Which way now?

ffcmike · #1 06-30-2009, 02:06 AM

This may come as a surprise to some,
but the first thing i'd like to make clear is that I believe the server being put down to UC could provide an opportunity.

Maybe people can forget about the past, and we can focus entirely ahead,
that's looking on the bright side anyway,
but from a Development standpoint, this could be easier for us to put the idea into practise, what have we got to lose?

The most important thing is that we can come up with a plan,
one that is well thought out but realistic, and that the majority if not everyone (Management, Admins, Staff, Players) can agree with it.
I definately have my own ideas, Storm has always had his vision on how a server should be built, I know some members of the Dev Team are creative and believe they know which direction the server should be heading, and i'm certain there are plenty of players out there with ideas.

Something else i'm hoping is that there may be some Developers out there across Graal who perhaps felt as if they wanted to help out on the server but that they didn't like the current setup or the direction it was heading in,
maybe withholding grudges would be asking too much but if there's any such people out there with any proposals or ideas who would otherwise be willing to help work on the server then we would be willing to change our setup and direction to accommodate them.

I've spoken to several members of the Dev Team tonight,
and i'm under the impression that everyone I spoke to would be in favour of restarting the Server from scratch,
using Default Systems,
building a small but efficient foundation where the Overworld would be small at first that would however allow us to expand outwards strategically towards a plan at a later point in time.
I know there are players out there who may be happy with the idea of the server being entirely Default, though perhaps there are some who would feel this measure would be too much of a step backwards, whichever way now is the time to make your opinions on where the server be headed be heard.

Having said that,
I still need to discuss things with Master Storm,
DC quitting was a possibility we had previously discussed and came to a couple of agreements over how it should be handled,
however there are other issues that remain undecided,
we weren't expecting the server to go UC but all I can say is that it could be a blessing in disguise if we make the most of it.

Luda · #2 06-30-2009, 02:21 AM

Why do both you and Master Storm only make threads and changes when you're at risk of being removed?

DustyPorViva · #3 06-30-2009, 02:25 AM

One thing I've noticed about Classic over the years under the management of MS... there's a lot of provoked and unprovoked chatter to try to raise the hope of the players. I say if someone isn't asking, then the best thing you can do to raise hope is to actually do something and show them that you actually mean business. I've read so many "inspirational" speeches from MS over the years and not a single damn thing he has claimed/said has been done.

ffcmike · #4 06-30-2009, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luda

Why do both you and Master Storm only make threads and changes when you're at risk of being removed?

Because now is a pretty important time to be contemplating changes,
and not a good time to be making personal attacks.

-Albus · #5 06-30-2009, 02:28 AM

Now is a very important time to start thinking about what is going to happen with Classic. Now, not years ago, but now.

Darlene159 · #6 06-30-2009, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Albus

Now is a very important time to start thinking about what is going to happen with Classic. Now, not years ago, but now.

Now is all there is.....

Luda · #7 06-30-2009, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Because now is a pretty important time to be contemplating changes,
and not a good time to be making personal attacks.

Oh, so before none of this was as important? It has only became obvious since your job is under threat? I don't see how it's a personal attack, it's the truth and everyone knows that.

Tigairius · #8 06-30-2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffcmike

restarting the Server from scratch,

I have one piece of advice for you:
Be careful, you're treading in dangerous waters with that decision. There is a really really good chance that you will never come back if you do that. Take my word for it, and just work backwards, instead of completely restarting. Start by converting classic to default hit detection then go from there, but don't restart from scratch.

If you restart from scratch you will be shocked when you are faced with such a large responsibility of remaking the server. Especially with your lack of development help.

Rufus · #9 06-30-2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Albus

Now is a very important time to start thinking about what is going to happen with Classic. Now, not years ago, but now.

The past is a very important factor in what people should hope to expect in the future, especially with the enormous track record and history Classic now has.

MysticX2X · #10 06-30-2009, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luda

Oh, so before none of this was as important? It has only became obvious since your job is under threat? I don't see how it's a personal attack, it's the truth and everyone knows that.

