If this goes on.....

Majin_Mush · #1 01-21-2004, 06:20 PM

I see people get scammed all the time...Argo got scammed His Dwarfen Hammer and something else.. Know by who?? Silent (Silent_P2P). Also Alaru (Sorig) Scammed someones armor +6.. He said the guy he scammed form had his RoC and he didn't..
If this called legal I don't like graal anymore..
Silent_P2P should be banned. He scams people all the time.. And know what he does? Laugh Laugh and Laugh.. He sells the things he scammed.
If he can't be banned for this I do not know if I still like graal....
If he won't be banned then atleast give the stuff back to the victims.

Like I said I don't like graal anymore if this will go on..

Argo.. Ill help to get your DwarfenHammer back.. I think it will take a while but ill do my best =/.
And I heard about Wren too.. She got scammed her Shield and Gauntlets. You have got the shield back already but I will also help you get back the Gauntlets.

zell12 · #2 01-21-2004, 06:53 PM

Why are there trading tables and trading menus. You people are lazy or just dumb.

narkotic · #3 01-21-2004, 06:58 PM

I agree, this is becoming a greater problem.

I think one of the best things to do would be utilizing something already practiced by some of the Kingdoms in graal.

What I am talking about is 'black listing.' Got scammed by someone? Submit their name. More people getting scammed by that person? Black list them and spread the word. It's just like what some volunteer organizations do to SPAMmers. Finding out who provides the tools for the people, and then setup the road blocks.

While it's sad to say, part of trading should involve checking this black list. That way you avoid some of this scamming as much as possible.

This trade black list shouldn't be based on the current black lists in use. This would be unfair to them as some of these lists are unrelated to scamming incidents, but might also be due to personal vendettas.

I would suggest a council be formed from members within kingdoms and without. Perhaps manned by six or seven members, and voted in by the community. These people would review the list, review submissions, hold votes and maintain the black list. They would also listen to challenges, and remove people when they turn a new leaf. One of the things I am big on is forgiveness, and even the biggest scammer can turn legit if they are promptly banned from all trade from informed players.

GoZelda · #4 01-21-2004, 06:58 PM

Dumb probably. Everybody uses the tables. x.x It isn't bannable and it probably won't be, unless a bug is used. Ofcourse, if you had a little RP sense - which you don't - you could RP that this Silent was a thief, and everything that comes along with it.

zell12 · #5 01-21-2004, 07:02 PM

You can't be banned for stealing something, but abusing a bug to get someones stuff is banable, not because of stealing, but because of bug abuse.

If you guys just used the Trading tables like you're supposed to, none of this would happen.

narkotic · #6 01-21-2004, 07:10 PM

I have no problems with 'scammers' or using the tables or trade window properly.

What I am seeing, however, is players who are taking advantage of others' ignorance, or their trust. It's not bannable to do something like this. It's not against the rules to grief. It is against the rules to harass, and in some ways such a situation could be borderline on that.

Also, I'm sure a lot of people could roleplay him as a thief. The problem is, these thieves take it out of roleplay context. It's hard to roleplay to a brick wall, or to the air. I doubt these griefers would roleplay back if someone bothered.

This is a social problem, and should be resolved via social means. It's obviously not an offense that warrants the usage of a ban, so the players who are against this form of griefing need to ban together and work to increase the public knowledge and shut these people down with their scam organizations. My earlier post lists one solution, a civilized one at that. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if vigilante justice might arise because of this. The roleplay possibilities there are endless, but so would be a council of law enforcement.

GoZelda · #7 01-21-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zell12
If you guys just used the Trading tables like you're supposed to, none of this would happen.

Yes it would, people are stupid and give away stuff x.x

zell12 · #8 01-21-2004, 08:02 PM

It is their own fault if they don't ask a friend what something is worth. It is their own fault if they are scammed when they do not use a trading table or trading menu. It is their own fault.

GoZelda · #9 01-21-2004, 08:05 PM

That's your opinion - and i'm certain Majin's is different

narkotic boy, it can be fairly easily be RPed. Say person X scammed Lord Yly Yson of (Y), then ofcourse whole kingdom Y will hunt after X, and it is quite RPly

zell12 · #10 01-21-2004, 08:07 PM

It is also the opinion of the Administrators.

Majin_Mush · #11 01-21-2004, 08:09 PM

No you can't be banned for this.
And GOzelda stop ur nonsense about RPing...
Scamming is RP-ing? Well if you say yes then go to hell.

And Zell most of people still get scammed on some way by the tables..
I do not know how this is happening but.....

