If there were a global team...

[WhiteDragon]

What do you think the global team should be doing in terms of scripting?
There has been discussion of them doing systems or similar things that can benefit any server, but that's a bit vague.

I imagine this sort of stuff could be useful to whoever ends up doing it.

So, what do you think any server could easily use to help them get closer to a Classic-tab server without defining the server itself?

[Twinny]

What I always thought it could be good is having a team who releases GPackages. In essence, scripters can write their scripts and release them as GPackages. Playerworld Owners or high members of staff can then use a GPackage viewer to look at available GPackages and install what ones would work into their server. Developers could choose to either have it open or closed source so helpful people will keep it opensource and the GPackages would simply write the scripts into viewable space while closed source packages can be added into a hidden space (GServer/NPC-Server has enough of them).

Think of it as your average package manager for Linux. You install a package and it provides core functionality. You install a Guns package and you gain alot of predefined gun functions/variables with default/example settings. This could save alot of time for Startup playerworlds as they can implement the gun system without worrying about developing and troubleshooting a gun system and instead can focus on the other aspects.

This kind of system would also allow developers to make updates to their code using a versioning system so PWs can be informed when newer packages are available.

For the developers, this gives a interesting way to improve graal in a way that gives them global credit. Their name is shiny on their released package and it also teachs about documenting your code as well as providing security updates and backwards compatibility for updates.

A global team could implement these packages as well as review and add/reject player made packages. The GPackages could then be expanded to other development streams to make like a, "Basic Town Levels".gpackage or "Basic Monster Sprites".gpackage available.

To sum it up, give developers and interesting and easy way to get their hard work out to the public AND to give playerworld owners an easy to way to start up and get going without having to fret about every nuance.

This really is a simplified view fo what is in my head and I've talked to Tig about it a few times. The idea came from Captain GScript (Skyld) adding the shared functions pack. If GPacks could provide cool packages like Pathfinding, Advanced Lighting, Particle Emitter Pack, Simple Baddy AI etc. this could go awesome

[Rufus]

Scripted defaults.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Twinny

post

This is a really good idea, but then comes the problem of playerworld owners not giving credit and also makes newer developers not have the need to learn how to script, create Ganis, or design graphics on their own. Besides, this is still here.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Switch

This is a really good idea, but then comes the problem of playerworld owners not giving credit and also makes newer developers not have the need to learn how to script, create Ganis, or design graphics on their own. Besides, this is still here.

Well, I think it comes down to the content on the server.

If someone wants to make a really generic server, then it doesn't matter if there are packages to help them or not. That server will go nowhere.
If someone wants to make a unique server, then they'll take the packages and do the work required to make it more interesting.

Also, most developers end up learning the stuff because they find it interesting, not because they have to.

It's a good point, but I think a package system like that will end up benefiting a lot more people than it will thin the development pool.

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Switch

This is a really good idea, but then comes the problem of playerworld owners not giving credit and also makes newer developers not have the need to learn how to script, create Ganis, or design graphics on their own. Besides, this is still here.

Perhaps including a GPackage will add an entry in the Player world about menu (which could be added to the playerworld button in the taskbar?) plus developers could add an echo("Gun System V1.2.3 scripted by Gooby"); or even make a quick splash screen show for 3 seconds on login. Possibilities are there and an accepted method should be chosen from the get go.

As for learning, the possibly implemented GDT should get this going in their documentation aspects. The wiki needs to be made noob friendly (like I tried with my website....some day....) and provide a good avenue for learning. Also, packages can be open or closed source.

Of course, the gpackages could be considered a way of implementing a system quickly while the developers make their own system in the background. A placeholder in essence.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Twinny

Perhaps including a GPackage will add an entry in the Player world about menu (which could be added to the playerworld button in the taskbar?) plus developers could add an echo("Gun System V1.2.3 scripted by Gooby"); or even make a quick splash screen show for 3 seconds on login. Possibilities are there and an accepted method should be chosen from the get go.

