Pwa

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I don't agree with hiring admins in this way.
Alot of times, the best likely candidate might be someone who is not so popular, or is known for being a stickler for the rules, and not liked very much for that reason.
Afterall, staff of anykind should be able to follow/enforce the Graal rules consistantly, and completely...but especially someone who is hired as Global staff who is in control of other staff, or staff who is in control of Graal as a whole.
Global staff should not be hired just because they are well known and liked...there are alot of other things to look at in a candidate, and they should be hired by Stefan and/or Unixmad, but they could get input about people from other Globals who are active on Graal (or someone that they know and trust), and might know candidates better than they would.

I agree.

[Infernix]

Originally Posted by Damix2

What the hell? He can't fix something if he doesn't know what wrong. Are you just plain ignorant?

No, pretty sure I know well enough when I see a childish arguement comming.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

Actually if I remember correct and the situation i am actually talking about would have been the open PWA Team thing with which im positive you were hired in.

It was done somewhat poorly as well, banking mostly on having the most "Managers" or global staff on your side would get you further on. It shaped up to be a bit of a popularity contest as well.

Oh you mean the public app. Yeah. That wasn't done super well, but I really think we got a few good ones out of it. Besides Kisharha . If I were the admin and was in need of people I would probably put out an application also but make it less final; more of an informational purpose to see who's out there and what they want to do.

I had thought you meant the Koni/Kamuii vote.

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I don't agree with hiring admins in this way.
Alot of times, the best likely candidate might be someone who is not so popular, or is known for being a stickler for the rules, and not liked very much for that reason.
Afterall, staff of anykind should be able to follow/enforce the Graal rules consistantly, and completely...but especially someone who is hired as Global staff who is in control of other staff, or staff who is in control of Graal as a whole.
Global staff should not be hired just because they are well known and liked...there are alot of other things to look at in a candidate, and they should be hired by Stefan and/or Unixmad, but they could get input about people from other Globals who are active on Graal (or someone that they know and trust), and might know candidates better than they would.

I agree that Stefan/Unixmad should be hand picking candidates based on good advice and impressions from existing staff members. However, I also do not approve of apointing a new member without discussing it with the current team you're adding that person to. We've found it to be very disruptive to our teamwork.

Originally Posted by Infernix

No, pretty sure I know well enough when I see a childish arguement comming.

Moon Goddess is posting in the thread so I think any childishness will be corked before it gets out of hand. I'm willing to take the risk to find out ways we can improve. Aren't you?

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Oh you mean the public app. Yeah. That wasn't done super well, but I really think we got a few good ones out of it. Besides Kisharha .

I agree, that you got a few good PWA who are or are not still around (Spark went on to become Global Admin, VT Quit, to name a few).

I agree that Stefan/Unixmad should be hand picking candidates based on good advice and impressions from existing staff members.

I semi agree with this, the problem is that if Stefan/Unixmad pick alone then you get situations where just people THEY trust are put in, i agree they SHOULD trust who they are putting in, but look what happened with Nemesis.

I know what you said next, i address that in a sec.

However, I also do not approve of apointing a new member without discussing it with the current team you're adding that person to.

That could work also, but then wouldnt you get more of an absolutist attitude? I forget what happened between the transition of Genmo to Jinx (Or maybe it was Genmo -> Nemesis, its been so long).

Anyways you could run into a "I dont like [x]" and then they say "Well we feel [x] is the best canadate, so too bad"

Letting players pick is also a poor idea, a job like this should not be a popularity contest. Which is what Nemesis tried to turn everything into.
(We addressed the Kish thing already, I think that is a form of popularity).

The real problem is finding out what is best, and doing it.

Moon Goddess had said "...the best likely candidate might be someone who is not so popular, or is known for being a stickler for the rules, and not liked very much for that reason."

we can agree that it is most probably true, but some people can go from joking about and bending the rules, to do what is needed when it is needed.

The problem I see as well as you said Moon Goddess, is that the people who control graal as a whole should basically know what to do, one of the main problems is most of them either dont, or the ones higher up then them dont have the proper control or the proper channels to get that control.

