New Subscriptions

[Rufus]

Oh hell, I have just read on the startup news about the new subscription method, and I just flat out don't understand it. For those of you who haven't seen it yet:

We are introducing a new more flexible subscription system - you get a starter pack with your subscription, and you can pause your subscription:

Euro conversion
Right now we are losing an incredible amount of money each month just for currency conversion. That's why we have decided to switch the billing system completely to Euro. We know that odd Dollar numbers on the bill (like .37) might be confusing, but we hope that you understand this step. At the same time we lower the Euro prices so that the actual difference between old and new amount will not be too huge. So depending on where you come from and what you want to buy, some prices might be slightly higher or lower. On the subscription page you can easily convert the amount to your local currency.

New subscription system
We have changed the subscription system to be based on Gelats. That means you buy an amount of Gelats on the website, and then subscribe directly in the game using the Shop window. The subscription system has been simplified: we again only offer one Gold subscription which works for any current server (Zone, Kingdoms, Classic, under construction and hosted playerworlds). The price is in the middle of old single server subscription and gold bundle: you subscribe and then pay 300 Gelats each month.

Free starter pack
When you buy a subscription or gelat pack on the website then you get an additional starter pack for free. The starter pack includes items for Zone, Kingdoms, Unholy Nation, Zodiac and Era and makes the life for new players easier.

Flexible subscriptions
The subscription system is now much more flexible. First you don't need to subscribe for 12 months upfront: you can subscribe one month, then pause and continue later with your remaining Gelats. You will get an e-mail notification when your subscription is near the end and there are not enough Gelats on your account.

To start off, a new player is not going to understand what a Gelat is so I find it weird that everything is now gelat based. Gelats are very foreign, even to current Graal players and they're often confused with the local money system, it's a very confusing system in general so I personally don't think it should be mainstream. I didn't really understand the news post, so I checked out the subscriptions page which left me even more confused; this is not a simplification of subscriptions at all.

Here are my questions:

• What the heck is a bonus?
• Why do I need or want a starter pack? Especially since the items aren't even available on the server I play, and I'm not starting out.
• Are the forums going to be free now that the subscriptions are incredibly confusing and "flexible" to the point of it being abusable?
• Why change something that worked, was simple and obvious to the player, into something that is confusing to the point where I'm not even tempted to buy a subscription anymore?
• Why remove the Zone and Kingdoms subscriptions? Is it because nobody was paying for Gold anymore and just buying Zone?
• Are you aware that the 8 months package is the price of the previous 12 months?

[Crono]

I think it's ok except for the fact that...

Are you aware that the 8 months package is the price of the previous 12 months?

[MysticX2X]

Theyre charging twice as much for less. 24 euros converts to around 42 USD x.x.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Theyre charging twice as much for less. 24 euros converts to around 42 USD x.x.

Nope its about 37 Dollars atm.. the problem is likely the current american recession and the low dollar.

But look at it from the european side:
We had to pay 60€ for half a year server hosting, while you had to pay 60$, which currently converts to about 40€ => a difference of 20€!

So all the time with the weak dollar we had to pay 20€ more, then you had to pay for it :O

[Deas_Voice]

okey, now im confused ..
i dont see any subscription just grelats :S
or are im to dum to see it?

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by Deas_Voice

okey, now im confused ..
i dont see any subscription just grelats :S
or are im to dum to see it?

There are only gralats from now, so you are more flexible and for example can have a gold-pause of a month if you are on vacation somewhere.

[cbk1994]

Wait ... if I want to buy a 12 month subscription, I do what? I don't want a subscription to GK, Zone, and everything else. I just want UC playerworlds, and I already have lifetime classic. Why would I want to buy gelats, when the price could likely go up later? If I'm told I can buy 12 months, under law I should be able to. And WHAT THE HELL ARE 48.00 €???

This is what I thought as I looked at the subscription page.

Also, how do I convert the € to USD? I'm from the US, I expect to see prices in USD. I would NEVER a subscription to Graal if I was a new player.

36.00 EUR = 55.3527 USD

That's what I get on a currency conversion site. So, it costs 3x more to get a 12 month subscription? I'm not upgrading.

[Deas_Voice]

Originally Posted by Darklux

There are only gralats from now, so you are more flexible and for example can have a gold-pause of a month if you are on vacation somewhere.

rolf!
i think thats kinda stupid, becuase then i bought new sub last time, i notice that i had 2 sub of the same thing ( take zone for ex) i had 5 days left of zone and 1 year of the new sub, so it was lowering both subs and not the 1 with the lowest days left
is it realy smart to have grelat only becuase i think this is gona get new players confused

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

That's what I get on a currency conversion site. So, it costs 3x more to get a 12 month subscription? I'm not upgrading.

Sorry but thats rather the fault of your current President then the fault of CJ, like ive stated above, its sadly fair like that.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Deas_Voice

this is gona get new players confused

It has gotten OLD players confused

Originally Posted by Darklux

Sorry but thats rather the fault of your current President then the fault of CJ, like ive stated above, its sadly fair like that.

