GS2 Curiousity..

[ecuelor]

I had messed around with the level editor awhile back and recently just redownloaded Graal. I was intrigued to find that there was a new scripting system called GS2. However, to my dismay, it seems that the new system is only usable online and as such requires around 100$ to even play with and test stuff. Now this may just be me but wouldn't it be smarter businesswise to allow people to learn the new system in order to hook them into buying a server. I for one am interested in testing out these new functions in order to possibly make a server, however, I wouldn't do so without actually being able to play with the new features to see if they were worth using.

Another related note is that in order to get into a team as a scripter, you'd need to learn to use the fuctions however, not being able to test them on your own means that you are unable to learn which in turn means ya can't join a team with a server that ya need in order to learn. This also seems counter-productive.


Now, I couldn't take too much to strip down a dumbed down npc server and throw it into the level editor/tester in order to allow new scripters/builders the opertunity to learn the system. I'm sure that there would be many more scripters if this were the case as it seems Graal's Scripting system is rather advanced and has many interesting features.

Just some things to think about from an interested fan...

Ecu

[Prozac]

I fully agree with you.
A good place for this message would also be in the New Features/Suggestions area, along with the many other voices wanting basically the same thing you have requested here.

[ApothiX]

Originally Posted by ecuelor

Now, I couldn't take too much to strip down a dumbed down npc server and throw it into the level editor/tester in order to allow new scripters/builders the opertunity to learn the system. I'm sure that there would be many more scripters if this were the case as it seems Graal's Scripting system is rather advanced and has many interesting features.

I assume you mean 'It couldn't ..', and I don't think it's a matter of it being hard as much as it would be a huge security hazard.

[Yen]

How(why) would you(want to) be able to emulate an NPC-Server on your CPU? There wouldn't be any other players, so it wouldn't do much.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Yen

How(why) would you(want to) be able to emulate an NPC-Server on your CPU? There wouldn't be any other players, so it wouldn't do much.

So they can work on GScript2 scripts offline/locally.

[Yen]

But you wouldn't need an NPC Server for that, just GS2 functionality in the editor. :/

[ecuelor]

I assumed that the easiest method of integrating the new scripts into the lvl editor would be to add in a dumym NPC server, if one the other hand, they just coded the editor to accept the new scripts and use them then that would also work. I just feel like I should be able to test everything I have at my fingertips before I just go and dish out money for a playerworld. As the number of posts here increases, I notice that I am not alone in this feeling.

If a GM reads this, please take it as high up as ya can as I certainly would put money down on a server if I could play with everything. I am sure I'm not alone in this either. There would be more people willing to buy into the playworlds if they could actually know what their scripts would do.

Thanks again and keep posting,
Ecu

[talkingnoodle]

i agree 100%

but wont the new graal editor have GS2 built in?

[Yen]

Originally Posted by talkingnoodle

i agree 100%

but wont the new graal editor have GS2 built in?

The new editor will be online, last I heard.

[napo_p2p]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...10&postcount=8

[Warcaptain]

Stefan has said that the editor will be online, but that he has no plans to release an offline editor that uses GS2. This seems to be his way of fixing the problem of no editor for GS2 but still not fixing the problem of having to pay $100 to learn GS2. Even if there was an online editor, you would still have to have a playerworld to work on. I am not sure, maybe (and probably not) he would setup a playerworld that players can register to work on (to use it as an online testing ground) and just give everyone that registers a level to work in, and make scripts.. but that still doesnt solve any problems.. since most likely you would have to be gold or VIP to register.

Maybe sometime in the future though, he has a lot to work on with G3D and new server projects coming out. So I am sure that kind of thing is pretty low on the list.

Then again, I'm not Stefan.

[Moondeath_2]

Originally Posted by Warcaptain

Stefan has said that the editor will be online, but that he has no plans to release an offline editor that uses GS2. This seems to be his way of fixing the problem of no editor for GS2 but still not fixing the problem of having to pay $100 to learn GS2. Even if there was an online editor, you would still have to have a playerworld to work on. I am not sure, maybe (and probably not) he would setup a playerworld that players can register to work on (to use it as an online testing ground) and just give everyone that registers a level to work in, and make scripts.. but that still doesnt solve any problems.. since most likely you would have to be gold or VIP to register.

Maybe sometime in the future though, he has a lot to work on with G3D and new server projects coming out. So I am sure that kind of thing is pretty low on the list.

Then again, I'm not Stefan.

