Graalians come on! Lets do this.

[TheJames]

Hey guys, hows everyone doing? Good? Great. Okay heres what I've got to say. How many servers are out there, the gold ones. Like 30 some? And how many talented developers are out there working on seperate projects. Alot. A group of highly talented staff including NATS, GFX, Gani Designers, SFX. All of these people need to come together and develop a wonderfull server.

What do you players want? What interests you. I know as a player, a good community, pking, events, questing, and getting cash. Everyone loves money on a playerworld don't lie. We all need to get together and develop one kick ass server. With its own original ideas, concepts, and all own GFX .

Let me hear some feedback on some ideas for a playerworld that would attract alot of players . Also. Developers drop me some feedback if your interested. We can do this guys.

[warp2ukew]

Theres like 1 thread per page of the playerworld forum saying this, STOP. It's not going to happen, especially when a nobody tries to bring them together (no offense).

[TheJames]

Well i'm that somebody warp2ukew.

[Tom]

Well the graal staff could probably do this, as all the good developers want to be globals, all the staff need to do is hire them, and then they have them on their belt

[DARKVILLIN]

i can't release my own ideas sorry, they are too great

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by TheJames

Well i'm that somebody warp2ukew.

Yeah and what makes you qualified to be that person?

[gravator]

Originally Posted by DARKVILLIN

i can't release my own ideas sorry, they are too great

That's what everyone thinks really, and it's a darn shame that everyone has so much distrust with each other, that's one reason not many servers are on the list yet, and over half of them are barely holding onto players.

[killerogue]

Originally Posted by DARKVILLIN

i can't release my own ideas sorry, they are too great

i wanna kno :[

Originally Posted by gravator

That's what everyone thinks really, and it's a darn shame that everyone has so much distrust with each other, that's one reason not many servers are on the list yet, and over half of them are barely holding onto players.

nosrry do > all pertaining to new graal ideas :O!

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by gravator

That's what everyone thinks really, and it's a darn shame that everyone has so much distrust with each other, that's one reason not many servers are on the list yet, and over half of them are barely holding onto players.

I agree

[killerogue]

But on a more dismal note. This idea fails at birth. :[

It just won't work. Because all the best developers are, lazy + extreme ego. <.<

[konidias]

There's not many talented developers. There's just an illusion. There's probably about a dozen talented developers on all of Graal. The rest are limited to one particular area of expertise, and even then... they aren't experts. I've hired lots of staff over the years who were supposed to be some of the best on Graal, only to find out that they can only make certain stuff, or aren't as good as people say they are...

Then with the roughly dozen or so talented developers, you only have about half that wouldn't be corrupt/demand rights for no reason. The remaining half dozen either lose interest in projects or want to go off and make their own server.

With all that being said, I'm probably being generous with the amount of talented devs there are on Graal. By talented I mean people who could possibly work on professional games run by large companies. In reality there's probably like two or three people that could do this. (based on overall abilities, professionalism, maturity, dedication, and commitment)

[killerogue]

Originally Posted by konidias

stuff

Agreed.

[Inspiration]

You don't need much talent to make a project good.

Honestly, you don't need ANY talent, you just need good planning and hard workers.

There are tons of non-talented GFX and Level makers that can produce content that's perfectly good for an overworld, and tons of non-talented scripters that know enough to be able to make events, NPCWs, ect.

What they need is guidance and the drive to work hard.

[Shotoo2]

Originally Posted by konidias

The rest are limited to one particular area of expertise

I can make some pretty sweet Era levels.

[DustyPorViva]

The community, while giving Graal the life it has, is also its biggest downfall.
When I used to work on servers, one thing there always was, was conflict between staff. Everyday there was some kind of drama between one staff member and another. The populace of Graal just isn't able to pull together, and never will be, it's been talked about for years. For every decent person, there are 5 jerks that will bring them down for whatever reason. Asking that people come together is never going to work, you can't just make people mature if you ask them, sadly.

Anyways, about the pity that everyone distrusts everyone else... well, it's a pity that people are always willing to steal others work just to get themselves ahead. People would be a lot more trusting if the community could be trusted a lot more.

