Preview: Tomb Quest Preparation

[ffcmike]

Not much entirely new or expected to wow people but here's a preview video showing a few things that have been prepared for the next upcoming Quest:



As usual it should be noted that this is just a test level and not something that should be expected as a final product.
Bat Form is only intended for display and not something that will be possible to obtain as of yet.

[xnervNATx]

Look nice. Keep up the good work.

[fowlplay4]

Are your scripts accessible/configurable enough for LATs to create their own quests or do you have to do custom work for each quest?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Are your scripts accessible/configurable enough for LATs to create their own quests or do you have to do custom work for each quest?

With the common resources yes they are fairly simple to add and customise as most of the work is being done within a class, it's only the things such as setting this.variables plus how one resource may interact with a different resource in the same level that requires some thought + basic scripting knowledge.

[Vinka]

Very creative Thor well done.

[JesusFreak250]

looking good!

[Pimmeh]

The final sound before the bat transformation sounds like a Photon Cannon from Starcraft 1 firing. Is this freely available material or could you get in trouble with that?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Pimmeh

The final sound before the bat transformation sounds like a Photon Cannon from Starcraft 1 firing. Is this freely available material or could you get in trouble with that?

While I cannot categorically state this was a public domain sound as a fact, it is something I was led to believe on the website I found it on in 2008 (cannot remember which or what its original filename was after all this time).

I've tried searching for a video showing the photon cannon for comparison, I can't seem to find one for Starcraft 1, though having seen one for Starcraft 2 that one seemed to be very slightly similar but definitely not the same.

[maximus_asinus]

I love what you're doing with Classic. This is a great foundation for quests providing these custom features are not terribly difficult to implement on a large scale. You're definitely bringing a Zelda feel not truly present before into the server. I just hope that you bring some creativity to the future quests (I was only ever able to play that ninja quest and that wasn't too great).

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I was only ever able to play that ninja quest and that wasn't too great.

If you're referring to the ninja trial this was only intended to be simple and tutorial-esque as it was an early stage of the game.
It's always been the intention to gradually notch up the complexity.

[smirt362]

Neat as always, can't wait to work through the new quest.

[Sp_lit]

Originally Posted by smirt362

Neat as always, can't wait to work through the new quest.

Agreed!

I think this looks promising, will be interesting to see the final product

[ffcmike]

Wonder who this is .

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

If you're referring to the ninja trial this was only intended to be simple and tutorial-esque as it was an early stage of the game.
It's always been the intention to gradually notch up the complexity.

I played through the Zol's toilet quest today (while you spied on me). I felt the quest had real potential but...

• I felt you didn't fully explore the water system idea, there is so much more you could have done other than filling/draining to create paths.
• I also felt that everything was really cramped and that a lot of the linearity that is present in dungeons in Zelda was not captured in this quest and made finding what I had to do next very confusing. In Zelda you would enter a dungeon, you would have one or two exits to the room (excluding the door you came from). The level would be designed to push you towards these doors. Then by looking at your map after traveling a few rooms you would notice the game pushes you into one general direction -- towards your goal. Your quest reminded me of swiss cheese and I would have hated to play it if it was larger (and still without organization).
• I was confused as hell for the boss in the first minutes. I was running around the room because I thought I was supposed to catch up and get behind him but he kept turning after I got so close. This was very annoying because your objective is to either tire the boss out or make him dizzy but by running the room as I did he did not do either and he kept resetting after changing direction. After I realized that I had to go slower (and that was a fluke realization) I was able to defeat him.
• Again, I was not sure if I was tiring the rat out or making him dizzy. Maybe add a status icon above his head to clarify (anime styled water drop or spinning stars is an idea).
• Apparently there is a save point outside of the toilet but I managed to skip past it while doing the quest and only found out about its existence because you PMed me afterwards.

Oh and Bell I do say nice things sometimes, no need to act so shocked!

