Doesn't anyone want to pool together to make something?

[Hiro]

I bet if all the development staff working on current servers made a new one it might actually get done.

Not that that'd ever happen realistically but, something new needs to happen.

[Tricxta]

Originally Posted by Hiro

Not that that'd ever happen realistically but, something new needs to happen.

To give stefan another chance to fart-ass someone around again?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Tricxta

To give stefan another chance to fart-ass someone around again?

It'd be cool if Stefan made the server.

[ffcmike]

Developing an entirely new server isn't going to solve any of the current problems.
Solving the current problems however could make it more feasible for new servers to be developed.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Developing an entirely new server isn't going to solve any of the current problems.
Solving the current problems however could make it more feasible for new servers to be developed.

Keeping things stale isn't helping either. We need something new.

[PhantosP2P]

If people can't cooperate together on their own private projects, what makes you think they will come together to create something? Put three NATs together and you've already got one trying to cut down the other; the third never logs in.

Originally Posted by Hiro

something new needs to happen.

Oh? Why? The path of least resistance has worked pretty well, as far as business models go. I don't see any reason for why something new needs to happen. It'd be nice, but what's the impetus?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Hiro

Keeping things stale isn't helping either. We need something new.

So you're saying that all of the developers on current servers, which they may have already put a lot of time and effort towards, should get together and focus on an entirely new server, where it's likely they'd have different ideas and practices, to spend an incredible amount of time and effort building it from scratch, then be faced with either dislodging existing players from their home server, or attracting new players in light of a deer price for a temporary subscription with harsh trial restrictions, all for the sake of something new?

You're also saying that a Graal Administrator, who isn't known for being astute with server design, should push aside the massive to-do list of things that are arguably overdue, in order to attempt a mountainous task that so many teams of developers have failed to accomplish in over half a dozen years?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

If people can't cooperate together on their own private projects, what makes you think they will come together to create something? Put three NATs together and you've already got one trying to cut down the other; the third never logs in.

Oh? Why? The path of least resistance has worked pretty well, as far as business models go. I don't see any reason for why something new needs to happen. It'd be nice, but what's the impetus?

Problems like that are sure to arise but it's been conquered before.

And something needs to happen because PC Graal is boring and not worth paying for, sad to say. At least for what they're asking, and especially given how successful iGraal is.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

So you're saying that all of the developers on current servers, which they may have already put a lot of time and effort towards, should get together and focus on an entirely new server, where it's likely they'd have different ideas and practices, to spend an incredible amount of time and effort building it from scratch, then be faced with either dislodging existing players from their home server, or attracting new players in light of a deer price for a temporary subscription with harsh trial restrictions, all for the sake of something new?

You're also saying that a Graal Administrator, who isn't known for being astute with server design, should push aside the massive to-do list of things that are arguably overdue, in order to attempt a mountainous task that so many teams of developers have failed to accomplish in over half a dozen years?

In a eloquent way of being biased, yes that is what I'm saying.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Hiro

PC Graal is boring and not worth paying for

Given that the development of an entirely new server requires developers to pay for Gold, there are much simpler and obvious solutions to this problem.

[PhantosP2P]

Originally Posted by Hiro

And something needs to happen because PC Graal is boring and not worth paying for, sad to say.

Of course. You're preaching to the choir on that one. Not a single person frequenting this forum would ever suggest that PC Graal is worth the money, except maybe Unixmad.

But why is it up the community to make it worth money, and not say... the people taking in all of the profit?

I'll cut to the chase: it isn't worth it for any player to clean this mess up, not until we've been given better tools, clearer communication, or just a slice of the pie we're selling.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Given that the development of an entirely new server requires developers to pay for Gold, there are much simpler and obvious solutions to this problem.

The current management is incompetent to keep itself on it's feet. Unless you'd rather have PC Graal die in favor of iGraal, what other alternative is there?

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

Of course. You're preaching to the choir on that one. Not a single person frequenting this forum would ever suggest that PC Graal is worth the money, except maybe Unixmad.