I could go on for a bit longer but I think I said enough for now.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I agree that Stefan/Unixmad should be hand picking candidates based on good advice and impressions from existing staff members. However, I also do not approve of apointing a new member without discussing it with the current team you're adding that person to. We've found it to be very disruptive to our teamwork.

Oh, I agree fully that it should also be discussed with current PWA, but I don't think saying yes or no to hiring someone should be based solely on the pwa members opinions.
I think it should be all globals together discussing another globals hiring, for input and such.

[Malinko]

Disruptive? You need an ass to disrupt the team to balance such biased efforts, which I do.

In addition, how does one member of the Playerworld Administration who inspects a world revolve around the other members? The ONLY thing that revolves around other members is to see if other members have inspected the worlds to have enough of a decision to pass a world, but we've seen that as it is with the current Playerworld Administration, hah.

Other than that, YOU can inspect a world on YOUR own time and just give it a fail or pass based on what is thought of the world, it doesn't interrupt work. Stop making excuses.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Malinko

Disruptive? You need an ass to disrupt the team to balance such biased efforts, which I do.

In addition, how does one member of the Playerworld Administration who inspects a world revolve around the other members? The ONLY thing that revolves around other members is to see if other members have inspected the worlds to have enough of a decision to pass a world, but we've seen that as it is with the current Playerworld Administration, hah.

Other than that, YOU can inspect a world on YOUR own time and just give it a fail or pass based on what is thought of the world, it doesn't interrupt work. Stop making excuses.

I think this was directed at me and I had to read it through quite a few times before I reached this point. I think I understand what you were getting at.

You are asking how can you be disruptive when the only way we effect each other is during an inspection, where all of us inspect a world?

Now, if that's what you're asking, you starting an argument here in the public forum is a good example of one of the many ways a PWA can be disruptive to another member of the team. Bickering with other members confuses people and shows a lack of professionalism and order that this job demands.

If you would like to discuss this with me any further you can forum PM me or contact me in the usual places. Going on any further would be both uninteresting to the public, and inappropriate in front of them.

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Oh, I agree fully that it should also be discussed with current PWA, but I don't think saying yes or no to hiring someone should be based solely on the pwa members opinions.
I think it should be all globals together discussing another globals hiring, for input and such.

I can respond to you and Andy on the same issue here: I agree with both of you.

I said all hiring to a team should be discussed with the team, I didn't say everybody has to agree. However, saying "Lol, he's on your team now" and everybody being confused and irritated is a bad way to operate.

As for who it's discussed with: generally (while i didn't mention it) all the globals and prominent members of the community discuss new candidates for globals, which i comepletely approve of, and I think that should be our permanent policy for input's sake.

[Mykel]

I think this poll speaks volumes. When 72.34% of the people who voted think you are doing poor or worse, it says something. Especially considering the number of people who voted.

I'm not saying that everyone isn't doing what they are supposed to, but you can't just shrug it off and say that you don't care if other people think you aren't doing a good job, considering you are supposed to be pleasing the customer. But that is one of the biggest problems with GO being staffed by a majority of players. Very little incentive.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Mykel

I think this poll speaks volumes. When 72.34% of the people who voted think you are doing poor or worse, it says something. Especially considering the number of people who voted.

I'm not saying that everyone isn't doing what they are supposed to, but you can't just shrug it off and say that you don't care if other people think you aren't doing a good job, considering you are supposed to be pleasing the customer. But that is one of the biggest problems with GO being staffed by a majority of players. Very little incentive.

Well, I personally lost my super motivation when I hit the ceiling. When your superiors don't care as much as you do it's a big let down and really kills all your initiative. Btw, in the absence of an acting PWA chief, Stefan is PWA chief.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Mykel

I think this poll speaks volumes. When 72.34% of the people who voted think you are doing poor or worse, it says something. Especially considering the number of people who voted.

I'm not saying that everyone isn't doing what they are supposed to, but you can't just shrug it off and say that you don't care if other people think you aren't doing a good job, considering you are supposed to be pleasing the customer. But that is one of the biggest problems with GO being staffed by a majority of players. Very little incentive.

