Thread for Races on Classic

[Tyhm]

How about Nations get no new weapons at all. Races get weapons instead. Humans get everything Humans currently get. Lizardons are constantly in Baddy form. Vampires are vampires for unlife. Dwarves can throw their hammers. Zorbis blow bubbles, heal in water, and dive naturally (A in water or underwater, since there's nothing to lift down there anyway). Aliens naturally respawn and hop everywhere. I seperate Races from Nations, and instead we have any given race in any given nation - Lizardon archers, Zorbis defending BadLand, Alien magi, Dwarven knights, Human ninji....there wouldn't be as many nations this way, but I have my doubts that Graal could really handle 10 or 11 nations with a peak of 90 players.

Additional advantage - I can impliment races sooner than Nations, it could practically be a logon choice.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
Can't create scripts to stop hacking when the new trainers detect and disable all scripts that would otherwise detect them.

Back on topic - how about Nations get no new weapons at all. Races get weapons instead. Humans get everything Humans currently get. Lizardons are constantly in Baddy form. Vampires are vampires for unlife. Dwarves can throw their hammers. Zorbis blow bubbles, heal in water, and dive naturally (A in water or underwater, since there's nothing to lift down there anyway). Aliens naturally respawn and hop everywhere. I seperate Races from Nations, and instead we have any given race in any given nation - Lizardon archers, Zorbis defending BadLand, Alien magi, Dwarven knights, Human ninji....there wouldn't be as many nations this way, but I have my doubts that Graal could really handle 10 or 11 nations with a peak of 90 players.

Additional advantage - I can impliment races sooner than Nations, it could practically be a logon choice.

That sounds like a good option. That way some kindgoms would have a mixture of races. But you wouldnt have enemy races in the same kingdom etc... Such as Dwarves and elves really have a dislike for each other. (for the most part)

[Tyhm]

I can put in restrictions, like Humans cannot join Badland and Lizardons cannot join Graal Nation...

I figure we'd have 6 races, and 6 nations. Each nation could allow all but one race.
Graal Nation - no Lizardons
Ninji Nation - no Vampires
Avalon - no Gnomes
Gaia - no Zorbi
Sardon - no Aliens
Badland/Chaotica - no humans
Or conversely, just let anyone join any. If everyone likes being Human, then Badland Nation's screwed.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
I can put in restrictions, like Humans cannot join Badland and Lizardons cannot join Graal Nation...

I figure we'd have 6 races, and 6 nations. Each nation could allow all but one race.
Graal Nation - no Lizardons
Ninji Nation - no Vampires
Avalon - no Gnomes
Gaia - no Zorbi
Sardon - no Aliens
Badland/Chaotica - no humans
Or conversely, just let anyone join any. If everyone likes being Human, then Badland Nation's screwed.

It would probably be best to make sure evil races cant be with good races Such as Vampires and Humans. I dont think that would work to well. Maybe two races instead of just 1. Such as no Vampires or Lizardons in Graal Nation. No humans or Zorbie/Gaia (which ever) In badlands etc... Or maybe it should be kingdom sesnitive depending on what the kingdom is only certain races can join it.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally posted by Tyhm
I can put in restrictions, like Humans cannot join Badland and Lizardons cannot join Graal Nation...

I figure we'd have 6 races, and 6 nations. Each nation could allow all but one race.
Graal Nation - no Lizardons
Ninji Nation - no Vampires
Avalon - no Gnomes
Gaia - no Zorbi
Sardon - no Aliens
Badland/Chaotica - no humans
Or conversely, just let anyone join any. If everyone likes being Human, then Badland Nation's screwed.

Hmm, that would work.
I'm guessing each race would have it's own passive skill and hoepfully a weakness to even out their strength.
We could also then get rid of MultiNationing so you could only be in one Nation at a time and only have one passive skill.
Still, we have the job on thinking how to even out each race and make them equal in far as power goes, since the players will want to join the race with the most powerful attack and such.