But why is it up the community to make it worth money, and not say... the people taking in all of the profit?

I'll cut to the chase: it isn't worth it for any player to clean this mess up, not until we've been given better tools, clearer communication, or just a slice of the pie we're selling.

Which is why it'd be nice if Stefan lead the development at least somewhat. However, the obvious focus for him has been iGraal since it's actually made money.

Maybe he would get interested in a big project and provide some support for it. Farfetched but, still maybe.

[Felix_Xenophobe]

hell yea bro im up for it lets pool our **** together

[StormYs]

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

But why is it up the community to make it worth money, and not say... the people taking in all of the profit?

This.

I have no clue why people are accepting this, it's a reversed world.

[NicoX]

Originally Posted by StormYs

This.

I have no clue why people are accepting this, it's a reversed world.

Because the people are just stupid. They develope their ass off to be someone great in this game, but all the money goes straight to Stefan + unixmad. Thats it. You can be Manager of Era, Zodiac or whereever you want, even Iphone Classic or Era. You dont get even 1% of the profits they make. Why not working for free in real life? Show me how you pay ur bills then.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by NicoX

Because the people are just stupid. They develope their ass off to be someone great in this game, but all the money goes straight to Stefan + unixmad. Thats it. You can be Manager of Era, Zodiac or whereever you want, even Iphone Classic or Era. You dont get even 1% of the profits they make. Why not working for free in real life? Show me how you pay ur bills then.

I'm just going to say if you develop a game on Graal, chances are you already should be reconsidering your tactics for your idea, because Graal is its own thing, why would you create your own game on something you have no control over. It has always been a place for hobbyists to do something, talking to people or developing an idea. The rules even state more or less that whatever non-copyrighted material is uploaded to Graal servers, it is theirs to own.

I feel like anything beyond that reasoning right there is just ignorance waiting for exploit, Which Stefan feeds off of.

[TheGodAngelo]

Originally Posted by StormYs

This.

I have no clue why people are accepting this, it's a reversed world.

i just like to create, don't hate me

[fowlplay4]

Given this is a volunteer-ran game and I don't really make any money doing it, I'm completely over intentional stressing myself with development, and prefer to work on what I want and with people I like.

[DrakilorP2P]

Hiro I've seen you post some cool ideas occasionally. You should make your own playerworld, get some of the basics finished, and then ask if anyone wants to help out.

[kia345]

Why not contribute to an existent server that's going downhill. As opposed to making something new that will go downhill.


In case you haven't noticed, PC Graal is stretched thin. None of the servers look like appealing, playable games, and they're all too different to see a large shared playerbase. You're not going to "save" the game with a new server, no matter how quality it is. What you can do is address present faults. Giving people a reason to stick around is far more feasible than creating something to bring people in (the latter isn't the Graal developer's job anyway).

[TheGodAngelo]

Not to mention you'd be fighting the games owners every step of the way until they just ban you.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DrakilorP2P

Hiro I've seen you post some cool ideas occasionally. You should make your own playerworld, get some of the basics finished, and then ask if anyone wants to help out.

I am incapable of bringing a team together to work on a server, apparently, so I will never have any of my ideas see fruition.

Originally Posted by kia345

Why not contribute to an existent server that's going downhill. As opposed to making something new that will go downhill.

You're not going to "save" the game with a new server, no matter how quality it is. What you can do is address present faults. Giving people a reason to stick around is far more feasible than creating something to bring people in (the latter isn't the Graal developer's job anyway).

Creating something new is going to be what makes players stick around.

You know as well as I do that the only people sticking around are those who have been playing a long time with the random iPhone kid who shows up every once in awhile. And you know that whenever a new server is released, even if it's old and busted, the player-count goes up and people get together. Now if there's an actual reason to stay on the server after the release population swell, then we'll have something worth playing. It could even be complete **** bare bones and it would be more worthwhile than say, UN or Classic.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Hiro

You know as well as I do

You seem to be under the false impression that you actually know what you're talking about.