GOzelde you really can't send any Respectable messages do you?
Is that RPing?

narkotic · #12 01-21-2004, 08:10 PM

Heh, you call them stupid for losing their stuff. You call them stupid because they don't know the value for an item (which seems to drastically change, you cannot argue that. The economy in this game stinks). The fact is, this is all ignorance on the part of the players who become victims. Ignorance isn't the same as being stupid. Thinking that way is actually being stupid.

Yah I agree, players should ask around before they sell or pay for something to find the value. The trade tables and trade menu should also be used. A newbie player, however, does not know of all these things. They are ignorant to what you expect them to already know.

Still, everything you've said zell12, doesn't justify that these people should be scamming others. Just because of their ignorance they deserve to be scammed? Nope, scamming is still wrong. Maybe rather than telling people they are stupid and it's all their fault for losing their stuff, we should try to tell them what they need to do and perhaps help them out in recovering their stuff like Majin_Mush is doing for his friends. That or blacklist those scammers and punish them for taking advantage of others.

GoZelda · #13 01-21-2004, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Majin_Mush
Scamming is RP-ing? Well if you say yes then go to hell.

I'm already there :grin:

I didn't said scamming is RPing, but that you can have an RPly reaction on scamming.

Quote:

Same person
GOzelde you really can't send any Respectable messages do you?
Is that RPing?

It has nothing to do with RPing because the forums are ooc.

Do you know what ooc means?

narkotic · #14 01-21-2004, 08:20 PM

You have to admit, though, that the first reaction of a player who has been scammed isn't going to be 'Oh boy, this looks like an opportunity for me to express myself in an in character manner. I will get all of my friends involved in a roleplay manner, and we will go after this ole chap and confront him as he sells my stolen equipment to the highest bidder.' Read the post about the council, this can be completely justified as a roleplaying situation. A scammer case brought before the council, a council composed of members of all kingdoms and non kingdoms (like from significant clans like TBC) who condemn thieves and announce that they are marked.

All the Kingdoms in this game are against scamming. Part of the recruitment policy is that you give your word to not be a scammer and bring dishonor to your kingdom. With all the alliances currently in place, you'd think that the combined might of these large organizations would be able to inform the public, in a roleplaying manner, that this person is condemned as a thief, that they are not to be trusted, and should be banned from all means of trade. Their goods are tainted, and could possibly be gained from unjust means. Would you really want to buy items from these people if they ruthlessly tricked another player who unknowingly trusted this person? Are you supporting scamming with these statements by putting the blame completely onto the victim of the crime?

Cyrin, kiddo, I'd appreciate it if you showed a bit more respect as well and not call me boy again. If anything, the name is Norm, don't forget.

Oh, and you are right about the forums being OOC and such. Yes, very true on that. Although, a great number of influential people read these forums. The reputation you create on it does become noted. It's best to remain respectful to the people you speak to despite how they respond to you. You become the bigger man that way, as they sometimes say.

Majin_Mush · #15 01-21-2004, 09:41 PM

I could maybe give a RPly reaction but it drives me crazy see all the people getting scammed..

GoZelda · #16 01-21-2004, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by narkotic

Cyrin, kiddo, I'd appreciate it if you showed a bit more respect as well and not call me boy again. If anything, the name is Norm, don't forget.

Yes i know, but you have this Samurai-ish name now, so i thought you'd be mad if i called you Norm because it was your CP name or stuff.

zell12 · #17 01-21-2004, 10:55 PM

Call me Excalibur please

And guys, scaming was said to be legal by Stefan many times, but bug abuse is not. If someone abuses a bug to get your items in a trading menu or at a trading table, let an Administrator know. He can check the logs and restore your item(s) and remove the item from the other person, and punish them.

Monkeyboy_McGee · #18 01-22-2004, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by everyone

DORKS, ALL OF YOU! BUIWHAAAAa! *dives under a trapdoor in the stage and starts playing an old organ* damn this mask is itchy...

Anyway, yes. Scamming is not RPing in the least. Doing it by trade tables is most likely just like, pressing cancel then accept just before the other guy clicks accept (thus meaning your side is empty, so you trade nothing for their stuff), which is clicking buttons, not trading. You can't RP your things just magically vanishing but the other person still handing his over, he wouldn't do it in an IC situation. Not using the trade tables to trade isn't RPing either, because the thief ISNT AN RPER. Stealing things denotes taking another person's possessions without their willingness (and without them knowing, more often than not). In game, the way people scam you is for you to lay your items on the ground and they pick it up and run. If you call GIVING them your items (because you're too stupid to use trade tables) RPing, then, well, GO TO HELL* o_o

*No cyrin, you are not already in hell. You're in brussels, which is close, but no omlettes

Final note: People who get scammed have only themselves and the scammers to blame. They are themselves to blame for being too stupid to use trade tables, or to use them safely and carefully. The scammers are to blame because these scammers are lamers for taking advantage like that. Noone else is to blame, noone else should have to give a rat's tail about it other than the staff who should go and spank the scammer (if there is proof, of course).

zell12 · #19 01-22-2004, 02:01 AM

Instead of saying "posted by everyone" say everyone except Excal.

