Observer Mode pending removal!

[skillmaster19]

Well UN is doomed, the only people that are gonna play it is the people with lifetime classic.

[ffcmike]

I personally feel observer mode is a much better limitation to have compared to not being able to save as it was up until 2007, the big problems with it are:

• Bugs
• Inability to manipulate the player properly
• No way to determine how much free time a trial has

It is for these problems that UN, aswell as Classic in the past have not allowed trials to play events or spars, which are relied upon more heavily with traditional style servers.

If Stefan + Unixmad can't remove observer mode, they should at least make it so that when changing an observer's level, it is actually synced to other players clients, so they aren't blocked in a spar or event. There's also a problem where modifying an observer's variables serverside is not saving.

There should also be a way to determine how much free time a player has, if they have more than a certain amount then they can participate in an event without problems.

[ShadowFist]

Time will tell if this ACTUALLY gets done.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I personally feel observer mode is a much better limitation to have compared to not being able to save as it was up until 2007

The lesser of two evils.

[ffcmike]

It would also be better if rather than entering observer mode every single login, it actually kept track of the last time you entered observer mode including on different servers. Something incredibly frustrating is when a player experiences a bug in a quest caused by observer mode, and you have to tell them to reconnect, which ofcourse gives them another bout of waiting.

Looking away from the technical side of things, 5 hours a month is a meagre amount of time. It would take a new player longer than that to even become familiarised with a server like UN. Sometimes on Classic trials tell me they don't want to play through the quests simply because it will eat away at their remaining time, which even though there's nothing else to do as it's under construction, is quite true because the quests can take new players a few hours to play through.

As crazy as this might sound at first, it would even be useful if there was a way to actually force a player into observer mode, because when there's a bug caused by observer mode it's a huge pain in the arse to debug it when you have to log on a trial, sit through observer, prepare for the bug, wait for observer, then sit through observer again to try and determine/fix the problem.

[EclipsedAngel]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I personally feel observer mode is a much better limitation to have compared to not being able to save as it was up until 2007, the big problems with it are:

• Bugs
• Inability to manipulate the player properly
• No way to determine how much free time a trial has

It is for these problems that UN, aswell as Classic in the past have not allowed trials to play events or spars, which are relied upon more heavily with traditional style servers.

If Stefan + Unixmad can't remove observer mode, they should at least make it so that when changing an observer's level, it is actually synced to other players clients, so they aren't blocked in a spar or event. There's also a problem where modifying an observer's variables serverside is not saving.

There should also be a way to determine how much free time a player has, if they have more than a certain amount then they can participate in an event without problems.

I remember when I temporarily had to use trial again, I'd spend an hour doing all the quests, each single time I logged on.

[geneticfrog]

there is hardly any reason for a new player to go on UN over era and zodiac. mostly sicne on UN they are limit in game play time.

I dont know anyone that prefers waiting to play.


Its a vicious circle.


well the server is just about dead now due to lack of new players. I wonder whats better a dead server or making the server no limit to play while UN adds a micro transaction shop.

there is tons of potential for micro transaction items on UN, more so then era and zodiac.

Sooo having the server shut down or letting it be free so staff can work on it and new players who are potential future staff could as well.

I find it funny how unimax or stefan chooses to just let it rott away killing any potential new olbies or new staff if the players working for FREE dont do something to save the server that stefan/unixmad owns.

Blame stefan or who ever it was in unixmad that decided to keep observer mode for killing UN.in the end the FREE staff doing labour to make YOU(stefan/unixmad) money tried but you denied taking off observer mode.

No one is going to pay money to get on UN, I guess you rather throw your own server in the toilet. even though UN has no limit in the type on content and thus has more options for micro transaction shops.


Dont blame the FREE staff, in the end you guys are the REAL owners of UN and all you have been doing is bringing it down.DO something with the server YOU OWN and remove observer mode!!! the staff on UN is trying to make money FOR YOU so HELP THEM already.

Dont throw UN away like you did to npulse, HELP us make you money and REMOVE OBSERVER MODE

[geneticfrog]

We all know stefan/unixmad will never acutally create anything for UN but you guys could STILL help the server....

a SIMPLE deal would be enough As in UN has gets observer mode removed but in exchange all the staff has to focus on making a GELAT shop for UN before a set date.

or else just put observer mode back and then delete the server once all the playesr are gone.