What you're doing is presenting a short-sighted idea, an ill thought out pipedream, and then talking out of your ass to defend it. You're not speaking up with some brilliant insight that's going to revitalize the game and usher in a new era, you're repeating the same blissful thread that has happened every few months for the past few years.

Another server won't fix anything. Everyone's had the same silly high spirits as you at one point, but it's quite blatant as to what the problem is: Graal isn't good. More servers - even a single, fantastic one - will just be the equivalent of sweeping the dust under the rug. It's not going to fix anything, just very briefly make it look less obvious. This has happened so many times before, and done nothing to improve Graal as a whole - because it's beyond improving. And why should it even be improved? Where is the motivation to create a wonderful server? Then what? You manage it, you update it. All for nothing. Until a few staff members drop out, get replaced with less enthusiastic and talented ones, oblivious to the original sight. And then the server becomes Endora. It becomes Delteria. It becomes N-Pulse or Shaded Legend. It becomes any one of the countless servers who owe their unexistence to your very line of thinking.

Look at the iPhone servers. Look at their popularity. It's not a matter of a good server. They excel because of their accessibility. PC Graal being successful and polished and playable is water from a stone by this point. iGraal has found a way to just sell the stones. PC Graal's problem is nothing related to the content. The content is what you'd expect from diligent (yet unpaid) developers. PC Graal's problem is the nonchalant administration who don't give a **** about working with the people actually responsible for their paying customers.

So instead of wasting your time and everyone's effort on a new server doomed to fail, why don't you contribute to what already exists and is known to keep players around? A fascinating new server isn't what dragged me back, with high hopes and determination for a fun game. The prospect of sitting in some level slightly younger than I am and chatting with a few friends did.

[PhantosP2P]

I don't think anymore could be said, in any better fashion, than what was just said above.

Change must come from without, not within. We are still waiting.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by kia345

You seem to be under the false impression that you actually know what you're talking about.

Oh please.

Originally Posted by kia345

What you're doing is presenting a short-sighted idea, an ill thought out pipedream, and then talking out of your ass to defend it. You're not speaking up with some brilliant insight that's going to revitalize the game and usher in a new era, you're repeating the same blissful thread that has happened every few months for the past few years.

Another server won't fix anything. Everyone's had the same silly high spirits as you at one point, but it's quite blatant as to what the problem is: Graal isn't good. More servers - even a single, fantastic one - will just be the equivalent of sweeping the dust under the rug. It's not going to fix anything, just very briefly make it look less obvious. This has happened so many times before, and done nothing to improve Graal as a whole - because it's beyond improving. And why should it even be improved? Where is the motivation to create a wonderful server? Then what? You manage it, you update it. All for nothing. Until a few staff members drop out, get replaced with less enthusiastic and talented ones, oblivious to the original sight. And then the server becomes Endora. It becomes Delteria. It becomes N-Pulse or Shaded Legend. It becomes any one of the countless servers who owe their unexistence to your very line of thinking.

This isn't wishful thinking or being optimistic. I'm saying every server on Graal is ****. You won't fix them. You won't make them better in some fashion. Graal has always been one new server after the next, and now it's just stale.

We won't solve the larger problems at hand. That's entirely up to the administration at this point. We've asked them for years for support and they don't give it, so what can developers do? At least a new server would be SOMETHING to do.

Originally Posted by kia345

Look at the iPhone servers. Look at their popularity. It's not a matter of a good server. They excel because of their accessibility. PC Graal being successful and polished and playable is water from a stone by this point. iGraal has found a way to just sell the stones. PC Graal's problem is nothing related to the content. The content is what you'd expect from diligent (yet unpaid) developers. PC Graal's problem is the nonchalant administration who don't give a **** about working with the people actually responsible for their paying customers.

iGraal is popular because it's new - the accessibility is new. What has PC Graal had that is new recently of any worth? Maloria? Classic? Big ****ing deal.

Originally Posted by kia345

So instead of wasting your time and everyone's effort on a new server doomed to fail, why don't you contribute to what already exists and is known to keep players around? A fascinating new server isn't what dragged me back, with high hopes and determination for a fun game. The prospect of sitting in some level slightly younger than I am and chatting with a few friends did.