[Tyhm]

And welcome to it! If they want to be a Lizardon, they can be a lizardon and PK all they like - it will not prevent the Zorbi from bubbling them away. It's all in the balance. ^_~

So Graal: No Lizardon or Vampire
Ninji: No Alien or Zorbi
Avalon: No Vampire or Gnome
Sardon: No Alien or Gnome
Gaia: No Human or Lizardon
Badland: No Zorbi or Human

Every race is excluded twice, every nation excludes two races...still sucks to be Badland if Human is the most popular race, but it sucks to be Gaia too.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
And welcome to it! If they want to be a Lizardon, they can be a lizardon and PK all they like - it will not prevent the Zorbi from bubbling them away. It's all in the balance. ^_~

So Graal: No Lizardon or Vampire
Ninji: No Alien or Zorbi
Avalon: No Vampire or Gnome
Sardon: No Alien or Gnome
Gaia: No Human or Lizardon
Badland: No Zorbi or Human

Every race is excluded twice, every nation excludes two races...still sucks to be Badland if Human is the most popular race, but it sucks to be Gaia too.

It sounds good. If it becomes a problem with badland and Gaia. You could always add some sort of NPC as a little incentive for people to join. Seeing as how a major race is excluded an NPC might help balance it. But I would wait and see if its even necessary of course.

[Tyhm]

Yeah, I have an easier time reconciling evil zorbies and vampires with souls than screwing over two nations and telling people what they can't do.

So what's gonna be the Human advantage/otherwiseglobaldisadvantage? Lizardons can't ride horses...hm, which would make the Ninja Quest impossible...I guess they'd keep Baddy Form as an optional...

[freddyfox]

Originally posted by Tyhm
So what's gonna be the Human advantage/otherwiseglobaldisadvantage?

Humans are the "yardstick" in most games. They have no advantages/disadvantages over the other races. They can use all weapons and armor.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
Yeah, I have an easier time reconciling evil zorbies and vampires with souls than screwing over two nations and telling people what they can't do.

So what's gonna be the Human advantage/otherwiseglobaldisadvantage? Lizardons can't ride horses...hm, which would make the Ninja Quest impossible...I guess they'd keep Baddy Form as an optional...

Or maybe just add a script for the ninja quest alone in the horse. I'm not a scripter so maybe it cant be done but something like client.lizardon=true enable horse riding. Just somethign that will let them ride that one horse only.

/ADDON ok just had an idea. You could also maybe have a script that disables lizardon image for quest but once you leave either through warp ring completion of quest or warping out. It could renable the Lizardon image.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Yeah, Humans would have no advantages or disadvantages.
They're just the normal guys. The rest of the races would have an advantage over the humans, but with an equal disadvantage as well, to keep things fair.
Just tell me what we're doing Tyhm and I'll try and give you some ideas.

[Terazel Tenjin]

That was a bit to digest in one sitting, but I think I get the basic idea.

You can break it down like this:

Choose a class, then race, and then a "personality," which computes to Nation, Race, and Passive skill, respectively.

Affiliation will mainly be based on Nation (and basically Race, since it's tied to one another). I'm lost on how you want the advantage/disadvantage thing done, so I am going to assume it's still the same elemental weakness/strength. Choosing a Race would determine the basic scale (ie: Human would be 50-50 on all elementals, while Zorbi, Gaia, Gnome, Alien, and all the "good" Races will be unaffected by the 4 positive elementals but weak against the negative elementals, whereas the "bad" Races will be unaffected by bad magic and weak against good magic), and Nation will specialize in that advantage/disadvantage branch further.

The main problem with the system (no matter which way you go) is the fact that there's such a variety to choose from, certain nations are definitely going to be utterly neglected and basically rendered useless. It might be a good idea to start combining some Nations (or their attributes) to form fewer popular Nations (or just do a public vote to see which ones get voted out).

Also shouldn't limit people from doing the opposite of their Race/Nation's theme or goal. It would be far more interesting to see a rogue dragoon being evil than to have everyone be too predictable and uniformed in their actions. Specialization would be great, but you should also be able to reset and start over with a new "character" because people are bound to ***** about how they screwed up due to a lack of instructions.

[Tyhm]

Lizardon - advantages: Lizardon Form, regeneration
Disadvantages: Can't use magic? Gonna screw up some future quests...double the cost then?
Zorbi - advantages: Bubbles, water healing
Disadvangages: ?
Alien - advantages: Irradiate spell (Lunaris Blast), Respawning.
Disadvantages: Can't...um...get sword 3? Again, gonna screw up some future quests.
Gnome - advantages: Hammer throw, various other weapon upgrades I guess, bomb catching.
Disadvantages: ?
Vampire - advantages: Recover by drinking blood, dash at night/indoors
Disadvantages: Hearts rapidly decrease to 3 outdoors during the day? Can't cross running water?

I need to know what disadvantages I can give these races that won't totally screw up the game.