Most of the people who voted didn't even give reasons, so that leaves the question of "is the reason valid or not".
Giving reasons would be helpful so that the team could possibly work on whatever it is, if possible, otherwise they are just flying in the dark so to speak.

Personally, I can't say how the pwa team are doing as I don 't deal with them anymore, but the main problem in staff positions seems to be consistancy, equalization (meaning everyone/everything should be treated equally), and professionalism.

Pleasing the players?
Impossible....why?
Because when any staff member does their job, they become hated over time....why?
Because the majority of the Graal members DO NOT want to have to follow any kind of rules, they simply want to do what they want, and not be told that they can't do somethinhg because of rules.

It is simple, alot of Graalians like corruptness as long as they benefit from it, and it doesn't hurt them, but the minute it does, they run screaming to higher ups.

[Warcaptain]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Well, I personally lost my super motivation when I hit the ceiling. When your superiors don't care as much as you do it's a big let down and really kills all your initiative. Btw, in the absence of an acting PWA chief, Stefan is PWA chief.

well from what i hear.. you have a problem with someone being PW Admin besides you. throwing a fit when stefan wanted to hire someone else, no?

maybe if you let him hire who he wanted regardless of how long you have been PWA we would have an admin.

it seems to me that all you PWA can talk about is PW Admin.. is that all you all are thinking about.. being the administrator?

[Shotoo2]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

shows a lack of professionalism

Didn't you have your RC removed on Era or something for abusing your powers?

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

When your superiors don't care as much as you do it's a big let down and really kills all your initiative.

That was what I hated, too. Trying to get simple things done was like pulling teeth, only the teeth were held in place by cement, because nothing ever happened.

[Sulukra]

Well, I voted O.K. for the PWA. In my experiences, they aren't exactly terrible. But then again, their response time to most Hosted inspections (In my experience) has been slow.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Shotoo2

Didn't you have your RC removed on Era or something for abusing your powers?

No... That was Malinko that abused rights. Malinko was told by Stefan to never log on RC there unless it's absolutely needed. Houdini can log on anytime he wants to.

but we don't want him to D:

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Is it fair to point out certain people's good and bad points?
It's basically 'bashing' the members of the pwa. If you didn't have an opinion on the PWA and answered the question, I wouldn't mind.

Boohoo. I think they can handle a few bad things said about them.

Don't tell on us though, please?

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Warcaptain

well from what i hear.. you have a problem with someone being PW Admin besides you. throwing a fit when stefan wanted to hire someone else, no?

maybe if you let him hire who he wanted regardless of how long you have been PWA we would have an admin.

it seems to me that all you PWA can talk about is PW Admin.. is that all you all are thinking about.. being the administrator?

Where did you get this idea?... Given the situation though, I don't think anybody else has the experience with Graal, or more importantly, people.

However, I don't think that a PWA Admin will help anything outside the team, and inside, only the team's organization. Unixmad won't give out any more high level RCs after Nemesis, and I doubt the PWA Admin's opinion alone could have somebody that Stefan appointed to PWA fired. So it's not exactly a huge deal to be PWA admin if you're a PWA already.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Sulukra

Well, I voted O.K. for the PWA. In my experiences, they aren't exactly terrible. But then again, their response time to most Hosted inspections (In my experience) has been slow.

Mine as well, but they do have quite a few servers to inspect, and each one takes time. I will note however, that quite a few were glad to take a look at my server, and inspected it quickly. It takes time though, oh well. They do have a lot to look at, but I also think that some of the requirements for hosted tab are a bit high, it would take less time if they had less to look for.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Unixmad won't give out any more high level RCs after Nemesis,

Maybe its time to start acting like a buisness then for a change, dont run scared to the dark when something happens, but find a way to go on, not everyone is like Nemesis. I would go as far as to say only the people who see what he did as "A good way to go out" would be like him.

I would suggest some kind of more indepth legal contract with global members, they are "STAFF" on this game, and this game is owned by a company, am i right so far? When you apply for a job anywhere else, you agree to some terms, sure when we all register an account we agree to the "Terms of Service" but Globals should have yet another set they agree too, that are not only game rules, but more like legal rules.

and I doubt the PWA Admin's opinion alone could have somebody that Stefan appointed to PWA fired.