Maybe using Graal as a chat room is cool for you, but I want something more.

[kia345]

Since your plan here is to ignore everything that addresses why you're wrong, I'll just do the opposite and respond to you piece-by-piece.

Originally Posted by Hiro

Oh please.

I was exaggerating, truthfully. There's actually harsher words for you that would be more appropriate.

This isn't wishful thinking or being optimistic.

It's a pipedream, but a poorly considered one.

I'm saying every server on Graal is ****.

Every server on Graal is fine, it's Graal that's any number of asterisk you wish to line up.

You thinking that Unholy Nation or Zodiac or whatever isn't up to par is an extreme example of setting the bar far too high. This medium is lower than many F2P MMOs and low-key indie games. You cannot seriously expect anything great from it. Every server is top notch for what they are.

You won't fix them. You won't make them better in some fashion.

The only true fixing to be done is that done to people like you, not the servers. You're treating Graal like something it's not, and will never be. This is the height of it. If you have a problem with the current servers, the issue is you. The issue is a personal one. The issue has nothing to do with quality, is has to do with you not getting what you want.

Graal has always been one new server after the next

No it hasn't, it's been the same lineup for years, and a very rare occurrence like Zodiac or Era coming out on top. These niches are filled, and the small community is strung very then between a few unique servers. Sure, "new servers" come up all the time. And they're always afterthoughts, they're always temporary, they're always not saving Graal. There's nothing to save. Stop suggesting that breaking up the tranquility because you're not the top dog on whatever server you play will somehow improve everything.

We won't solve the larger problems at hand.

There's zero problems to be solved. You're not a brilliant rebel leader trying to rally Graal together for the greater good. The ones with the bright ideas are people like Thor or fp4, just trying to make their server work.

so what can developers do?

HINT: It's not this:

At least a new server would be SOMETHING to do.

We've had new servers. There's always new servers. Graal's only true constant is that some idiot will always spring forth with a new server, clearly believing that it is exactly what Graal needs, only to realize that ****, these new servers aren't actually helping anything, and then they post a goodbye thread.

It's actually developing for the existent and somewhat lacking servers. That's a cause that will actually have a positive effect.

iGraal is popular because it's new - the accessibility is new.

This doesn't actually make sense.

What has PC Graal had that is new recently of any worth? Maloria? Classic? Big ****ing deal.

I don't understand how your reasoning is NEW THING = THE BEST THINGS. You're given new things, you're given in-name-only revivals. Why are those not satisfying to you? (I know why - it's because they're not the product of your suggestion. You're not actually delivering a thought out attempt to improve Graal, because what you suggest happens on a regular basis and quite obviously does nothing beneficial. But you will willingly ignore this 100% rate of failure that proves your futility, because the difference here is that is wasn't your idea.)

Like, I want to delve into this point deeper, but your train of thought is literally so shallow and... almost in reverse, that I don't think it's actually possible to reason with you any more complexly than just with a blunt, "no, you're wrong, this is why". But it's clear that you can't even comprehend that point, so I'll just let you continue on your merry way. Your ideal for "fixing" Graal is bad. It's baseless, it's shallow, it's happened a million times to no avail. I've cited multiple servers that were your exact plan, these "dream team" run servers that were meant to pump life into Graal, and they've only fallen into obscurity. You yourself have referenced servers that were meant to be the "next big things", only to fail.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by kia345

The only true fixing to be done is that done to people like you, not the servers. You're treating Graal like something it's not, and will never be. This is the height of it. If you have a problem with the current servers, the issue is you. The issue is a personal one. The issue has nothing to do with quality, is has to do with you not getting what you want.

I 10000% agree with this.

[kia345]

If you agree with it so much, you should've fixed my typo so I wouldn't look bad!

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by kia345

Since your plan here is to ignore everything that addresses why you're wrong, I'll just do the opposite and respond to you piece-by-piece.

Oh yes, please do. Please show me my ignorance teacher.