Like npulse.

[Loakey_P2P]

Originally Posted by geneticfrog

there is hardly any reason for a new player to go on UN over era and zodiac. mostly sicne on UN they are limit in game play time.

I dont know anyone that prefers waiting to play.


Its a vicious circle.


well the server is just about dead now due to lack of new players. I wonder whats better a dead server or making the server no limit to play while UN adds a micro transaction shop.

there is tons of potential for micro transaction items on UN, more so then era and zodiac.

Sooo having the server shut down or letting it be free so staff can work on it and new players who are potential future staff could as well.

I find it funny how unimax or stefan chooses to just let it rott away killing any potential new olbies or new staff if the players working for FREE dont do something to save the server that stefan/unixmad owns.

Blame stefan or who ever it was in unixmad that decided to keep observer mode for killing UN.in the end the FREE staff doing labour to make YOU(stefan/unixmad) money tried but you denied taking off observer mode.

No one is going to pay money to get on UN, I guess you rather throw your own server in the toilet. even though UN has no limit in the type on content and thus has more options for micro transaction shops.


Dont blame the FREE staff, in the end you guys are the REAL owners of UN and all you have been doing is bringing it down.DO something with the server YOU OWN and remove observer mode!!! the staff on UN is trying to make money FOR YOU so HELP THEM already.

Dont throw UN away like you did to npulse, HELP us make you money and REMOVE OBSERVER MODE

I'd +rep this if i could .

[skillmaster19]

Since Stefan refused to remove observer mode, can we at least get rid of the trial restrictions we put in to get it removed?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet.

Yes, it can, and you should do it.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by Crono

Yes, it can, and you should do it.

I second this

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet.

Sure it can!

Originally Posted by Stefan

Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff

Originally Posted by Stefan

so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured.

Hire non-player staff and it will be more secured; observer mode can then disappear and Graal can be free. :]

Then I will help advertise Graal, when I can develop without paying or doing super rewards and having people send me mail to my house, which has happened, or giving me junkmail.

[ffcmike]

Observer mode should be removed everywhere, not simply because of the fact it is a restriction in itself, but because it is a poorly implemented game-killing restriction. The problems + bugs caused by it are so severe that staff are left with no choice but to exclude trials from PVP activities so as not to hinder the experience of upgraded players.

Even when it comes to questing content trials can very easily become stuck due to problems inflicted by observer mode, and as I've said before it is a massive pain in the arse to log on a trial and attempt to debug these problems.

It's also somewhat annoying that I've gone through so much effort to put together abstract pluggable systems, where one system will uninitialize before another system initializes, in a way which avoids bugs, only for observer mode to often throw a spanner into the works.

That said, if Stefan and Unixmad honestly think it would be more financially beneficial to keep observer mode than remove it, then the reasons for not being able to remove it have already been made clear.

While not ideal, it is much simpler to implement a rigid collection of global shop items for servers which revolve around economies or character levelling. For a more traditional server it would be much harder to accomplish it in this way, a much easier method being what is done on the iPhone servers, which is selling a currency within the global shop and then being free to add and sell a higher variety of items in game.

The problem with the more flexible method however is that the currency needs to be secure. It can't be handed out at vast rates, the item prices can't be too cheap, it can't be handed out by corrupt staff, it needs to be logged, it needs to be kept track of, it needs to be impossible to obtain by hacking etc.

Stefan and Unixmad can't realistically monitor and enforce this as much with PC servers as they can with iPhone servers, therefore they need to be 100% sure that the systems are secure, the staff are trustworthy, and any involved currencies are sustainable.

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

The problem with the more flexible method however is that the currency needs to be secure.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

It can't be handed out at vast rates, the item prices can't be too cheap,

Originally Posted by ffcmike

it can't be handed out by corrupt staff,

Originally Posted by ffcmike

it needs to be logged,

Originally Posted by ffcmike

it needs to be kept track of,

Originally Posted by ffcmike

it needs to be impossible to obtain by hacking etc.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

they need to be 100% sure that the systems are secure, the staff are trustworthy, and any involved currencies are sustainable.