Only way this could even remotely ever happen is if you scrap every player-owned server and put one up and say, "everyone get along and work on this one server or get lost," and I'm guessing they'd get lost instead.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

You don't need much talent to make a project good.

Honestly, you don't need ANY talent, you just need good planning and hard workers.

There are tons of non-talented GFX and Level makers that can produce content that's perfectly good for an overworld, and tons of non-talented scripters that know enough to be able to make events, NPCWs, ect.

What they need is guidance and the drive to work hard.

I don't know what you're considering good... but I'm considering "good" as better than anything Graal has to offer right now... so no, I don't think non-talented people can make good content...

People who think like you are the same people who wonder why I turn them down when they offer to help my server. They just aren't good enough. Even if I tell them they aren't at a good enough level, they will still think I'm just being a jerk or something. I'm being honest... We *do* need to improve the quality of Graal but telling non-talented people that they can make good stuff is just nonsense.

[DustyPorViva]

Planning and hard-working is not going to make good content, no matter what. The whole "A" for effort thing doesn't work when making games. If you're not talented, and keep working on scripts, isn't going to make them work just because you try. If you keep trying doesn't make your graphics look better if you don't have the talent for it. It may, may, work for LATing, but not for scripting or graphics. There is so much involved in scripting hard-work isn't going to make scripts work. And if they do, and you're not very talented in it, it probably isn't going to be efficient... and a whole server of NPCs like that will show its true problems.
You do need talent, at least for Graal. Maybe way back during Atari and Commodore talent wasn't that special, but now its what people look for. Simple graphics don't cut it, simple games don't either. People want more.

[smirt362]

Originally Posted by konidias

I don't know what you're considering good... but I'm considering "good" as better than anything Graal has to offer right now... so no, I don't think non-talented people can make good content...

People who think like you are the same people who wonder why I turn them down when they offer to help my server. They just aren't good enough. Even if I tell them they aren't at a good enough level, they will still think I'm just being a jerk or something. I'm being honest... We *do* need to improve the quality of Graal but telling non-talented people that they can make good stuff is just nonsense.

I know I'm not good enough...cant even draw a stupid cabbage plant

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by konidias

I don't know what you're considering good... but I'm considering "good" as better than anything Graal has to offer right now... so no, I don't think non-talented people can make good content...

You can only expect a certain amount of quality from unpaid workers.


Someone could be a good cook at home. That does not mean they could work at a rastaurant serving $45 a plate meals.

They're still good, their food is enjoyable, and you look forward to eating it. But it's not their job, it's their hobby.

It's the same way in Graal. A lot of people produce good quality spare time/hobby material.

If you hire people and expect more than that out of them, you also better be willing to compensate them for their time and effort, most likely with cash.

If you consider someone good someone that could get a legit job at a game company, and you're also saying you'd like to see people like this produce content for graal, you're out of your mind.

That simple.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Planning and hard-working is not going to make good content, no matter what. The whole "A" for effort thing doesn't work when making games. If you're not talented, and keep working on scripts, isn't going to make them work just because you try. If you keep trying doesn't make your graphics look better if you don't have the talent for it. It may, may, work for LATing, but not for scripting or graphics. There is so much involved in scripting hard-work isn't going to make scripts work. And if they do, and you're not very talented in it, it probably isn't going to be efficient... and a whole server of NPCs like that will show its true problems.

So what you're saying is you can't be good at something you're not talented at? Practice counts for little to nothing?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

You do need talent, at least for Graal. Maybe way back during Atari and Commodore talent wasn't that special, but now its what people look for. Simple graphics don't cut it, simple games don't either. People want more.

If people wanted more than Graal, they'd play something other than Graal. We're not talking about something other than Graal, we're talking about Graal.

Many people enjoy this game because of the simplicity factor. There is a whole world of professionally made games by talented developers out there. If that's what people what, that's what they're playing.

[Draenin]

If I were doing some stuff with a server, I'd probably hire one or two people who specialize in one area, rather than trying to hire people that try to be jacks of all trades.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

So what you're saying is you can't be good at something you're not talented at? Practice counts for little to nothing?