[ffcmike]

I'm somewhat surprised with your feeling about linearity, as when you factor in certain levels only being accessible once the water is lowered, it is straight forward from the start, with the exception of one right turn you can take if you kill all of the rats for the key where that door is. This level is then also not possible to progress through without the big key.
Once the water level is lowered it's then a matter of re-visiting the same levels you already passed through, with it then being possible to enter an entirely new set of lower levels at the same place you began.
It shouldn't really be a matter of figuring out what path to take, but how they combine to enable you to obtain the big key.

I'm wondering if you noticed the book in the level before the rat boss?
There will always be some trial and error involved in defeating the boss but I think this book should atleast in-still the idea that you need to tire it out.

Maybe I should have elaborated some more on save points, they can actually be set within any bed rather than being something you find within specific places.

[maximus_asinus]

I think you might be relying too heavily on players reading. I found the book but once I realized it wasn't rat form I skipped through all the pages without reading.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think you might be relying too heavily on players reading. I found the book but once I realized it wasn't rat form I skipped through all the pages without reading.

I wouldn't say that reading the book is crucial to defeating it, but it would make better sense of it.

[BigBear3]

Thor. I love you

[maximus_asinus]

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

hm

[DustyPorViva]

Nice use of moving platforms + pulling switch.

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

Actually most of the 2D Zelda games did not do this. However, Link's Awakening would usually leave a tile in the room that indicated a key was going to fall there, as well as the compass played a noise whenever you could obtain a key in the room when you entered it.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think the most confusing part to me was there being rooms where I had to kill all the baddies for a key. In Zelda they basically told you to kill the baddies because they'd lock you in a room with a few baddies inside and it would just click "I should kill these guys". Classic does not do this, and with there being rooms with baddies and no keys a player cannot discern whether or not they should be killing baddies at all, and they shouldn't have to kill all the baddies in every room they walk into just to find out.

I did actually consider having to kill all rats in some of the levels mandatory.
Potential problems then however would be that the quest could become too much harder + more annoying with them respawning but possibly too much easier without them respawning, I think it works fine provided there is some indication that a key can be obtained:


(plus maybe the fact there is a locked door contained in that level)

[Luda]

Originally Posted by xnervNATx

hm

Is this from your walktrout?

[DustyPorViva]

My opinion on linear dungeons is that you should have a direction for the player, but give them the illusion they are making choices. If you make dungeons too open-ended then it simply confuses the player and that can lead to frustration. But if you make it too obviously linear then that makes the player feel bored because they feel controlled. However, laying out a clear path and direction, yet masking it with a few open rooms and choices can give the player the impression they are choosing their path while you're still defining the direction they go. Also, backtracking is also a very important part here. If the player is always going forward then it's quite clear that they're being guided. But if they have to backtrack between areas they've been then they lose focus on the fact that there is a clear path and focus more on trying to remember the layout.

All in all, you can see this kind of thing all over Zelda dungeons. You enter a dungeon, and you are given a few paths. You can take either path, but eventually you will end up going back to the main room because one end results in a treasure of sorts. Either a map, compass or a key. They you have to backtrack and go the other way. This leads the player deeper into the dungeon. Eventually the player may even go around in a circle, cleverly linking the layout in some way. This is always a good feeling, to feel like the dungeon isn't just one direction. Throw in a few secret rooms to pull the player away from the main path(bombable walls, or paths that simply lead to minor prizes... or even paths that aren't accessible until the player comes back with a new weapon, this is ALWAYS great). All in all, it ends up being an experience that clearly has one way to tackle it(you will always get the exact number of keys that need to be used exactly as intended) but lets the player feel like they're in control.

[DustyPorViva]

Alright, a little example of my post above(sorry for the double post).

Here I took the first(sort of) dungeon in Link to the Past and I drew out the path an inexperienced player may take their first time through the dungeon. This doesn't account for being lost, or not remembering the way. It simply accounts for the player exploring the various paths that can be taken since they don't know the way. Oh ya, it's also only the first floor of the dungeon.