Originally Posted by Devil_Lord2

Hire non-player staff and it will be more secured; observer mode can then disappear and Graal can be free. :]

Actually paid professionals would have less bias.

They could make a list of how much something is paid for and raise it accordingly.

They would have no problem with handling items correctly.

They could log it, they could keep track of it.

They could script it.

I don't see the problem here.
Hire a professional!

Cost too much? Not really sure if you can have both free and someone to do all the work correctly. I horribly want to post a picture of you can't both have the cake and eat it.

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

I second this

I love that signature. o.O
charming.

[ffcmike]

Problem with suggesting a professional be hired is that it's just as unlikely as observer mode simply being removed.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Problem with suggesting a professional be hired is that it's just as unlikely as observer mode simply being removed.

ahahaha

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Problem with suggesting a professional be hired is that it's just as unlikely as observer mode simply being removed.

or Graal have decent support

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

or Graal have decent support

How about a support center?

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

How about a support center?

I might be mistaking , but I thought Graal already tried the whole support center thing. I think it failed miserably .

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

I might be mistaking , but I thought Graal already tried the whole support center thing. I think it failed miserably .

It worked pretty well except they chose the wrong software, and it had a number of bugs that resulted in a list of usernames, passwords, and emails being released for its 4,000+ members.

[Starfire2001]

If the purpose of UN is simply to get people to buy gold, and a gelat shop isn't possible for whatever reason, then...
1) Removing observer mode
2) Allowing players to play non team events (which is about half of them)
3) Limiting their full hearts to 10 out of 13 and shield power to 2 so they move slow and repeatedly get destroyed

plus the current trial restrictions on hats, sparring, and currency, would probably be more likely to get players frustrated enough buy gold. Got to at least give them a taste of what they are missing out on. Not allowing them to do anything at all interesting + making them unable to move or do anything every 15 minutes or so only makes people quit, and if they are interested in classic style graal only, quit PC Graal entirely as UN is atm the only non dev option for that.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

How about a support center?

Force one on Stefan/unix already.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It worked pretty well except they chose the wrong software, and it had a number of bugs that resulted in a list of usernames, passwords, and emails being released for its 4,000+ members.

Now you mentioned that it would be good if there was a way to find out what our passwords were in order to prevent the potential to be phished.

[Loakey_P2P]

Originally Posted by Starfire2001

If the purpose of UN is simply to get people to buy gold, and a gelat shop isn't possible for whatever reason, then...
1) Removing observer mode
2) Allowing players to play non team events (which is about half of them)
3) Limiting their full hearts to 10 out of 13 and shield power to 2 so they move slow and repeatedly get destroyed

plus the current trial restrictions on hats, sparring, and currency, would probably be more likely to get players frustrated enough buy gold. Got to at least give them a taste of what they are missing out on. Not allowing them to do anything at all interesting + making them unable to move or do anything every 15 minutes or so only makes people quit, and if they are interested in classic style graal only, quit PC Graal entirely as UN is atm the only non dev option for that.

I'm kinda curious about the stats concerning how many people have payed for graal since it was implemented . doesn't seem like the player count has improved at all which leads me to believe this is as successful as the support center .

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Now you mentioned that it would be good if there was a way to find out what our passwords were in order to prevent the potential to be phished.

They emailed everybody on the list to let them know (2012/07/09). PM me your email address(es) if you want to know if you're on the list.

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Force one on Stefan/unix already.

Tig actually spent a considerable amount of time doing research and testing various options to find one that would suit Graal's needs, but he never received a response from Stefan or unixmad.

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Problem with suggesting a professional be hired is that it's just as unlikely as observer mode simply being removed.

I didn't actually think it would be done, only stating what he said can't be done can be done by something that won't be done. That is what I done. :[

[skillmaster19]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

So, Stefan, about that.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

Originally Posted by skillmaster19

So, Stefan, about that.

Everything said in the original quote has since been contradicted.

[dbug]

Has UN tried making adjustments to there proposal for the removal of observer mode since this thread was created? Just curious.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by dbug

Has UN tried making adjustments to there proposal for the removal of observer mode since this thread was created? Just curious.