Yeah but ... though this whole online editor just from the start is quite irritating as the "LevelEditor" npc as the new graal level edit I dislike it for on you cannot use it on the gmap two it takes for ever to find certain tiles in a quick amount times and such on I really would like to see a offline gs2 editor for scripts but true it is a security risk for hackers but then again couldn't someone bypass the npc-control or some sort and get coding from that?

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by Moondeath_2

Yeah but ... though this whole online editor just from the start is quite irritating as the "LevelEditor" npc as the new graal level edit I dislike it for on you cannot use it on the gmap two it takes for ever to find certain tiles in a quick amount times and such on I really would like to see a offline gs2 editor for scripts but true it is a security risk for hackers but then again couldn't someone bypass the npc-control or some sort and get coding from that?

Allow me to stress on the fact that the online level editor is not complete and such, new features will be added and things will be fixed.

[Inverness]

We still need an offline level editor for people to learn GS2 with.
I don't like the idea of having to hire an "NAT Cadet" or something like that, i'd rather just make the other staff learn

[Moondeath_2]

Originally Posted by Inverness

We still need an offline level editor for people to learn GS2 with.
I don't like the idea of having to hire an "NAT Cadet" or something like that, i'd rather just make the other staff learn

Basically that is true with gs1 the offline editor is there to practice at your own pace and everything on rc it sends loads of messages annoying other ncs and unlike the rc with the gs1 on graal editor you can see the results after hitting play on this you have to login to the server which I sometimes am not the most happy about doing but it has to be done.

Originally Posted by Skyld

Allow me to stress on the fact that the online level editor is not complete and such, new features will be added and things will be fixed.

I realize that but as far as I can say it's not the best script I'd like to see further improvements on it so as to level editing can be easier I although liking the fact of being able to fix up minor level tile errors with a few clicks instead of opening editor, I just wish it would work on the maps.

[Yen]

Less scripters makes Yen more important.

Boo at GS2 in the offline editor, I say!

[JkWhoSaysNi]

The main issue I have with not being able to test GS2 scripts online is time.

It takes me probably 10x longer to test a script online because I have to save the level, switch windows, upload the level, switch to the online graal window. Rather than just pressing 'play'.

Very annoying. The alternative is to use weapons/classes & an editor without syntax hilighting, line numbers and then flood RC while testing.. or copy and paste from a decent editor which takes time.

I'd very much like to be able to test GS2 scripts offline.

[Yen]

I can see some use for GS2 in the offline editor, but compatibility with the NPC Server and other players is a really big issue that can't be simulated in offline mode.

There's nothing wrong with flooding RC, I do it all the time. I have this nasty habit of saving the script every 5 lines.
Also, assuming you're on Windows, you can right-click > 'Open with..' > 'Choose program' > Browse to 'GraalEditor.exe' > Check off 'Always use this program'
Now, you can just double-click the level from your RC's FTP. It'll open it with the editor. When you hit Save, it'll automatically upload itself.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Yen

Less scripters makes Yen more important.

Boo at GS2 in the offline editor, I say!

Less scripters = Graal's downfall. I'm the only scripter that's even doing a fair share of work on Classic. Just got done a new gs2 movement system. Let me just say this, I absolutely suck in gs1.

The best way to go about being good at gs2 when you're introduced to it is to learn Java (if you're one that doesn't have access to it). C++ is a bit messier and a little less similar, but might give you a bit more of an advantage. This is probably the best advice I can give right now until Stefan stops being so stubborn about not having the offline editor support gs2. Then again, this could be his means to narrow the amount of player worlds. The more centralized the player population is, the better it is for the game as a whole.

However, on Classic, if that ever happened, we have a serverside HD system and when I first revised the script to MoD fort, so much fighting was going on with maybe a 75 player count, that the NPC server kept farting on and off. I couldn't imaging what going back to a 200 playercount like when I started playing would be like.

Meanwhile, I'm secretly hoping that Stefan makes an upgraded gserver with serverside HD, serverside baddies, serverside links, serverside chests, and finally, clientside signs. It would be a lot more secure and a lot more efficient as opposed to scripting it in gscript would be. The thing with having something like baddies interpreted by the gserver rather than scripting them would be that they're much much more quickly interpreted. If you script it, it's just an extra load on the gserver to call triggeractions, parse and interpret each and every line of code.

However, Stefan needs to refine v4 and gscript2 before anything like that will happen.