As you can see, even though the dungeon actually has one actual path to complete the dungeon, the path the player take constantly intertwines and revisits areas. They keep seeing the same rooms, even if not in the same way(such as walking under the floor they were just on). The player never feels like they're going in a straight line, even though in the end they did exactly as the developers wanted.

Sorry for the large file.

? = the player has reached a dead end, but may still be rewarded
:o = the player has noticed something that has intrigued them and tries to remember it
! = player was rewarded with something important

[ffcmike]

This may not be as clear as Dusty's example but I think it's on similar lines to what he's describing:

[Kamaeru]

Thanks Dusty.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Actually most of the 2D Zelda games did not do this. However, Link's Awakening would usually leave a tile in the room that indicated a key was going to fall there, as well as the compass played a noise whenever you could obtain a key in the room when you entered it.

It certainly does do this, maybe I didn't explain it quite clearly but what I was trying to explain is done repeatedly in LttP. First example I can think of on the top of my head is in the castle in the beginning. You pass into a room with a blue guard inside and the door locks behind you. I think you get the boomerang and after killing the guard you get a key.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I did actually consider having to kill all rats in some of the levels mandatory.
Potential problems then however would be that the quest could become too much harder + more annoying with them respawning but possibly too much easier without them respawning, I think it works fine provided there is some indication that a key can be obtained:


(plus maybe the fact there is a locked door contained in that level)

Again I think you rely too much on reading. I passed by a few NPCs like that one dead guy and got into a habit of just skipping through the text. But my biggest complaint about this very room is that there is a locked door and when I entered this room I already had a key so I didn't expect to have to find another key in that same room. Would have made sense to put the key in an off to the side room.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

All in all, you can see this kind of thing all over Zelda dungeons. You enter a dungeon, and you are given a few paths. You can take either path, but eventually you will end up going back to the main room because one end results in a treasure of sorts. Either a map, compass or a key. They you have to backtrack and go the other way. This leads the player deeper into the dungeon. Eventually the player may even go around in a circle, cleverly linking the layout in some way. This is always a good feeling, to feel like the dungeon isn't just one direction. Throw in a few secret rooms to pull the player away from the main path(bombable walls, or paths that simply lead to minor prizes... or even paths that aren't accessible until the player comes back with a new weapon, this is ALWAYS great). All in all, it ends up being an experience that clearly has one way to tackle it(you will always get the exact number of keys that need to be used exactly as intended) but lets the player feel like they're in control.

This is what I meant earlier, Dusty did a better job at explaining.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

It certainly does do this, maybe I didn't explain it quite clearly but what I was trying to explain is done repeatedly in LttP. First example I can think of on the top of my head is in the castle in the beginning. You pass into a room with a blue guard inside and the door locks behind you. I think you get the boomerang and after killing the guard you get a key.

Yes, it does do this, but not all the time. Just because a few instances does it does not mean that it always applies. For example in the sewers just after that the only way to get a key is to kill a single rat in a large room with about 10 rats and 5 bats. It never indicates there is a key, it doesn't shut you in, the room is dark, and there are I think 2 open doors and a locked door. I can't think of an exact instance where you have to kill all the enemies to get a key without the doors locking, but I'm sure there are a few instances(sadly I don't have the entire Zelda franchise memorized, only most of it.

[Kiwi27]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Wonder who this is .

http://www.onrpg.com/boards/63561.html
Googled it and found that.

Quest looks cool, Thor

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Kiwi27

http://www.onrpg.com/boards/63561.html
Googled it and found that.

Fairyland Europe will close November 1 2007.

Game servers will be free to play from August 30 => November 1.

Have fun.
Unixmad

:o

By the way it's just the boss left for us to complete aswell as adding in what happens before and after the quest, so it shouldn't take a great deal of time longer.