This matters why? Most of these ideas have been in the talks for a bit, and now that the server is in UC is the best time to consider it.

ffcmike · #11 06-30-2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Albus

Now is a very important time to start thinking about what is going to happen with Classic. Now, not years ago, but now.

Mistakes have been made,
and right from the start to the present,
no denying it,
but Classic hasn't always been in such a desperately bad situation has it?
Now it's got to the point where it's not a choice, but a necessity.
But on the bright side, mistakes can be learnt from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

One thing I've noticed about Classic over the years under the management of MS... there's a lot of provoked and unprovoked chatter to try to raise the hope of the players. I say if someone isn't asking, then the best thing you can do to raise hope is to actually do something and show them that you actually mean business. I've read so many "inspirational" speeches from MS over the years and not a single damn thing he has claimed/said has been done.

That's a fair point,
but do you have any suggestions as to what it is that should be done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luda

Oh, so before none of this was as important? It has only became obvious since your job is under threat? I don't see how it's a personal attack, it's the truth and everyone knows that.

My point was on the lines of there are more important things to worry about than my own position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I have one piece of advice for you:
Be careful, you're treading in dangerous waters with that decision. There is a really really good chance that you will never come back if you do that. Take my word for it, and just work backwards, instead of completely restarting. Start by converting classic to default hit detection then go from there, but don't restart from scratch.

If you restart from scratch you will be shocked when you are faced with such a large responsibility of remaking the server. Especially with your lack of development help.

It's not a decision that has been made,
or a concrete plan,
just an idea,
and i'm hoping for everyone with an idea to contribute it.
It is a possibile outcome though, but as i've said, the plan has to be realistic to begin with, I personally don't think it's realistic to expect to make one large and content filled server all at once, and ofcourse not absolutely everything needs to be remade from scratch, levels can be reused.

-Albus · #12 06-30-2009, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Mistakes have been made,
and right from the start to the present,
no denying it,
but Classic hasn't always been in such a desperately bad situation has it?
Now it's got to the point where it's not a choice, but a necessity.
But on the bright side, mistakes can be learnt from.

You're right, it was actually in halfway decent shape before storm took the server over.

Luda · #13 06-30-2009, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

This matters why? Most of these ideas have been in the talks for a bit, and now that the server is in UC is the best time to consider it.

Theres only effort being placed into "big changes" when there is a risk of bein removed, how does that not matter? Does the management need to be on the verge of removal every time we get attempts at change?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffcmike

My point was on the lines of there are more important things to worry about than my own position.

If you were concerned about the server as opposed to your position then why is this only happening now when ur on the edge of losing it?

maximus_asinus · #14 06-30-2009, 03:18 AM

I think moving back to default would probably be the best thing that can happen to Classic. I can see this move attracting more developers to Classic (since the bloated and complex system in place now was a huge deterrent even for the most skilled scripter).

All I can say is "finally". The PWA gave the management of Classic a wakeup call; Classic isn't invincible. Something has to change, and it has to change NOW. Whether or not the management of Classic recognizes the message and reacts is up to them.

I am willing to put some effort into rebuilding Classic. I will offer my services as LAT, although since I know the general opinion of me within Management is pretty negative I fully expect you guys to turn my offer down. If you're really trying to forgive, then send me a forum PM.

DustyPorViva · #15 06-30-2009, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffcmike

That's a fair point,
but do you have any suggestions as to what it is that should be done?

Less talk, more walk. Classic has gained a horrible track record over the years so no amount of talking is going to convince anyone you're going to do something. Wanna show them you're gonna do it? DO IT.

ffcmike · #16 06-30-2009, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luda

Theres only effort being placed into "big changes" when there is a risk of bein removed, how does that not matter? Does the management need to be on the verge of removal every time we get attempts at change?

If you were concerned about the server as opposed to your position then why is this only happening now when ur on the edge of losing it?