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
Lizardon - advantages: Lizardon Form, regeneration
Disadvantages: Can't use magic? Gonna screw up some future quests...double the cost then?
Zorbi - advantages: Bubbles, water healing
Disadvangages: ?
Alien - advantages: Irradiate spell (Lunaris Blast), Respawning.
Disadvantages: Can't...um...get sword 3? Again, gonna screw up some future quests.
Gnome - advantages: Hammer throw, various other weapon upgrades I guess, bomb catching.
Disadvantages: ?
Vampire - advantages: Recover by drinking blood, dash at night/indoors
Disadvantages: Hearts rapidly decrease to 3 outdoors during the day? Can't cross running water?

I need to know what disadvantages I can give these races that won't totally screw up the game.

Lizardon disadvantage: Walk slower? Slower healing rate? Should be able to use magic, but maybe the basic elements are less effective when they use it.

Zorbi disadvantage: Slower on land? Can't heal on surface?

Alien disadvantage: Hmmph, that's a tough one. I can say really suck at using weapons, but that would screw things up. No other ideas for it, really, besides maybe they are more vulnerable if they are not on Lunaris, or they do that drunk animation whenever they get hit (so long as you are a part of the nation, doesn't count as passive).

Gnome disadvantage: Easily interrupted attacks, or their attacks are slow?

Vampire disadvantage: REALLY slow in water, can't use their tools to fullest power in daylight. Normal at night.

[Tyhm]

Hm.
Lizardons walk slower, that's pretty good...could make some conveyor-belt style levels impossible though. Making their magic less effective's gonna be tough - maybe they're just naturally super-vulnerable to all magic?
A Zorbi with a PK tag wouldn't even notice being unable to heal on land...plus, again, I fear for the Zorbi newbies if they try to get through the conveyor belts in AvWell.
Aliens, drunk when hit...that could be good.
Gnomes...I kinda like the idea of their attacks being slow...maybe they get a slight freeze after swinging their sword? They have to recover? Or trade that with the Aliens...
Vampires are gonna have no trouble at all with quests, as they're basically all outdoor. Since it's night half the time anyway, they only have to worry about a very small set of cases - when they're outdoors during the day.
So far we got dizzy when hit, longer sword recovery time, and I guess I can throw in no Lizardon sword...one or more of the nations have to trade it in as an item instead of a sword to get a different upgrade...but which nation gets what?

Here's an idea - Gnomes don't get swords at all. It's utterly replaced with their hammer. ^_^

Ditto the Zorbi - they get the bubble wand and "punch", which acts just like the sword, but always at Level 1...

Vampires and Lizardon keep their swords...

Aliens get a shockwave attack they have to charge up? Like Kirby's Beam from SuperStar...tap S, slow-moving beam sword...hold and release S, forward blasting beam sword...hold S and release at max, radial damage (requires spin, basically)...

[Terazel Tenjin]

Then we go back to my idea about martial arts "replacing" swords for Ninji...that would only make perfect sense. -_-

Aliens? I don't know. Maybe they should get something effectively defensive like a taser (I'd call it a shocklance from Tribes 2, which kills instantly if you hit enemies in the back, little damage if you hit them anywhere up front) that CAN kill if you direct it behind the enemy or charge it up, as you said. That'd be their sword. Gnome and hammer, yeah, that would work out nicely. Same with Zorbi.

Should keep all sword replacements close range so they don't get a range advantage over other races, unless they are defensive weapons.

Gnomes should have sufficient defense so they don't get dizzy when they get hit, but Aliens are explorers, so they should due to the fact that they are just scouts not knowing with the expect. ^_~

[DarkCloud_PK]

Lunaris/Alien Race could move a lot slower if not on the moon.
To prevent the convyer belts from chewing them up, they could have some kind of boots that when turned on restore their speed to normal, yet it drains MP when on, it'd be part of the disadvantage.

Perhaps Zorbi's could fatigue when not in water. They'd have a little bar the pops up on top when they are out of water, which slowly drains when out of water, and recharges when in water. As the bar gets lower, their attack speed and walking speed would slowly drop.

[Tyhm]

Sounds good. We may have something here....

Ninji is still a nation, and not a race...but I guess if someone still has the martial arts ganis left over from when G2K1 went with the new bodies, that'd be coo'...

So which race do I make first? The peaceloving Zorbi might win in a straight poll, but the Lizardon are the most obvious anthitheses of Humans...I do kinda wanna make the Gnomes, but I better wait on fixing the hammer graphics /ganis first...