Admins · #20 01-22-2004, 03:52 PM

There could be a warning if people try to drop something valuable
'This item is of high value. If you want to give it to someone else then it's better to use secure trading - drop it on the other player to see the player-to-player trading menu, or go to one of the trading rooms and use the trade tables for exchanging items.'

Satrek2000 · #21 01-22-2004, 03:57 PM

I agree, similar to the message "You don't want to put the house key into that chest" - but if I remember correctly, the sigil of thunder for example has a 'market value' of 0. How would the script determin what's valuable and what's not?

Damix2 · #22 01-22-2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satrek2000
I agree, similar to the message "You don't want to put the house key into that chest" - but if I remember correctly, the sigil of thunder for example has a 'market value' of 0. How would the script determin what's valuable and what's not?

I would just say, give the message for everything, and have it so if you try and drop it a second time it will without question.

Satrek2000 · #23 01-22-2004, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Damix2
I would just say, give the message for everything, and have it so if you try and drop it a second time it will without question.

This can be annoying, though, if you're dropping boards, tree seeds and such - to the effect that people will ignore the message when it comes to the "real stuff".
How about a scamming-lessin as one of the starting tasks - the player gets a good item, but an NPC tries to scam him. This way, not only would the player be warned, she'd also be familiar with safetrade and trading tables in the game.

narkotic · #24 01-22-2004, 07:46 PM

You'd have to fix the economy before adding something like that.

The prices for some valuable items have a broad range depending on where you buy them at times. Then the associated value for those items combined with the greed of players who charge well over 10x the perceived worth of the item to the game, you end up with it being difficult for a script to determine the value of the item when dropped and warning the player when they do attempt to drop it.

I'm not sure of what flags are on items and whatnot, but perhaps items that are event items could have a special flag (if they don't already) and the act of dropping an item would check for this flag and warn the player based on that.

I thought I heard mention of this before. It would assist players who are ignorant to the scamming and ability to use trade tables and the trade menu. Also, why limit it to event items either? Items from Gods and alchemy should also have this flag. Perhaps one that denotes a 'resource' style item (iron, wood, seeds, corn, etc), another that denotes a weapon, shield... oh wait, this is already done isn't it?

Satrek2000 · #25 01-22-2004, 11:12 PM

Relics can't be dropped or traded at all.
Also, it isn't a problem of the economy (although there are many) that some items are worth far more than their market valie. Take an event item which sells for 0 plats to the shop, but is unique and powerfull. You'd have to include certain categories, say event items and gems, but that'd only be a start. I'd say providing players with a lesson of both scamming and safe trading methods would help things...

Majin_Mush · #26 01-23-2004, 05:56 PM

Thats a great idea Stefan..

Relics cannot be droped.. You will lose them when you will O.o

Toxin · #27 01-24-2004, 04:28 AM

What if you made it so you didnt need to go to a table, and could initiate a trade anywhere? such as if you wanted to trade with someone, you'd both go into a "trade mode", and have to be near eachother, then click on them (while in trade mode) to sorta request a trade, and then they click on you to accept (no messages sent, if you wanna trade, just click on eachother), and a window pops up if accepted, and you drop items into it, then you have the flags or buttons or whatever to click and boom, i dunno, just a thought.

vashstyle · #28 01-24-2004, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Majin_Mush
Like I said I don't like graal anymore if this will go on..

"You'll be missed!" - Randal Graves

Majin_Mush · #29 01-24-2004, 11:44 AM

Pretty good idea Toxin..
Or maybe.. Say something like..
/trade <itemname> to <Accountname> for <Amount>
Then the one who gets it has to confirm it.
By this you can't give it to the wrong account O.o

Satrek2000 · #30 01-24-2004, 01:34 PM

I think the idea of trading tables it good, and works fine. The only problem are players who get themselves scammed, and this can happen in any system.

Monkeyboy_McGee · #31 01-24-2004, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satrek2000
I think the idea of trading tables it good, and works fine. The only problem are players who get themselves scammed, and this can happen in any system.

Yeah, aside from the one or two bugs people seem to be having.