It doesn't matter what's fair; I'm not going to upgrade until the prices go down.

[Shakram]

rofl XD
yeah ok thats not fair they only changed the USD into Euro
so for Europen people it changes nothing
but US people have to pay more than before...

they should stay with the old costs and change the price for Europen people
so they dont have to pay the same than us people in Euro

[Ravenblade1979]

24.00 EUR = 36.8520 USD
24.00 EUR = 37.9310 CAD

not bad but not something i would spend money on all the time..probably when i am close and need more time.

[Googi]

Just selling Gelats is alienating to new players. I understand basing the prices in Euros but I don't see how not selling subscriptions directly benefits Graal. There's no reason you can't sell the new gelat packs (for mostly current players who want flexibility) AND subscriptions (which are easier for new players to understand).

Also, it wouldn't be hard to make a php script or whatever to grab the live currency conversion rates off of Google or whatever, which would let you display the prices in USD/CAD/GBP/etc. on the store page.

[Darklux]

And I think americans/canadians should get 10% off.. 37 dollar really sounds alot.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Darklux

And I think americans/canadians should get 10% off.. 37 dollar really sounds alot.

It's still cheaper than a console game.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Googi

It's still cheaper than a console game.

Not even close to the same quality, however. You pay a price expecting something of equal quality or value, I doubt any customer at the current targeted age range could afford that much for such a bad state, or would even want to for that matter.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Darklux

Nope its about 37 Dollars atm.. the problem is likely the current american recession and the low dollar.

But look at it from the european side:
We had to pay 60€ for half a year server hosting, while you had to pay 60$, which currently converts to about 40€ => a difference of 20€!

So all the time with the weak dollar we had to pay 20€ more, then you had to pay for it :O

My mistake. I usually have to pay through paybycash due to lack of paypal. So its actually 26.79 euro for their services plus the account charge which converts to around 42. Yeah yeah i know all about the american dollar going a bit down in value but the price now is ridiculous. im not paying 42 dollars to have 8 months of UC play.

[Horrified]

Microsoft uses MS Points, Graal uses Gelats. Confusion? No. It's a way to avoid having to separate between pricing for everything.

You guys complain about stuff too much.

[MysticX2X]

Have you read the thread? They increased the prices with even less time.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Not even close to the same quality, however. You pay a price expecting something of equal quality or value, I doubt any customer at the current targeted age range could afford that much for such a bad state, or would even want to for that matter.

A console game is pretty good if you get 40 hours out of it. You easily get more than that out of Graal.

Originally Posted by Horrified

Microsoft uses MS Points, Graal uses Gelats. Confusion? No. It's a way to avoid having to separate between pricing for everything.

You guys complain about stuff too much.

It is more confusing than just selling subscriptions, and is clearly going to alienate new players seeing as even some old players aren't able to understand it.

[Admins]

The Gelats+Subscription thing can be confusing although it makes things much more flexible. The prices are not really higher, it's less expensive for european people who bought gold bundle, its more expensive for US people who only bought one server before. Basicly we now bind prices to euro (which increases prices by 55 percent), and give you gold bundle in exchange. Also you get the starter packs and a much more flexible subscription system.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Basicly we now bind prices to euro (which increases prices by 55 percent), and give you gold bundle in exchange

We don't want a gold bundle ...

I don't want to pay to have access to Zone, GK, or Classic.

I don't play Zone, there's no way I would have upgraded for GK, and I already have lifetime classic.

All I want is a UC subscription, or whatever it's called now.

I should NOT have to pay for a classic subscription, having already purchased a lifetime one, and I don't WANT to pay for Zone or GK.

This helps you make money; it does not help the players at all. In fact, it will probably make some of them not upgrade, including me.

[Ravenblade1979]

Originally Posted by Googi

It's still cheaper than a console game.

I pay anywhere from $6-$30 for my ps2 games.

Yeah I can see some repeat customers turned off by this. It will end up being accepted in due time.

[Mafukie]

wheat is more expensive, so bread is more expensive. so they gotta push that cost on to us. I'm just waiting for some kind of quality content server to be released that is official for me to pay a monthly fee. I've gotten my money out of Graal no doubt and I'll continue to be a supporter. But we need some quality official servers with questing, crafting, dungeons, ect. But with a more modern / clean graphics. GK is rather ugly IMO, I'm sure its due for a total facelift

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

I pay anywhere from $6-$30 for my ps2 games.

Why not bring up Virtual Console, Live Arcarde, WiiWare, etc. too? You know I was talking about the rule, not the exceptions.

[Admins]

Yes need to increase the quality of Graal in general and also help Playerworlds more

[Shakram]

development should be for free =/
i understand that the people have to pay for the servers but why have people to pay if they want to work on a server ...
if development servers would be free for staff and you can even develop with a new account without subscription graal would be much better :O
there are a lot of talented people (graphic artists , scripters...) who could help graal to become a very good mmo but i understand if they dont want to pay to help a mmo to become better ...