Originally Posted by kia345

I was exaggerating, truthfully. There's actually harsher words for you that would be more appropriate.

Honestly you've provided more than enough personal insult to warrant a warning by our wonderful mods. Wonder if that'll actually happen since it definitely would if I posted which such pathetic delusion of grandeur. (Y'know, aside from my usual swag)

Originally Posted by kia345

Every server on Graal is fine, it's Graal that's any number of asterisk you wish to line up.

Hah.

Originally Posted by kia345

You thinking that Unholy Nation or Zodiac or whatever isn't up to par is an extreme example of setting the bar far too high. This medium is lower than many F2P MMOs and low-key indie games. You cannot seriously expect anything great from it. Every server is top notch for what they are.

Hahahaha. Oh wow.

Originally Posted by kia345

The only true fixing to be done is that done to people like you, not the servers. You're treating Graal like something it's not, and will never be. This is the height of it. If you have a problem with the current servers, the issue is you. The issue is a personal one. The issue has nothing to do with quality, is has to do with you not getting what you want.

You're right - I treat it like a video game. For whatever percentage of the population like myself who play the game rather than create for it, it's not a development platform.

As for what I want, it's clear you don't understand it because you're a scrub who was never up to the challenge. As someone who wants Graal to be a chatroom, you have different priorities. If all you want is to chat, I'm sure the current servers seem just fine to you.

Originally Posted by kia345

There's zero problems to be solved. You're not a brilliant rebel leader trying to rally Graal together for the greater good. The ones with the bright ideas are people like Thor or fp4, just trying to make their server work.

Heaven forbid that those with the talent work together on one thing. To even have a thread to discuss the possibility of such a thing ever happening...that'd just be silly and attract some really pathetic losers to start arguing. Whoever comes up with something like that must have some ego, man.

Originally Posted by kia345

We've had new servers. There's always new servers. Graal's only true constant is that some idiot will always spring forth with a new server, clearly believing that it is exactly what Graal needs, only to realize that ****, these new servers aren't actually helping anything, and then they post a goodbye thread.

It's actually developing for the existent and somewhat lacking servers. That's a cause that will actually have a positive effect.

So we can never have another Era? We can never have another Zodiac?

As an extremely stupid suggestion, just for you, if the existing servers are such a priority, then why not have more cross-server staff? Pool those brilliant people together and have the improve together.

Oh but they won't work together right? Time to just let them work alone and wait on the administration to help them instead. That'll totally work, we've seen it work before.

Originally Posted by kia345

This doesn't actually make sense.

At this point in my response, it doesn't matter if you do.

Originally Posted by kia345

I don't understand how your reasoning is NEW THING = THE BEST THINGS. You're given new things, you're given in-name-only revivals. Why are those not satisfying to you? (I know why - it's because they're not the product of your suggestion. You're not actually delivering a thought out attempt to improve Graal, because what you suggest happens on a regular basis and quite obviously does nothing beneficial. But you will willingly ignore this 100% rate of failure that proves your futility, because the difference here is that is wasn't your idea.)

If I was really going to argue that it should be all my idea, then I would have posted some outline of what I think they should make.

Originally Posted by kia345

Like, I want to delve into this point deeper, but your train of thought is literally so shallow and... almost in reverse, that I don't think it's actually possible to reason with you any more complexly than just with a blunt, "no, you're wrong, this is why". But it's clear that you can't even comprehend that point, so I'll just let you continue on your merry way. Your ideal for "fixing" Graal is bad. It's baseless, it's shallow, it's happened a million times to no avail. I've cited multiple servers that were your exact plan, these "dream team" run servers that were meant to pump life into Graal, and they've only fallen into obscurity. You yourself have referenced servers that were meant to be the "next big things", only to fail.

Like, I want to be mean to you, but I know Darlene will moderate me to being banned again, and instead of just going along with the topic of the thread you just argue these straw-mans.

How about you stop focusing on your bias towards me and genuinely answer?

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Hiro

How about you stop focusing on your bias towards me and genuinely answer?