Toxin's idea is good but it might be a little bit of a liability, and frustrating, like the current <item> for <plat> tradescreen. It disappears if you press any other keys, and you might be in the middle of clicking something else on your screen and accidentally click accept XD

Toxin · #32 01-24-2004, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Majin_Mush
Pretty good idea Toxin..
Or maybe.. Say something like..
/trade <itemname> to <Accountname> for <Amount>
Then the one who gets it has to confirm it.
By this you can't give it to the wrong account O.o

That could possibly work, but I was saying no messages, so like, you couldnt annoy someone by giving them a message wanting trade 1 silver for 1498127 plat, 58934901248 times, plus the idea i had would give you a visual (no typing except for "/tmode" or something to go into trading mode at first), and you'd have to be near eachother because of the clicking (no messages sent, you'd both have to just talk to eachother before, and assume you want to trade, maybe it could add their account to a string when you click them, and if that account wants to trade with you (got your account on their string by clicking on you), it'd pop the window up ready for a trade and to drag the items in, showing what eachother has dropped, and you can just like double click one of your items to remove them or something, and select them via the craft-menu style to see their description) =) maybe...

*edit*

for that, you can just have a string that checks which menus you have open (like if you toggle the items menu open, it adds that to a client string then removes it when it's off, and in the if (created) part to set it to off, so you dont just like reconnect, not in the menu and walk around not able to do crap wondering why XD), and makes sure you only have the trade one open in order to hit accept, or possibly just say "accept trade" instead of a button, you dont have to accept my ideas by whole, you can just get parts of things i say, and improve on them

*another edit*

no clicking on another person while in trade screen either, it could check that too...

tc_topcat · #33 01-25-2004, 01:09 AM

In another online game i play, players can lend items to other people but it will always remain in the owners inventory and they can click it and it returns back to them...i think that graal should introduce lending.

Excal (i remeber you from when i was a newbie,you were so nice to me and Akira, need more people like you <3)
i do think people are stupid i would never give anything of value to others in real life not even my friends a person who is too trusting is naive.

Norm always sticking up for everyone <3

Monkeyboy_McGee · #34 01-25-2004, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tc_topcat
In another online game i play, players can lend items to other people but it will always remain in the owners inventory and they can click it and it returns back to them...i think that graal should introduce lending.

Sounds like a funky feature. No doubt some lame-os would start abusing it or something, such as giving armour then taking it back just as someone engages like a strong enemy, so they die (or maybe that's just my paranoia talking...?)

graaliholic · #35 01-25-2004, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monkeyboy_McGee

Sounds like a funky feature. No doubt some lame-os would start abusing it or something, such as giving armour then taking it back just as someone engages like a strong enemy, so they die (or maybe that's just my paranoia talking...?)

Then kingdoms could make libraries to lend books out, or an equipment shop where you pay X plat and get some equipment (flaming sword of govannon comes to mind) for a few days until you get something better, or if someone wanted to say "can i try that on?", then they would be able to.

Majin_Mush · #36 01-25-2004, 10:30 AM

Hmm..

Satrek2000 · #37 01-25-2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by graaliholic

Then kingdoms could make libraries to lend books out, or an equipment shop where you pay X plat and get some equipment (flaming sword of govannon comes to mind) for a few days until you get something better, or if someone wanted to say "can i try that on?", then they would be able to.

It would also be possible to create a kingdom armory, with a display which says which item is currently in the posession of which player - and allows for easy removal in case a player proves to be strong enough, or leaves the kingdom. Would be a nice touch in times of war, to equipt newbies with such. You could even put stronger armour and weapons there, knowing they are safe.

GoZelda · #38 01-25-2004, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stefan
There could be a warning if people try to drop something valuable
'This item is of high value. If you want to give it to someone else then it's better to use secure trading - drop it on the other player to see the player-to-player trading menu, or go to one of the trading rooms and use the trade tables for exchanging items.'

Justin Yashimata said something about locking items, so they won't drop. Perhaps you could add this, or an extra mark feature, you mark your equipment, and if you drop it, you get a window like the safe-trading one, saying 'Are you sure you want to drop this?' etc.

Monkeyboy_McGee · #39 01-25-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satrek2000

It would also be possible to create a kingdom armory, with a display which says which item is currently in the posession of which player - and allows for easy removal in case a player proves to be strong enough, or leaves the kingdom. Would be a nice touch in times of war, to equipt newbies with such. You could even put stronger armour and weapons there, knowing they are safe.

Hey yeah, this could be applied to kingdom-specific items like the Zshield or Dustari boots, to stop them leaking like the samurai/forest/pirate shields did

graaliholic · #40 01-25-2004, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GoZelda

Justin Yashimata said something about locking items, so they won't drop. Perhaps you could add this, or an extra mark feature, you mark your equipment, and if you drop it, you get a window like the safe-trading one, saying 'Are you sure you want to drop this?' etc.

GK REALLY needs a way to lock items to your inventory. That way, you don't drop something accedently, and you difinately don't drop relics or other ondroppables (like the sorcerer hat)... and that way you can drop everything you don't want with '/drop all' without dropping everything you're wearing, and all your plat/diamonds.