[ecuelor]

Well, an online editor would work fine if they did give each registered user to have a single lvl that they could access and build online. Though making it only for subscribers still stops people from learning without paying to test it. Honestly if there was an offline editor with all the perks of the regular game, I bevlieve that more playworlds would be sold as more people would have the leisure of learning the scripting system.

As for people being able to back-hack the offline editor for the scripting system... If someone was good enough to do that, they could do it to the normal game and steal what they wanted anyways. An offline editor is no more a security leak then an online.

Allowing more peopel to work with the editing system would also likely increase the ammount of people that played and paid for it as well as more of the creative minds could try learn stuff without being forced into it.

Well thats my 2 cents,
Ecu

[Admins]

I don't see any sense in making built-in signs or baddies, when they are well scripted they don't take a lot of cpu time anyway. We are working on new default baddy npc scripts which can then be used by playerworlds.
Offline-scripting has not been possible for 5 years now. Yes you can test some simple playertouchsme-showimgs things, but emulating a complete npcserver requires a complete npcserver and at the end it will be the same like working on your online server. It is already much easier to script online, and there are enough development servers online. We are also working on making renting a playerworld space simplier, as easy as it is to upgrade an account.
Spending resources on an offline editor would be a step back for me, it is more interesting to work on letting more people get access to the online scripting and online level editing.

About error messages like missing functions: there are options to turn them off / redirect them to file (logscripterrorstofile=true)

About editing scripts: now that RC2 is officially released you can see the scripts with syntax highlighting and line numbers. When you edit Weapons/GUI scripts, NPCs, classes and ganis then their script is immediatelly updated and sent to the clients so you can test things without restarting anything.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Spending resources on an offline editor would be a step back for me, it is more interesting to work on letting more people get access to the online scripting and online level editing.

About editing scripts: now that RC2 is officially released you can see the scripts with syntax highlighting and line numbers. When you edit Weapons/GUI scripts, NPCs, classes and ganis then their script is immediatelly updated and sent to the clients so you can test things without restarting anything.

Letting more people access scripting online for less money is difficult and perhaps dangerous. I'll commend you if you can get it done.

An offline editor that I would want to see developed, seeing your goals
Removed play button.
Added redo button.
Improved tile editing.
NPC Script Errors removed.

Then, a class definitions file, that scripters give their level makers, which states class names and variables that need to be set in the NPC, their host event handler, and then calls to a class function that are needed in the class.

But I guess you're not going to focus on that, oh well.

[Warcaptain]

Unfortunately, it doesnt matter how easy you make it to learn... if someone has to PAY money to try to learn something they will not do it. At least not as many people as Graal really needs.

Not to mention there is no GOOD documentation out for GS2 since the wiki is only a list of commands, not what they or sample usage.

You SHOULD be having your global scripting team creating a more valuable and resourceful wiki. I always commended PHP for having probably the most extensive, free, and SIMPLE documentation on their language. You have this GST with global RC and all that jazz.. that do nothing. I suggest you put them to good use.

[ecuelor]

Stefan: Personally, I don't see why a offline editor would be counter-productive. You make money by people purchasing playerworlds or by playerworlds that have such appeal that people purchase accounts to be able to play on them. Not having an offline editor hurts the ammount of people that play, I guarentee. In turn, this hurts the ammount of money you make and the popularity of your game. As there is no free development spaces, ya have no way of learning before ya buy which as Warcaptain said hurts business. Take for example Furcadia. They have an editor that allows experimentation and people pay for extras all the time. If I could learn the whole scripting system first, I'd guarentee ya I'd buy a server... or two.. Me and a friend already have a vision for a playerworld design that would be extreme compaired to what I've seen so far, however, as we are unable to learn as figure out all the new scripting.. and we have no way of making anything out of us running a playerworld... We have no reason to buy one. Its just not worth it. I guarentee if ya had a full offline editor, you'd run into more people developing things for Graal.

This is all comming from someone who is considering and working on putting his own MMO together that plans to be something of a combination between Second Life, Furcadia, and Graal. So I've put alot of thought into what I am saying and am not just spirting off statements.

I guarentee though that if I happened to have a way of learning either offline or online as well as my partners that I'm sure we'd put some venture into Graal. Either give every paid member an online map they can work with, or make the offline editor capable of running all the scripts so that people can work with em.