[Admins]

Originally Posted by Shakram

development should be for free

We are thinking of adding ways that staff get some percentage of gelats made with server items, that way you could at least pay you own subscription or even development servers.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Googi

A console game is pretty good if you get 40 hours out of it. You easily get more than that out of Graal.

The amount of time you get out of a game does not usually constitute as a reason for high pricing alone. Not one current server provides 40 hours of gameplay anyway other than Zodiac, unless you include idling a form of gameplay, which can be done on most console games anyway.

Originally Posted by Stefan

We are thinking of adding ways that staff get some percentage of gelats made with server items, that way you could at least pay you own subscription or even development servers.

This is a huge can of worms. Who would be put in charge of the distribution of gelats, the local managers? I can hear it now..

"..but a manager doesn't do anything, we do more work than him how can he decide on who gets gelats!"
"He isn't pulling his weight, but he's the manager's favorite, so he's getting more gelats"
"You've just done half of the overworld? Great, but _____ did a couple of new weapons which are more important."
"Let's make some new pointless staff teams so our friends can get in on the pay!"
"FAQs and GPs barely do anything, why are they paid staff when developers are expected to spend their time developing while all they have to do is an easy job for an easy ride?"

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

This is a huge can of worms. Who would be put in charge of the distribution of gelats, the local managers? I can hear it now..

Maybe there should be a new global team dedicated to doing this. Personally I think they should have an Accounts Team of a few people who are in charge of passwords/accounts and distribution of gelats, etc.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Maybe there should be a new global team dedicated to doing this. Personally I think they should have an Accounts Team of a few people who are in charge of passwords/accounts and distribution of gelats, etc.

How would they even know themselves? It's an ideal rather than an idea, I really can't see this system working efficiently.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

How would they even know themselves? It's an ideal rather than an idea, I really can't see this system working efficiently.

I guess you have a good point, but Stefan really didn't go in to detail about it so neither of us really know what to expect. Maybe you're taking it the wrong way.

Besides the fact that I now have to pay more to help Graal is something I don't like, but other than that I can see why they're basing things off of Gelats because I understand their future plans and I think it's a good plan and I like where it's headed. I wish there were some way they could decrease the prices though, especially for people just interested in developing, rather than playing, since my work/help is contributing to their paycheck.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Are you aware that the 8 months package is the price of the previous 12 months?

Stefan, you Unix need to come to America, bread isn't that expensive here

[Shakram]

how they want to calculate who get more gelats than someone else ? :O
is scripting more worth than gfxing ?
do gps or faq get gelats too ?
the only way to do this is if evry item in the graalshop have the accounts of the creators in it so only this guys get the gelats
but this will end in that all people only do graalshop items and you have to pay for evrything
i would do the graalshop items for free if developing would be for free too

[Mafukie]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Maybe there should be a new global team dedicated to doing this. Personally I think they should have an Accounts Team of a few people who are in charge of passwords/accounts and distribution of gelats, etc.

No, the way it should work since gelats equal money is that the SERVER generates gelats then the SERVER MANAGER decides how much to delegate to their development team. Also if the SERVER MANAGER wants to add gelats to the server they can pay to add gelats to the server 'bank' and pay people with them that way if the server isn't yet earning gelats, they can still pay their dev team

[cbk1994]

It would be cool if server managers got to distribute some gelats to the developers.

Personally, I don't think non-dev staff should be paid, as they are really having fun as they do it; think about NATs and other developers who spend their time scripting with little interaction with players.

[Crono]

I suppose working your ass off so you can continue working your ass off is an improvement over paying so you can work your ass off.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

I suppose working your ass off so you can continue working your ass off is an improvement over paying so you can work your ass off.

Certainly. I'd rather work my ass off, and continue working my ass off, then work my ass off, then PAY to continue working my ass off

[Clockwork]

Graal is digging it's own grave. x.x;

I might think about purchasing more time later on if the UPDATES that were supposed to released (Flying tech, etc... ) were released. Usually when you pay for a game on any type of basis, updates are released. Graal over the past year has been;
1: (Update) V5
2: (Update) Several new ways of paying, gelets.
3: Killed any skill required in zone.
4: ????
5Update) Todays new ways of paying MORE (For me, I'm US)
6: Profit?

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Stefan

The Gelats+Subscription thing can be confusing although it makes things much more flexible. The prices are not really higher, it's less expensive for european people who bought gold bundle, its more expensive for US people who only bought one server before. Basicly we now bind prices to euro (which increases prices by 55 percent), and give you gold bundle in exchange. Also you get the starter packs and a much more flexible subscription system.

Paying 55 percent more is a pretty drastic jump. A 10-20 percent increase wouldnt be ALL that bad. I mean expect some quality content put out before thinking about charging more.

All i know is that im not going to pay 13 dollars more to get the same benefits i want now but with 4 months extra time. Unless playerworld developers get bonus gelets like stated.