If you practice and you become good, then you become talented at it and your point is null. When you first play the piano, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to be able to put on a performance people will pay to watch. If you practice and become talented, then perhaps they will... but just basing off hard work instead of talent? Not gonna work.

Originally Posted by Inspiration

If people wanted more than Graal, they'd play something other than Graal. We're not talking about something other than Graal, we're talking about Graal.

Many people enjoy this game because of the simplicity factor. There is a whole world of professionally made games by talented developers out there. If that's what people what, that's what they're playing.

The problem is... not many people are playing. That's what this whole thread is about, people coming together to make something good people will actually want to play. Obviosly, from the various threads about people wanting people to come together to make something big, the many people trying to make huge servers that are better than others, people do want more than what Graal is offering. If you're saying there's nothing wrong with Graal as it is, which is what your reply sounds like, then you have to take a good look around you. Graal has been going down the crapper for a long time, and it's done nothing to plunger itself out.

... And just because I said that people are looking for more, doesn't mean they're looking for highly realistic graphics. They're looking for better quality graphics, even if they're simple. Graphics need to be polished, sharp, clean... they need to be drawn with talent. Simple graphics are fine, but simple!=crappy/not to good. Link to the Past had very simple graphics(which Graal's are based off of) and were great for its time.

[Shotoo2]

Originally Posted by Draenin

jacks of all trades.

Those are usually the ones with a 10 minute attention span that jump from project to project for a while until they suddenly quit and say they got bored.

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

If you practice and you become good, then you become talented at it and your point is null. When you first play the piano, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to be able to put on a performance people will pay to watch. If you practice and become talented, then perhaps they will... but just basing off hard work instead of talent? Not gonna work.

Talent is a natural aptitude for something. You can't work at naturally having a nack for any given task,as it's something innate.

Skill can be gained through dedication and hard work, and talent is not needed to be a skilled person of creative abilities.

It's likely a skilled worker and a talented worker could produce a comparable quality of work, but chances are the talented worker was able to learn to do so much quicker.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

If you're saying there's nothing wrong with Graal as it is, which is what your reply sounds like, then you have to take a good look around you.

My reply sounds like nothing of the sort. I stated many people enjoy Graal because of it's simplicity, which is true. I did not state that because many people enjoy an element of the product, the product is thus flawless.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Graal has been going down the crapper for a long time, and it's done nothing to plunger itself out.

Graal's decline has a lot to do with superior looking/playing free competition, a lack ofadvertisement, and a lot of broken promises from the Administration. While this does have a direct effect on the content we can produce, we can do little to nothing to alter this trend.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

... And just because I said that people are looking for more, doesn't mean they're looking for highly realistic graphics. They're looking for better quality graphics, even if they're simple. Graphics need to be polished, sharp, clean... they need to be drawn with talent. Simple graphics are fine, but simple!=crappy/not to good. Link to the Past had very simple graphics(which Graal's are based off of) and were great for its time.

Again you're putting words in my mouth. I stated that if people were looking for something more than Graal, they'd play something else. I didnt say that more than Graal must mean a realistic looking game.

Beyond that, I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Link to the past had pretty good graphics for it's time. Graal will never have good graphics for it's time.

Graal already offers many server with good quality graphical work. This graphical work does not look much at all like a professionally made games graphics, but a lot of it is still good for graal.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

Talent is a natural aptitude for something. You can't work at naturally having a nack for any given task,as it's something innate.

Skill can be gained through dedication and hard work, and talent is not needed to be a skilled person of creative abilities.

It's likely a skilled worker and a talented worker could produce a comparable quality of work, but chances are the talented worker was able to learn to do so much quicker.

Then I must have used the wrong word. Skill, is what I should have used then. Either way hard work is not a substitute for skill or talent. If hard work gains you skill through practice, then so be it. But hard work on its own, and planning, will not net you the same results a skilled or talented person could.

Graal's decline has a lot to do with superior looking/playing free competition, a lack ofadvertisement, and a lot of broken promises from the Administration. While this does have a direct effect on the content we can produce, we can do little to nothing to alter this trend.

Perhaps not, but a good server could bring those who don't play and just spend a few minutes chatting to friends or on the forums back. Though many have lost their appeal to play Graal, they still stick around for whatever reason.