Well enough ranting.. Ciao,
Ecu

[Yen]

It
Is
Not
Possible
To
Emulate
An
NPC
Server
Offline

Giving the offline editor NPC-Server functionality would have VERY LITTLE MEANING. You won't know if your scripts work. It's totally different when other players are around.
It would also decrease the client's security.

[ecuelor]

It could be, anything is possible with effort. As I said later in my post though, then allow someone who pays for their account to have access to a single map on the server that they can modify NPC's / Script for.

Personally though it seems as many of the fans of Graal would rather the offline editor be able to mimic an npc server allowing for many things to be tested. Yes, things would still need to be updated to the online server to test multiplayer things and such, but even those are able to be designed around currently as ya can have a good idea how the differences would be when multiple players are around and code to reflect that.

Trust me, I have a friend that used to be on the design team here at graal and has a crapload of stuff he's done all offline. His stuff is amazing and I can only immagine what he could do with full access. This is why there needs to be the ability to mess with stuff offline, you'll end up with better and better coders that are interested in making the playerworlds better which in turn will pull more people to Graal.

(edit)
As a follow up note, if investing extra time into an offline editor away from an online editor is counter-productive... Just put all that effort towards an offline editor as it'd benifit more people and seems like what more people want (instead of this amazing online editor that only a few people can use)
(end edit)

[Yen]

Ask one of the 100+ servers for RC. I'm sure one of them will give you an RC to play around on.

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by ecuelor

It could be, anything is possible with effort. As I said later in my post though, then allow someone who pays for their account to have access to a single map on the server that they can modify NPC's / Script for.

There's no point - you would not get it the same as an online NPC-Server anyway.

Originally Posted by ecuelor

Personally though it seems as many of the fans of Graal would rather the offline editor be able to mimic an npc server allowing for many things to be tested.

We know!

Originally Posted by ecuelor

Yes, things would still need to be updated to the online server to test multiplayer things and such, but even those are able to be designed around currently as ya can have a good idea how the differences would be when multiple players are around and code to reflect that.

But only you would be able to use your offline NPC-Server.

Originally Posted by ecuelor

Trust me, I have a friend that used to be on the design team here at graal and has a crapload of stuff he's done all offline. His stuff is amazing and I can only immagine what he could do with full access. This is why there needs to be the ability to mess with stuff offline, you'll end up with better and better coders that are interested in making the playerworlds better which in turn will pull more people to Graal.

As Yen said, I'm sure you can find an RC on one of the servers out there.

Originally Posted by ecuelor

(edit)
As a follow up note, if investing extra time into an offline editor away from an online editor is counter-productive... Just put all that effort towards an offline editor as it'd benifit more people and seems like what more people want (instead of this amazing online editor that only a few people can use)
(end edit)

How would it benefit GraalOnline to make an offline editor? It's in their interest to get content online.

[ecuelor]

Well by allowing an offline editor, you enable people to work on their own in the secret of nite to learn and develop something that is completely theirs. Noone else can touch it and they can make it as massive as their computer can possibly handle. This would help LAT submitions, make sure all designers are familiar with the whole new and advanced scripting language instead of just some really old and outdated one.

In addition, unless ya make a way to build and test for free you will eventually notice more and more of a decline in player population. As I said earlier, being able to modify stuff on ones own leads to them enjoying building to the point that they are willing to pay extra in order to build their own stuff. I said myself that I would likely buy a server, or two even, if I had access to an offline editor I could learn from as I have some personal styles and thoughts on the game I'd like to play with but not allow some random RC to just have access to all my designs in order to learn. It would benefit GraalOnline by increasing the skill of the builders. It'd benefit the players by having a chance to gain the ability to create their own content, as well as having better (more immersive) content as the designers become more capable.


There are a billion reasons why an online editor would be AWESOME and I understand why GraalOnline is interested in such a venture. However, denying people the ability to build offline is/will hurt the community such that it very well may die. I sure hope not, as it is a very interesting engine dev-wise. Note though, I do not play consistantly on any of the servers I've seen as alot of what I have seen isn't immersive and seems chopped together or out of scew. This is my personal opinion and as such others do play...but how many people feel like me? I am sure that if people were given the option to learn freely, they would. Heck, people want an offline editor... You guys are being yelled at continually about it... why not just make it for them? Add in the scripts to the current editor and make it like an RC that only accepts one player. It means for scripts designed to heavy effect multiple players you'd still need to test online, but otherwise you'd be able to learn to use all the effects and such without requiring the use of either a Random RC or paying to learn.

Thanks again for listening to my flame.

Ecu