It wouldn't really make a difference whether i've been told the server has gone UC but my position is 100 percent safe, or i've been told the server has gone UC and i'll be removed if I can't get enough done about it,
i'd be just as responsible either way, because I don't want to see it remain UC.
However, I think it does provide some advantages that could give us a better chance of applying change.

crbgraal · #17 06-30-2009, 03:27 AM

Perhaps instead of 'nuke and rebuild', 'pull back and rebuild'? Cut the accesssable area down - Drop Destiny and anything only accessable through that, all the outlying islands, and most of the northern half of the main continent (Everything north of Supernick's, east of the section south of there, or west of Burger Refuge (except the Castle, which seems to already work :P), and block off Master Li's Woods and everything east of there perhaps?) - and focus on getting that working, for now. After that - and ONLY after that, and that includes breaking Zol's plumbing again :P - start fixing up an area adjacent to that, and release it when it's done. Effectively, cut Classic down and build outwards. That way, at least, you won't get to all the broken, empty areas and such.

Just my two cents.

Rufus · #18 06-30-2009, 03:28 AM

Something strikes me as odd here. The entire thread contradicts what DC has been posting recently, and after seeing for myself how inactive the Management has been in the last few months I can only assume he's right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

dev cant help without a scripting force, I'm one out of three and have to do admin work and some of the work of the management aswell(since they cant seem to do their own). The other 2/3's of the scripting team are AWOL(Thor and Storm). Classic's custom systems as well as Classic's 5 year infamy with administration and management tend to draw scripters away. There isn't a whole hell of a lot anyone can do anymore. Especially at the rate things need to be done. I have the two managers on one simple quest yet it has gone 2 months without much scripting done.

What I want to know is how this is all negated and why is everything being perceived as a great opportunity? Did you not support DC with scripting because you didn't agree with his direction, or was it because it wasn't your direction? Why did both yourself and Master Storm go AWOL even though the server was in a horrible state, yet you seem to be posting as though you have maximum concern for its well being? Why is it that since the Management Review you've only released one thing each, with Storm jumping straight in promoting a 'heavy activity' image, while yours was in spite of a comment I made about nothing being done? All of these things directly contradict what you've posted, and if you've suddenly had an epiphany then I'd question if it really is concerning the well being that sparked it off, more so your job being on the line.

MysticX2X · #19 06-30-2009, 03:54 AM

This thread is steering from it's original purpose is. In my opinion you should pm that person if you have some quarrel.

I'll get the thread back on track:
I think shaping the overworld fresh (keeping some of the old levels) is a great idea in addition to starting from default systems. Granted custom systems do have their advantages, but from personal experience, it can be terrible to try to script with them present since it's not documented very well. To even make a simple explosion wouldn't be too easy to figure out if youre some scripter new to classic.

Maybe hopefully when Classic resurfaces to the Classic Tab again it can be fresh and innovative while all the mistakes and problems it faces now can be melded down in UC. This might resurface the sparring community and the events/socializing community if things are done exactly right.

Only time can tell.

Rufus · #20 06-30-2009, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

This thread is steering from it's original purpose is. In my opinion you should pm that person if you have some quarrel.

No it's not, at all. This is a thread for the future direction of Classic, and I want to know why these two managers believe why they believe they can turn the server around and why now, especially since they've both done the complete opposite of what they have said they were going to do during the entire length of time that they've had their positions. There is no personal attacks here because nobody has "personally attacked" anyone. I proposed very straight forward and relevant questions; If they can't be answered, then that says a lot about the future of Classic with this administration. This thread should not be "what Bell wants to hear" which is how it started out, it should be the reality.

-Albus · #21 06-30-2009, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

This thread is steering from it's original purpose is.

And what exactly is the purpose? For Thor/Storm to come and make a few posts saying they have great things in store for Classic so Bell doesn't have to remove them from their positions? So that after a week, Classic can go back on the classic tab with nothing but more empty promises from the management?

That seems to be what the purpose of this thread is to me, and I don't like where it's going at all, so I would like to steer it as far from it's original purpose as possible.

Darlene159 · #22 06-30-2009, 04:20 AM

These threads never go anywhere. All some of you do is pick each other apart. Is that productive? No.
Stop it, and just give the management some ideas. Stop working backwards, and leave the past in the past. It is time to move FORWARD.
All your picking apart is NOT going to remove the management or any of the staff. You are only hurting the progression of the server, and yourselves.
If anyone has positive input, that's great! Help the server out. Give your ideas.
But for God's sake, stop picking each other apart because it is NOT helping.