Again you're putting words in my mouth. I stated that if people were looking for something more than Graal, they'd play something else. I didnt say that more than Graal must mean a realistic looking game.

Beyond that, I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Link to the past had pretty good graphics for it's time. Graal will never have good graphics for it's time.

Graal already offers many server with good quality graphical work. This graphical work does not look much at all like a professionally made games graphics, but a lot of it is still good for graal.

I originally stated that Graal needs to offer more in terms of graphics and scripting than just what hard work can produce. You responded that if people wanted more they would get something else. I'm not putting words in your mouth, you perhaps misunderstood what I originally was pointing out. Graal needs to step up. You were trying to get at that hard work and good planning will bring good content. Perhaps because of the use of the word talent this has all been a misunderstanding. But hard work and planning is not a substitute for skill and/or talent. You said if people wanted something more than Graal they would get it, but people do want something more. Look at all the threads and tell me they don't. Planning and hard work do indeed bring good outcome, but only if they can be executed. I retract all current statements of talent and replace them with skill. Graal does need to bring more to the table, it's been an issue for a long time, and people do want more from Graal. Just because they're still here doesn't mean they don't want more... they're just dedicated, or whatever.

And the whole, "it's good for Graal" is exactly the problem. There should never be a low standard just because it's Graal. Sure, Graal may not have professional workers, but it should still try to deliver. We may not be able to find the skill to do so, but that doesn't mean we should turn a cheek, it's still a problem. I may understand that, and you may understand that, but that doesn't just make it right, it's still a problem that may one day be remedied, like this thread is about.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

You can only expect a certain amount of quality from unpaid workers.


Someone could be a good cook at home. That does not mean they could work at a rastaurant serving $45 a plate meals.

They're still good, their food is enjoyable, and you look forward to eating it. But it's not their job, it's their hobby.

It's the same way in Graal. A lot of people produce good quality spare time/hobby material.

If you hire people and expect more than that out of them, you also better be willing to compensate them for their time and effort, most likely with cash.

If you consider someone good someone that could get a legit job at a game company, and you're also saying you'd like to see people like this produce content for graal, you're out of your mind.

That simple.


So what you're saying is you can't be good at something you're not talented at? Practice counts for little to nothing?



If people wanted more than Graal, they'd play something other than Graal. We're not talking about something other than Graal, we're talking about Graal.

Many people enjoy this game because of the simplicity factor. There is a whole world of professionally made games by talented developers out there. If that's what people what, that's what they're playing.

You don't have to be professional to do professional quality work. You can make gourmet meals as a hobby that might even blow away professional chefs... it doesn't mean you have to get paid to do it.

Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean that quality doesn't matter. When people make model airplanes for a hobby, you have some people who can only do the basics and some people that make such amazing models that they should be on display in a museum. Yet they both get paid nothing to do it.

Simplicity doesn't have anything to do with quality. Mario is a simple game yet it has GREATLY changed in quality since it's creation. There are thousands of talented individuals out there who do not get paid for their hobby.

Look at any design school you could go to. Every one of them will tell you the same thing. "You can work hard but you must have some natural creative talent in order to be in this field." It doesn't matter how hard somebody works to be a great musician or artist or scripter... if you just lack talent in it, then it wasn't meant to be. It's sad but it's true. Someone who draws stick figures at the age of 16 has very little chance of drawing dazzling artwork if they worked at it their entire life.

[smirt362]

Originally Posted by konidias

Look at any design school you could go to. Every one of them will tell you the same thing. "You can work hard but you must have some natural creative talent in order to be in this field." It doesn't matter how hard somebody works to be a great musician or artist or scripter... if you just lack talent in it, then it wasn't meant to be. It's sad but it's true. Someone who draws stick figures at the age of 16 has very little chance of drawing dazzling artwork if they worked at it their entire life.

Not to say that you couldn't make a living out of stick figures...
*points to sig*

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by konidias

You don't have to be professional to do professional quality work. You can make gourmet meals as a hobby that might even blow away professional chefs... it doesn't mean you have to get paid to do it.