Okay, go back to page one and read essentially every response you've gotten, included mine that you've blatantly ignored in favor of "but im rite".

[PhantosP2P]

I'm still willing to bet Valikorlia would take any of you starry-eyed developers.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by kia345

Okay, go back to page one and read essentially every response you've gotten, included mine that you've blatantly ignored in favor of "but im rite".

So you had nothing to say?

You make such good posts I can see why your rep is so high.

[fowlplay4]

lol no kia345 u r

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

ftfy

[StormYs]

Originally Posted by TheGodAngelo

i just like to create, don't hate me

No hate intended, don't worry xD

Hiro your not wrong for wanting more people to enjoy graal. The thing is to make something new will require time, effort and money which you are fully aware of. This has been tried a lot in the past only to end up failing because of the three points that I mentioned. Even if the server did make it into the classic tab the dedication to hold the server up and running wouldn't be there anymore because of the huge amount of work to just get it into classic was already to much. The thing that I want to say is that the higher management should remove these barriers for the dev's, by as said before adding new dev tools or lowering the price of the subs to make a server. The higher management would most likely also benefit from this, but they are incompetent.

I am a player not a dev or whatever, I just want to play and enjoy the game (even though I rarely log in). I think that instead of focusing on creating something new it would be better to update the servers we have atm until the higher management actually do things for the devs to make it easier for them. Instead of making efforts for a new server it would be better to make effort for the consisting servers, as a player I would enjoy that more rather than waiting 1 or 2 years for a new server.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

I'm still willing to bet Valikorlia would take any of you starry-eyed developers.

Been there, done that. Ended up with management who had no idea what they wanted to do with the server and then had to sit there twiddling my thumbs with the rest of the staff since they preferred waiting for a dev server before doing any kind of worthwhile work.

[gravator]

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

Of course. You're preaching to the choir on that one. Not a single person frequenting this forum would ever suggest that PC Graal is worth the money, except maybe Unixmad.

But why is it up the community to make it worth money, and not say... the people taking in all of the profit?

I'll cut to the chase: it isn't worth it for any player to clean this mess up, not until we've been given better tools, clearer communication, or just a slice of the pie we're selling.

This seems to be a common request from the developers, the desire for a new or better tool, would a person need to find an alternate method for making an idea work or does it always come down to needing a new tool entirely before work can continue only to come to a stop later still because you keep requiring new and better tools for a single project?


Perhaps it's someone starting work on a server, and suddenly wanting to remake all of the original work that may have been done up to a point when a new tool becomes available because it has the potential to be much better than continuing with the older tools and content that has already been developed.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by PhantosP2P

I'm still willing to bet Valikorlia would take any of you starry-eyed developers.

As much potential I can see in Valikorlia, I wouldn't want to work there.

[PhantosP2P]

Originally Posted by gravator

This seems to be a common request from the developers, the desire for a new or better tool, would a person need to find an alternate method for making an idea work or does it always come down to needing a new tool entirely before work can continue only to come to a stop later still because you keep requiring new and better tools for a single project?


Perhaps it's someone starting work on a server, and suddenly wanting to remake all of the original work that may have been done up to a point when a new tool becomes available because it has the potential to be much better than continuing with the older tools and content that has already been developed.

The only thing that would cause a developer to need to restart their work from scratch, in regards to introducing new "tools", is if there were a new version of Graal Script that made all of their work obsolete.

How about a level maker that works offline with .png tilesets? Or just a level maker that was made in this century? It's bones-old and horrible. There are work-arounds for this, but it introduces a barrier of entry for new developers. Explaining how to LAT at the last Val Con was kind of a joke in that regard. "Take your nice .PNG and save it as a .GIF so that the level maker can be previewed offline."

As for those of you who'd rather not work on Valikorlia, I think it's a pretty good indication of why I don't think this thread's point is very feasible. People don't like working together, and that statement itself is quickly denied by most; yet when you dig into what "working together" means (the sacrifices, the hard work, the mere socializing), developers have limited patience.