I would love to see Classic just be Classic again, with the quests, and where guilds meant something. I know with all the new stuff, Classic will never be exactly the same, but the simplicity of it was what was so enjoyable.

-Albus · #23 06-30-2009, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darlene159

These threads never go anywhere. All some of you do is pick each other apart. Is that productive? No.
Stop it, and just give the management some ideas. Stop working backwards, and leave the past in the past. It is time to move FORWARD.
All your picking apart is NOT going to remove the management or any of the staff. You are only hurting the progression of the server, and yourselves.
If anyone has positive input, that's great! Help the server out. Give your ideas.
But for God's sake, stop picking each other apart because it is NOT helping.

I would love to see Classic just be Classic again, with the quests, and where guilds meant something. I know with all the new stuff, Classic will never be exactly the same, but the simplicity of it was what was so enjoyable.

I'm sure that I'm not alone when I say this, but I HAVE tried giving the management ideas. Unfortunately, posting on the forums likes this seems to be the only way of getting the attention of the management on this server.

I am all for moving forward and looking to the future, but Classic hasn't moved at all in the past few years.

MysticX2X · #24 06-30-2009, 04:28 AM

The purpose is to get feedback on a possible server plan that could affect Classic's future as a whole, which has been favored by a majority of the staff and any players who were interviewed of the idea before.. If you want to complain about the management, my suggestion would be to create a thread if you want publicity off of it. I realize they both have not been so active lately (particularly storm, hes been given too many chances imo), but not much now. Bell has already sent out the final warning by making Classic UC. I can't speak on behalf of them. I just am more interested in seeing player feedback on The thread purpose, then critcism of the management, which happens at every turn when they make a post because it's in line with some pwa involvement.

This also has been an idea since some time after Thor became Manager, so it's not some "new promise".

Darlene159 · #25 06-30-2009, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Albus

I'm sure that I'm not alone when I say this, but I HAVE tried giving the management ideas. Unfortunately, posting on the forums likes this seems to be the only way of getting the attention of the management on this server.

I am all for moving forward and looking to the future, but Classic hasn't moved at all in the past few years.

Tearing each other apart is not going to move it forward either, and I am sick of seeing it.........

ffcmike · #26 06-30-2009, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Less talk, more walk. Classic has gained a horrible track record over the years so no amount of talking is going to convince anyone you're going to do something. Wanna show them you're gonna do it? DO IT.

Again, ultimately you're right,
but another one of Classics problems over the years is lack of planning,
poor preperation will give you a poor product,
if you start working on something before you even know what it is you're working on you'll get nowhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

Something strikes me as odd here. The entire thread contradicts what DC has been posting recently, and after seeing for myself how inactive the Management has been in the last few months I can only assume he's right.

What I want to know is how this is all negated and why is everything being perceived as a great opportunity? Did you not support DC with scripting because you didn't agree with his direction, or was it because it wasn't your direction? Why did both yourself and Master Storm go AWOL even though the server was in a horrible state, yet you seem to be posting as though you have maximum concern for its well being? Why is it that since the Management Review you've only released one thing each, with Storm jumping straight in promoting a 'heavy activity' image, while yours was in spite of a comment I made about nothing being done? All of these things directly contradict what you've posted, and if you've suddenly had an epiphany then I'd question if it really is concerning the well being that sparked it off, more so your job being on the line.

I think you'll find that both me and Storm put more scripting effort and care into Mod Quest than DC himself, and i'm not trying to point fingers or lay blame,
he has said this in his own words, it was one of his self criticisms when he was considering quitting beforehand.
Was this project the idea of myself or Storm?
No, but despite that and the fact I was concerned about the lack of planning that had gone into it, I supported it, I got with Mystic and Storm and we not only started to figure out what we should do with it, but began working on some of those ideas.