True, but if they had that level of skill, chances are they would not be producing meals for everyone for free on a daily basis, except of course if it was their family, but that's getting pretty far from my point, which is hobby level skill is what we're dealing with here.

Originally Posted by konidias

Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean that quality doesn't matter. When people make model airplanes for a hobby, you have some people who can only do the basics and some people that make such amazing models that they should be on display in a museum. Yet they both get paid nothing to do it.

Yeah, and they produce these models for their own pleasure, on their own terms, and in their own time. I'm sure if anyone started requesting them to make models for them, they'd want some sort of compenstation for their time.




My overall point remains. You're not going to be able to make people work for you for any long period of time, and produce "professional" quality work without paying them.

If someone is that good, they will either produce stuff on their own terms for their own enjoyment (Kaimetsu, anyone?), they will head their own project, or they will want compensation for their work, and in all reality they have every right to.

[DustyPorViva]

And that's the problem.
Way back when, Graal used to be ran by Stefan. Development was conducted by Stefan and work was done as a hobby by others.
Now Graal is relying on people to make the content, instead of just accepting it. I don't think any of us are denying the fact that it's hard to get good quality work done for free... I think everyone's main point is that the support just isn't there, and if it is they're off doing their own thing.

[Chandler]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

And that's the problem.
Way back when, Graal used to be ran by Stefan. Development was conducted by Stefan and work was done as a hobby by others.
Now Graal is relying on people to make the content, instead of just accepting it. I don't think any of us are denying the fact that it's hard to get good quality work done for free... I think everyone's main point is that the support just isn't there, and if it is they're off doing their own thing.

I think that the support is there, I think that people would rather play the game instead of creating it.

[PrinceDark]

When I used to work on servers, one thing there always was, was conflict between staff. Everyday there was some kind of drama between one staff member and another. The populace of Graal just isn't able to pull together, and never will be, it's been talked about for years.

Best point to prove why the thread creators idea will never work.

[Devil]

I'm waiting until Graal3d comes.. and good developers leave 2d, and their playerworlds for 3d... should see some good stuff then.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Devil

I'm waiting until Graal3d comes.. and good developers leave 2d, and their playerworlds for 3d... should see some good stuff then.

You can hardly find good enough developers on this game to cover mid-grade 2d development for free.

How do you think they are going to be able to fare with 3d development, also for free?

We havent seen a real new classic playerworld in years that lasted very long (except Zodiac, but its stupid in its current condition).

[zokemon]

Originally Posted by Devil

I'm waiting until Graal3d comes.. and good developers leave 2d, and their playerworlds for 3d... should see some good stuff then.

I agree, sir.

Originally Posted by Andy0687

You can hardly find good enough developers on this game to cover mid-grade 2d development for free.

How do you think they are going to be able to fare with 3d development, also for free?

We havent seen a real new classic playerworld in years that lasted very long (except Zodiac, but its stupid in its current condition).

Because 2D skills are so much different. 3D on the other hand melds a lot of things together. If you are good at terrain or building construction, you most likely can do a lot with character or item models too. 3D is also a lot more math oriented and is usually easier for the general scripter to get a hold of.

I know for one that I am MUCH better at 3D modeling then I am at pixel art. I still wouldn't call my self a graphic artist though.

[Elk]

elks probably going to make his own server soon

[smirt362]

Originally Posted by Elk

elks probably going to make his own server soon

What about Terestria? D:
I thought you were going to help us with that.

[Devil]

Originally Posted by smirt362

What about Terestria? D:
I thought you were going to help us with that.

Jokes on you for thinking Elk is reliable LOL

[Googi]

Originally Posted by TheJames

We all need to get together and develop one kick ass server. With its own original ideas, concepts, and all own GFX .

Yeah? And just what development skills will you be contributing?

[killerogue]

Originally Posted by smirt362

What about Terestria? D:
I thought you were going to help us with that.

AMAGAD.

Come on Smirt. I can't believe you didn't expect that.

[smirt362]

Originally Posted by killerogue

AMAGAD.

Come on Smirt. I can't believe you didn't expect that.

I thought...he had changed a little

[Lord Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Elk

lord sephiroth, times change, were not kids anymore like you are right now