As for learning, the possibly implemented GDT should get this going in their documentation aspects. The wiki needs to be made noob friendly (like I tried with my website....some day....) and provide a good avenue for learning. Also, packages can be open or closed source.

Of course, the gpackages could be considered a way of implementing a system quickly while the developers make their own system in the background. A placeholder in essence.

People could take those echo() or splash screens out.

If that's the case, then they should be very simple systems and no more.

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Switch

People could take those echo() or splash screens out.

If that's the case, then they should be very simple systems and no more.

Okay first off, they couldn't if it was closed source. If you cared about having your name in neon lights (think anyone who releases to the code gallery, yeah?) you would keep it closed source (just in case you missed it, closed source gpackages would install to a hidden part of the NPC-Server).

This is an easier avenue for releasing stuff then the code gallery AND it gives you the changes to keep your Intellectual Property. People can release whatever they want and however complex it may be (as long as it passes review)

Anyone who releases their code to the code gallery understands ******s will rewrite the script to say they made it all by themselves and this is an accepted fact. What changes in that aspect?

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Twinny

Okay first off, they couldn't if it was closed source. If you cared about having your name in neon lights (think anyone who releases to the code gallery, yeah?) you would keep it closed source (just in case you missed it, closed source gpackages would install to a hidden part of the NPC-Server).

This is an easier avenue for releasing stuff then the code gallery AND it gives you the changes to keep your Intellectual Property. People can release whatever they want and however complex it may be (as long as it passes review)

Anyone who releases their code to the code gallery understands ******s will rewrite the script to say they made it all by themselves and this is an accepted fact. What changes in that aspect?

I meant that they could give no credit to the original developer and say they scripted it, which I hate tremendously.
And I skipped that whole section.

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Switch

I meant that they could give no credit to the original developer and say they scripted it, which I hate tremendously.
And I skipped that whole section.

Which is why you shouldn't be replying to my post. You also skipped the question asking how this differs from the current Code Gallery system? Your point is already an existing issue and I provided a possible solution with my idea. Please read my entire post as there may be a few other things you missed...

[WhiteDragon]

Well, let's try to keep it more ideas and less debating.

I imagine that the ideas would be prioritized based on how big the team is, and then specific implementation ideas would be discussed on the higher-priority ideas.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Twinny

Which is why you shouldn't be replying to my post. You also skipped the question asking how this differs from the current Code Gallery system? Your point is already an existing issue and I provided a possible solution with my idea. Please read my entire post as there may be a few other things you missed...

Nothing changes from the Code Gallery and changing the script, that I agreed on and felt no need to reply to it.
And the only other thing I missed was that "versioning" bit.

[Mark Sir Link]

Something I thought would be useful would be replicating the default UI using the GuiControls, and allowing more customization as a result, such as being able to move where things are positioned, change fonts, bar textures for AP/magic.

I started making it and that's why I began creating anchors, to make it easy for players to put something in say a corner, and leave it there.

Playing other MMORPGs where you have a high level of customization makes it annoying when I go play something like Graal and see my health is way to the top left of my screen when I'm focused on the middle where my character is.

In addition to that, making scripted clones of movement and hit detection would be nice. I can't see what else you can really get into making without it becoming too server specific besides maybe some sort of generic events UI for games like Capture the Flag and stuff. On Era, it's annoying to not be able to see the score.

[Inverness]

We don't need any closed source scripts, that doesn't help anyone get better at anything.

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Inverness

We don't need any closed source scripts, that doesn't help anyone get better at anything.

It doesn't really but unfortunately there alot of egotistical scripters out there who won't share their, "gold" and certainly won't stand for the chance that their work will be rebranded. The developer could also want absolute consistency. So long as you document every single function/variable well (last time, i went so far to have every function return return help for the instruction if you sent it "help") then it shouldn't be a major problem.