They'd be the easiest to do plotwise too, come to think of it...start the player in the Gnome barracks instead of the orphanage...script the maid to grant NewbieSaint just like Sister Gertrude...they get the hammer pretty quick just talking to the king, then Adroit...put some rocks in the hallway to keep them from getting directly out...change some signs to point them towards Graal Castle, where the ambassador said he was fleeing to...go the long way, get the glove there, walk the ambassador home, resume the quest as usual with the rocks cleared...

Lizardons are gonna need their own start place, glove quest, hammer quest...figure it could connect to the Gnome Mines at the skull room, one doorway goes back to the Gnome Mines and is closed to Lizardons, the other doorway goes back to the Lizardon Mines and is closed to everyone else....

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
Lunaris/Alien Race could move a lot slower if not on the moon.
To prevent the convyer belts from chewing them up, they could have some kind of boots that when turned on restore their speed to normal, yet it drains MP when on, it'd be part of the disadvantage.

Perhaps Zorbi's could fatigue when not in water. They'd have a little bar the pops up on top when they are out of water, which slowly drains when out of water, and recharges when in water. As the bar gets lower, their attack speed and walking speed would slowly drop.

No comment on the conveyer belt.

I like fatigue, but I think they should be slow all around anyway. Could also go a reverse route and have them adjust to the land speed the longer they stay on land, and then they move slower in the water until they adapt to THAT again, but that's probably too intricate to be worthy.

If a fatigue/stamina bar is adopted, it should also be present for Lunaris and Vampire, too.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally posted by Terazel Tenjin


No comment on the conveyer belt.

I like fatigue, but I think they should be slow all around anyway. Could also go a reverse route and have them adjust to the land speed the longer they stay on land, and then they move slower in the water until they adapt to THAT again, but that's probably too intricate to be worthy.

If a fatigue/stamina bar is adopted, it should also be present for Lunaris and Vampire, too.

No, wouldn't need bars for Lunaris and Vampire.
Lunaris's gravity is lower than it is on Graal, so as soon as they get on Graal, the effects of our gravity would start right away, not slowly.
Vampires would slowly get slower as it gets lighter, only bar there'd is one shoing how light it is getting.

With Zorbis, they are slowly drying up as they are off land.

[Tyhm]

Um, DC, the trouble comes in that there is no water at all in the main quest until Babord, and there is no magic by the time you get to the avalon well...

[DarkCloud_PK]

Hmm, perhaps they would get a protective bubble for breathing until they have access to water, or they could buy little water canisters or something from shops and/or Sister Gertrude.
But on the other hand, water can be easily added and it wouldn't be totally nessicary to have full energy to go through quests.

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK

Lunaris's gravity is lower than it is on Graal, so as soon as they get on Graal, the effects of our gravity would start right away, not slowly.

So they would move slower and then return to normal speed?

Or maybe the less they attack/use weapons, the more normal they would walk. Everytime they use a weapon or some sort or an attack or some sort that doesn't measure up to running away or other types of defenses, they slow down again and have to wait to build up normal speed?

For Zorbis (Zorbas, whatever), it would make sense for them to dry up, but that might get too complicated for its own good. Should just make them slow, too. But then the innovation in the idea of disadvantages get old...we really need to test these things out to see how they work in real situations, like we did with the nations (Graal, Vampire, et cetera).

While we're at it, maybe we need to revamp some nation weapons too (Ninji's stars, Graal's judgement, Dragoon's jump).

[Tyhm]

Bleh.

Zorbi are gonna be a pain. Best way to work it would be to have them start out underwater, in an underwater orphanage in Ceres town, get a lot of stuff there as a mirror to the Human quests, then surface somewhere around Avalon...I suppose I could just set up the Gnome mines so the ambient water is accessable, have them start out in the human orphanage, but euh.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally posted by Terazel Tenjin


So they would move slower and then return to normal speed?

Or maybe the less they attack/use weapons, the more normal they would walk. Everytime they use a weapon or some sort or an attack or some sort that doesn't measure up to running away or other types of defenses, they slow down again and have to wait to build up normal speed?

For Zorbis (Zorbas, whatever), it would make sense for them to dry up, but that might get too complicated for its own good. Should just make them slow, too. But then the innovation in the idea of disadvantages get old...we really need to test these things out to see how they work in real situations, like we did with the nations (Graal, Vampire, et cetera).

While we're at it, maybe we need to revamp some nation weapons too (Ninji's stars, Graal's judgement, Dragoon's jump).