As far as activity goes,
it's not that we've made a choice to go AWOL
work/learning/whatever comes before Graal,
it's been an issue with Storm for a while,
and perhaps he should have been removed or have decided to step down at some point in the past, but like it or not he's still here, he's still Manager, we're still depending on him to help move forward, and removing him isn't going to help with that.
In my case, it's not ideal, and something I wouldn't be willing to keep up as Manager if doing forever, but it's only a recent issue and one that won't last a great deal longer, but until then i'm still responsible for ensuring plans are in place and the fact that I am concerned about doing so is not a matter of protecting a jeopardised position, it's about moving forward in a time of further increased need.

And for the record, the Ticket Raffles release had nothing to do with your post,
it just happened to be ready at the time.

Hiro · #27 06-30-2009, 04:40 AM

why don't you make separate lists for what needs to be fixed, changed, and created. the criteria for the lists can be generated by posting in this thread. arguing the lists can come later - put everything that players suggest down and then go from there. it honestly sounds like you guys are doing most everything on a whim, you need to get organized instead of "WE ARE GONNA WORK ON CLASSIC NOW WE DON'T KNOW WHAT YET BUT WE ARE GONNA DO SOMETHING"

from what i can see from what people are saying, something like this arises:

1) hit detection back to normal
2) quests up/made
3) overworld reestablished
4) scripts converted/redone

since i hardly know much about anything on classic, i'm sure the actual community will be much more responsive for what needs to be done to the server; starting with the basics and adding on is you best bet right now

Mark Sir Link · #28 06-30-2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darlene159

blah blah blah

It's pretty obvious that a new manager would be constructive to the server.

MysticX2X · #29 06-30-2009, 05:20 AM

deja vu.

Luda · #30 06-30-2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

deja vu.

Not if Bell realizes that this is a joke.

Minoc · #31 06-30-2009, 06:11 AM

Revert the server.

It should be quite easy if you get rid of the NPC server.

Crono · #32 06-30-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoc

Revert the server.

It should be quite easy if you get rid of the NPC server.

Wouldn't the NPC server be required for the GMAP to work? If so then why would you ever want to go back to the older maps where you couldnt see players beyond your level?

DustyPorViva · #33 06-30-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoc

Revert the server.

It should be quite easy if you get rid of the NPC server.

Honestly, I think NPC server's are one of those things we take for granted. Working without an NPC server is such a cripple it's not even funny, especially when it comes to communicating between players.

Mark Sir Link · #34 06-30-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crono

Wouldn't the NPC server be required for the GMAP to work? If so then why would you ever want to go back to the older maps where you couldnt see players beyond your level?

text map

Minoc · #35 06-30-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crono

Wouldn't the NPC server be required for the GMAP to work? If so then why would you ever want to go back to the older maps where you couldnt see players beyond your level?

I don't recall not being able to see players beyond my level back in the day.
The point is to restore the old levels, and actually have quality content (that serves the server's purpose) within a short period of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Honestly, I think NPC server's are one of those things we take for granted. Working without an NPC server is such a cripple it's not even funny, especially when it comes to communicating between players.

I haven't noticed any difference in communication between players since 2000.
This server handled itself much better before the implementation of the NPC server, which messed everything up.

Crono · #36 06-30-2009, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

text map

wat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoc

I don't recall not being able to see players beyond my level back in the day.
The point is to restore the old levels, and actually have quality content (that serves the server's purpose) within a short period of time..

Check out Delteria, their current map is using the older .txt maps.

MysticX2X · #37 06-30-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoc

post

I don't think removing the NPC Server would work out in any servers best interest. Not to mention that I doubt it's even allowed to remove the NPC Server.

DustyPorViva · #38 06-30-2009, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoc

I haven't noticed any difference in communication between players since 2000.
This server handled itself much better before the implementation of the NPC server, which messed everything up.

Tell me how you would communicate data between players without an NPC server?

jorollychu · #39 06-30-2009, 06:49 AM

delete it. storm ****ed up big time and deserves all the blame.

Quote:

Tell me how you would communicate data between players without an NPC server?

what the **** are you saying? classic used to not have an npc server and it was the only server like that and it worked fine.

Minoc · #40 06-30-2009, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Tell me how you would communicate data between players without an NPC server?

Regular on-screen messages?
PMs?
Toalls?