Some people don't like sharing

[Bell]

I don't see where something like this couldn't be designed and implemented through the GDT. Skyld could get the testing and approvals done then uploaded once all the bugs/details were worked out. Its this sort of combined thoughts/discussion and implementation that will improve the quality of Graal.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Twinny

It doesn't really but unfortunately there alot of egotistical scripters out there who won't share their, "gold" and certainly won't stand for the chance that their work will be rebranded. The developer could also want absolute consistency. So long as you document every single function/variable well (last time, i went so far to have every function return return help for the instruction if you sent it "help") then it shouldn't be a major problem.

Some people don't like sharing

Well depending on the GPackage (Mainly ones that have Client side functionality), you may not want other coders, cheaters, snooping around for possible exploits.

If not GPackages, then there should be some sort of default server kit, that includes some examples and so on to help a server get on its feet.

I.e:

- Basic Item System Kits
- Custom Server Kits

[Bell]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Well depending on the GPackage (Mainly ones that have Client side functionality), you may not want other coders, cheaters, snooping around for possible exploits.

If not GPackages, then there should be some sort of default server kit, that includes some examples and so on to help a server get on its feet.

I.e:

- Basic Item System Kits
- Custom Server Kits

I completely agree, I feel new developers have to spend far too much time just trying to get off the ground. If they had a basic script package to choose from they could then customize or make additions that suit their individual needs.

[Loriel]

Why the hell did you instantly derail this thread from "what kind of stuff would be useful" to "how can we make stuff less useful to protect our precious intellectual property"

[fowlplay4]

So it's settled.. Global Development Team, will make the Basic Server Kits.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Loriel

Why the hell did you instantly derail this thread from "what kind of stuff would be useful" to "how can we make stuff less useful to protect our precious intellectual property"

huh? Did I have a blond moment here? What you talking about.

[Pelikano]

GS2 is sooooo easy compared to other languages, the only problem is there's no good documentation for it.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Loriel

Why the hell did you instantly derail this thread from "what kind of stuff would be useful" to "how can we make stuff less useful to protect our precious intellectual property"

I was getting the same feeling.

Originally Posted by Bell

huh? Did I have a blond moment here? What you talking about.

He's just pointing out how I originally asked what servers would find useful, but the thread got derailed into how to distribute them in a "less useful" manner, in Loriel's opinion. I suppose that's because he's an open-source advocate, but then again so am I.

Not to say that it isn't good food for thought though.

Originally Posted by Pelikano

GS2 is sooooo easy compared to other languages, the only problem is there's no good documentation for it.

I think one of the only things Stefan actually requested for the team to do was to update the documentation regularly, and yes, I agree with you.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Bell

huh? Did I have a blond moment here? What you talking about.

Aaaah, sorry, that was not directed at you but the thread in general.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

[...] "less useful" manner, in Loriel's opinion.

Your original problem statement was "what scripts and content and whatever can we offer to kickstart server development, that people can build their playerworld upon, etc". That is a pretty interesting topic and you would think that after almost ten years of having playerworlds, we would have a whole bunch of primitives to combine and build upon. Or at least know what to look for.

If someone's silly little "scripty made by ___" disclaimer (which, in my opinion, should not be visible to players anyway) needs to be protected not only by PWA mandate, but in a manner that prevents scripters from adapting stuff to work on their server, from repairing it when it breaks when other things change and from extending it to integrate their own features, someone has a pretty messed-up idea of priorities in development.

I think one of the only things Stefan actually requested for the team to do was to update the documentation regularly, and yes, I agree with you.

This is fatally necessary, in a more bottoms-up manner than just documenting random funny features.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

GS2 is sooooo easy compared to other languages, the only problem is there's no good documentation for it.

Even ignoring the huge contradiction between these two claims, GS2 is not particularly easy compared to languages in a similar niche like javascript or lua. I would say it is significantly harder than most programming languages out there just by virtue of depending on a huge amount of game engine details that are not documented nor intuitive at all, instead of being neat and compact.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Loriel

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For the record, I was agreeing with you that the scripts shouldn't be closed off; just trying to speak from a neutral viewpoint.