Yeah, I agree we need to test this stuff first, since we can only assume the effects.
Zorbi's wouldn't dry up entirely, they'd just get fatigued.
I just used the term so you could see why they'd have that bar.

[Tyhm]

I'd just as soon avoid having another status bar...

[Tyhm]

Baddy form set up - it'll slow players slightly without sending them backwards. Pretty sure it works everywhere, I'll lock it in the On position and replay the whole damn game with it on. It'll need a LOT of new ganis and require rescripting a LOT of NPCs, but it'll be worth it.

Trouble is, if Lizardons are slow, and Lunarians are slow...but Lizardons get no shield...so I guess they're not as slow, huh? ^_~

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
Baddy form set up - it'll slow players slightly without sending them backwards. Pretty sure it works everywhere, I'll lock it in the On position and replay the whole damn game with it on. It'll need a LOT of new ganis and require rescripting a LOT of NPCs, but it'll be worth it.

Trouble is, if Lizardons are slow, and Lunarians are slow...but Lizardons get no shield...so I guess they're not as slow, huh? ^_~

Sounds good, especially if you're doing the "build up normal speed if not attacking" package for Lunaris...

Now, onto other problems...Dragoons...

[Tyhm]

Okay, so Lizardons - locked in the Lizardon Form, (Guess I'll make a special way of setting it since coat/sleeve is so janky), Slightly slower (and it can be boosted to almost human speed through scripting) - now Baddies do have shields, they're just wholly ineffective, do I give the baddy race shields? Take away Newbie Saint...they have slow regen...
They're just a few ganis and some testing/debugging/balancing away from ready to release then.

Oh yeah, spin sucks...what should they get instead?

[DarkCloud_PK]

Junction status effects to swords for MP. You'd turn on an NPC, and for each slash you swing with your sword, it would take away like 4 MP and have a 50% chance of causing a status change based on whatever status Tyhm would deem for them. Like for instance, Posion Sword for Ninjis, costs four 4mp a swing, but has a 50% chance of poisioning the target with each hit.

Could have Ice Sword.
Flame Sword.
Confusion Sword.
Posion Sword.

[Terazel Tenjin]

Maybe for Gaia? They are somewhat sadly underpowered, too.

For Lizardon...bleh. What else is there besides flamebreath, clawshoot, and spinning? Maybe some sort of primative portable rocket launcher??? Molotov ****tails??? Beats me.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Drain Sword for Lizardions, or something of the such, getting a little health back for killing or harming their prey.

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
Drain Sword for Lizardions, or something of the such, getting a little health back for killing or harming their prey.

Sounds like bloodlust. Almost vampire-like. Maybe they are cannibals? Heh.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally posted by Terazel Tenjin


Sounds like bloodlust. Almost vampire-like. Maybe they are cannibals? Heh.

Could work for Vamps too, heh.

[Tyhm]

Vampires already have the closest I could muster to Drain Sword.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Wasn't really going for Vamps.
I wanted to give a drain sword to Lizardion and a Posion Sword to Ninji to replace those stars.

Edit: Could add a status effect to Avalon's sword move to give it more use, like the death magic effect.

A random sword status effect could be nice too, don't see a Nation to link it to though.

[Terazel Tenjin]

I personally don't favor the sword magics for NATIONS. If anything, it should just be magic and unrelated to Nations/Races...

[Tyhm]

Yeah. I might do sword magic as a seperate thing. Wouldn't be hard to integrate into the crystal ball, assuming I don't run out of space again first.

For Lizardon...maybe Shockwave? Send a ripple of energy along the ground at the target, it sorta traces like a Lode Knife, but without the dead on accuracy...

[Terazel Tenjin]

Originally posted by Tyhm
Yeah. I might do sword magic as a seperate thing. Wouldn't be hard to integrate into the crystal ball, assuming I don't run out of space again first.

For Lizardon...maybe Shockwave? Send a ripple of energy along the ground at the target, it sorta traces like a Lode Knife, but without the dead on accuracy...

Earthquake type thing...hmm...I guess that could work. Maybe ability to attack multiple enemies like so...

[Tyhm]

It would send out three ripples...they track along the ground and find the three closest enemies (humans, baddies if you're not in the Badland Nation - they'll retain the Lizardon Nation's old Contract With The Baddies passive power so that regular Lizardons can do regular quests), then start adjusting towards them...like bowling, it's an inertia thing, sometimes it hits, sometimes it hits other than your target, sometimes it hammers your target for (swordpower+2) halfhearts