It wouldn't have made any difference.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by dbug

Has UN tried making adjustments to there proposal for the removal of observer mode since this thread was created? Just curious.

All they gotta do is add instance'd houses, gralat hats, and they're pretty much like iClassic. lel

[dbug]

Originally Posted by Crono

All they gotta do is add instance'd houses, gralat hats, and they're pretty much like iClassic. lel

Instance'd houses? I know Stefan said that since its not about leveling and all that that it was special... but why can't it be limited to hearts (quests) and stuff? like 4 or 5 hearts.. i can't imagine it would be hard to have something like that done.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by dbug

Instance'd houses? I know Stefan said that since its not about leveling and all that that it was special... but why can't it be limited to hearts (quests) and stuff? like 4 or 5 hearts.. i can't imagine it would be hard to have something like that done.

you mean pay to acquire hp? no.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by Crono

you mean pay to acquire hp? no.

Well I ment as in like a 1 time upgrade.. sorta a lifetime for that server subscription. since it's already "free" to play like era and zodiac.. but i see your point.. hmm

theres gotta be something equal UN could offer tho. besides selling items. honestly maybe sell hat's? since thats pretty big over there.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by dbug

Well I ment as in like a 1 time upgrade.. sorta a lifetime for that server subscription. since it's already "free" to play like era and zodiac.. but i see your point.. hmm

theres gotta be something equal UN could offer tho. besides selling items. honestly maybe sell hat's? since thats pretty big over there.

It's irrelevant, Stefan has said he doesn't want PlayerWorlds using in-game incentives and transactions, but to all use hard coded restrictions (Zodiac and Era included), while in the present the servers with observer mode must continue to suffer.

That said, the supposed map restriction could effectively limit trials to low HP.

[DustyPorViva]

So what system are PC servers meant to run under? Are they still using the global gralat shop or what? On iClassic/iEra they just use in-game gralats as a currency, which helps a lot in giving players a choice. They can either just buy more in-game gralats, or they can actually obtain them in-game at a much slower pace. This is what cash shops are about. But is that even possible on PC? I mean, if UN were to go to such a system what would stop staff from just collapsing the system by giving their friends tons of gralats? All it would take is someone with a single RW level to do his bidding.

I guess on PC the global shop is the only secure way to have such a system because of exploits. I feel maybe Stefan should instead set up a server config when enabled locks down things like player.rupees and such. That way servers can opt for an iServer sort of set-up, and not worry about one rogue staff exploiting it all.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

So what system are PC servers meant to run under? Are they still using the global gralat shop or what? On iClassic/iEra they just use in-game gralats as a currency, which helps a lot in giving players a choice. They can either just buy more in-game gralats, or they can actually obtain them in-game at a much slower pace. This is what cash shops are about. But is that even possible on PC? I mean, if UN were to go to such a system what would stop staff from just collapsing the system by giving their friends tons of gralats? All it would take is someone with a single RW level to do his bidding.

I guess on PC the global shop is the only secure way to have such a system because of exploits. I feel maybe Stefan should instead set up a server config when enabled locks down things like player.rupees and such. That way servers can opt for an iServer sort of set-up, and not worry about one rogue staff exploiting it all.

Couldn't they add a login script and a server option so they could lock rupee's down and still provide access to them? like limit how many can be given via script? log potential abuse.. or how would servers provide gralats without abuse?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by dbug

Couldn't they add a login script and a server option so they could lock rupee's down and still provide access to them? like limit how many can be given via script? log potential abuse.. or how would servers provide gralats without abuse?

I think if Gralat's were locked, only specific scripts would be able to add them(for example on iClassic that would be the actual Gralats NPC dropped by bushes, and the script that gives gralats for bugs sold); and it would be logged.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I think if Gralat's were locked, only specific scripts would be able to add them(for example on iClassic that would be the actual Gralats NPC dropped by bushes, and the script that gives gralats for bugs sold); and it would be logged.

Well once iZone comes to PC maybe this will be the beginning to the new way of how things work.. It might be the first test to how a system like this may actually work? tho I dont see how you would get gelets on zone for ezample? same with era.. arent there currency different?