I can guarantee that your opinion is correct, as one of the top two people on the game, his opinion is more or less absolute, no matter who likes it and why.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

Maybe its time to start acting like a buisness then for a change, dont run scared to the dark when something happens, but find a way to go on, not everyone is like Nemesis. I would go as far as to say only the people who see what he did as "A good way to go out" would be like him.

I would suggest some kind of more indepth legal contract with global members, they are "STAFF" on this game, and this game is owned by a company, am i right so far? When you apply for a job anywhere else, you agree to some terms, sure when we all register an account we agree to the "Terms of Service" but Globals should have yet another set they agree too, that are not only game rules, but more like legal rules.

That would be great because it would require legal accountability, and would also probably bump up the age of global staff to over 18. Either that, or at least very mature children who's parents agree to vouch for their behavior.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

at least very mature children who's parents agree to vouch for their behavior.

Big fat no.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Curt1zzle

Big fat no.

*Shrug* I'm just allowing for flukes.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

That would be great because it would require legal accountability, and would also probably bump up the age of global staff to over 18. Either that, or at least very mature children who's parents agree to vouch for their behavior.

You would need to get rid of the immature ones first. Starting with a certain PWA member that wouldn't admit his past transgressions when faced with hard proof... But wait, nobody cares anymore.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Chris

You would need to get rid of the immature ones first. Starting with a certain PWA member that wouldn't admit his past transgressions when faced with hard proof... But wait, nobody cares anymore.

Thatd be one of the major problems, in order for this to work the people issuing the contracts would need to care what is happening in the game with the globals. The players made the game (not the client, most of the content) yet, the players have no real say.

Its nearly too fargone to change now, the same mistakes have been made over and over for years, and some of the mistakes have never been fixed, when allowed to continue for years.

Thats why the playerbase of graal went from nearly 3 or 4000 (I remember 3 as being a more prominate number). To hardly 1000+ At the absolute best.

Ive heard people say graal is "growing" but it isnt even anywhere near where it used to be, so it cant be considered growing until everything is fixed.

[Clash]

I don't even want to comment, because I have absolutely nothing nice to say about how Graal is currently run or the current situation on the PWA, specifically the one concerning Malinko.

And my parents always said "If you don' got nuttin good to say, dun say it at all, y'all know? Now shuddup be'for I smack ya one on yer ass.".

That and the fact supermom will delete my post if I say anything down to earth off from my heart, because it'd be seen as "against the rules" and I'd be told to make a support ticket.

So honestly, it's pointless to try to be radical here, transmit some rage, and prove a point if it just gets deleted. This might be one of the biggest problems, a lack of verbal freedom. Hint hint.

Or maybe I'm just calming down and becoming a solemn young man.

[Andy0687]

[QUOTE=Clash]I don't even want to comment, because I have absolutely nothing nice to say about how Graal is currently run or the current situation on the PWA, specifically the one concerning Malinko. [quote]

I get it but if you dont say anything, then everything just looks good to everyone else. Do not be afraid to speak up sometimes someone shares your opinion.

That and the fact supermom will delete my post if I say anything down to earth off from my heart, because it'd be seen as "against the rules" and I'd be told to make a support ticket.

I dont think any genuine well thought out posts in this thread have been deleted yet, and many of them are going borderline bashing (including a post by the op).

Its in a hope that they will see this and finally start to treat their paying customers LIKE paying customers.

So honestly, it's pointless to try to be radical here, transmit some rage, and prove a point if it just gets deleted.

Just prove the point without the prior 3, there should be no problem, sometimes.

This might be one of the biggest problems, a lack of verbal freedom. Hint hint.

It is, probably one of the biggest, people are not allowed to be disgusted in public with what is happening, you can be disgusted on a private support ticket that the person you are disgusted with might see. Or something like that.

I dont know if anyone is familer with mousepad and netter on diablo 2, but it seems like an almost similar case to me here.