Default Movement + HD

[ffcmike]

The use of default systems on Classic is something that has often been requested.
The truth is that it quite simply cannot be put straight into use, the majority of custom systems, content and event levels are not compatible with it, it would probably take several months of continued re-working in order to reach the point the server is currently at assuming that was the direction.

But it is ultimately something that may be best for the server in the long run,
there is a large shame that it would put the work of alot of people myself included post npcserver to waste, and that some features might not be able to get replicated, otherwise it would provide an easier Development platform as there wouldn't be the issue of new Developers not being used to the custom systems, on top of the systems being what most Graal players are used to, it could also be argued that this should have been done in the first place.

But having said that there are no concrete plans to go ahead with it,
the current focus is very much on short term additions to the current server.
However it is something that is being explored,
thankfully Storm renewed his Dev Polo server subscription and has allowed me to put default aswell as a few basic custom systems in place, and also a patch of Graal City from the Old overworld (the real thing wouldn't necessarily have to be the Old Overworld) inwhich to test within, the server is also Classic Subscription enabled so there's no observer mode issue for any non Gold player who tries it out.

I am curious as to how many people would be in favour of this, and if this is the case for the majority what exactly should be remade to work with it and what should be discarded, for instance Events are arguably a must, whereas remaking the current Quests wouldn't be so important.

[Crono]

I find it funny that after all my nagging about the HD no one really believed me until the servers were finally transferred to Europe a few years later. By this time quests and other stuff had already been done to go with the custom movement system and Classic is now stuck with it.

To all of you including Master Storm who completely disregarded what I had to say about the HD when I first started actively playing Classic, LOL GLHF.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

I find it funny that after all my nagging about the HD no one really believed me until the servers were finally transferred to Europe a few years later. By this time quests and other stuff had already been done to go with the custom movement system and Classic is now stuck with it.

To all of you including Master Storm who completely disregarded what I had to say about the HD when I first started actively playing Classic, LOL GLHF.

The point i'm trying to raise here is whether Classic should stick with it,
and that even if it shouldn't we've got the option to work on Default content entirely seperately.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

The point i'm trying to raise here is whether Classic should stick with it,
and that even if it shouldn't we've got the option to work on Default content entirely seperately.

The way I see it you guys can go ahead and spend another few years reversing what you've been working on for half a decade or you can stick with what you have, tweak it and see if you can improve it, then move on. If I were in your shoes I'd pick the latter.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

The way I see it you guys can go ahead and spend another few years reversing what you've been working on for half a decade or you can stick with what you have, tweak it and see if you can improve it, then move on. If I were in your shoes I'd pick the latter.

Well as I said there are no concrete plans to go ahead with this, it's currently just an idea with a couple of days work done towards it in order to make it more presentable, but we wouldn't necessarily have to reverse absolutely everything,
some people prefer having a small but content filled overworld rather than a large and empty one, we wouldn't have to remake all of the current content and if we were to try and salvage old content (again anything is possible) that could possibly be done quicker for use with Default systems rather than custom.

[DarkCloud_PK]

This would be a gigantic 4 year step backwards, all for default HD, which people wouldn't come back for anyway. Using our resources to redo again what has been done and leave what we've been working on already is a complete waste.

Let us pick a final HD for classic, and continue progressing forwards, not take a step backwards.
Classic cannot afford that.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

This would be a gigantic 4 year step backwards, all for default HD, which people wouldn't come back for anyway. Using our resources to redo again what has been done and leave what we've been working on already is a complete waste.

Let us pick a final HD for classic, and continue progressing forwards, not take a step backwards.
Classic cannot afford that.

You're the dev admin.

[Oni]

Converting to Default HD, and working hard to convert everything to default is what the server needs. If it's gonna take long get to it now.

This will create closer relations between UN and Classic. Events and Sparing will be playable, and it'll be better for the future.

Do it before you add to much content, that you wont wanna go back.

This HD problem is gonna keep on comming.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

otherwise it would provide an easier Development platform as there wouldn't be the issue of new Developers not being used to the custom systems

This is obviously true in a miniscule sense. The problem at the moment, however, is using something that makes absolutely no sense logically to the point that you have to constantly look up how to do something because it's so unexpected and awkward. You don't need default systems for ease. You just need programmers who understand the concept that they're not the only ones that see and use their code. Massokre was not one of these people, and from what I've seen of DC's stuff, he isn't either. I'm not sure about you, but if it's the same, the server has no hope of ever being "easy to use" under any circumstances.

I'm sure everyone will keep doing things as usual. That is, throwing whatever they can at any script just to make it function, regardless of whether or not it's efficient, intelligent, or needed. This behavior just adds the same problem to the default systems as well, although, granted, to a lesser degree.

A better approach would be to talk to Stefan and find out exactly how the client to server communication works for the default hit detection. It's possible that it works in such a way that it could truly be replicated identically in a script. Of course, people would claim that it isn't identical just because they have the knowledge that it's scripted. You can't let that ignorance prevent things from being done.

[MysticX2X]

The HD is the biggest problem with Classic, and what detracts Sparrers away. It will be a good investment if time is taken to convert to this HD. The only concern I have is how this effects large scale events.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

The HD is the biggest problem with Classic, and what detracts Sparrers away. It will be a good investment if time is taken to convert to this HD. The only concern I have is how this effects large scale events.

There is a default HD sparring room and PK room in Exodus's.
Noone uses it, what does that say?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

This would be a gigantic 4 year step backwards, all for default HD, which people wouldn't come back for anyway. Using our resources to redo again what has been done and leave what we've been working on already is a complete waste.

Let us pick a final HD for classic, and continue progressing forwards, not take a step backwards.
Classic cannot afford that.

That's a fair opinion,
and opinions are all i am asking for, this is not a decision that has been made, and theoretically this is something that would only ever be done if the majority agreed was better than the server at current, and with the Dev Team continueing their work on current Classic on top of that.
I am only raising the question.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

There is a default HD sparring room and PK room in Exodus's.
Noone uses it, what does that say?

Sparring activity at Exos hasn't been the same for a long time, since before those rooms were added.

[DarkCloud_PK]

If the reason that people truly didnt play classic was that the HD wasn't default, those rooms would have gotten at least tried out. There is a reason why we dont have as many players as UN, and it isn't the HD.

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

There is a default HD sparring room and PK room in Exodus's.
Noone uses it, what does that say?

It says people don't want to be confined to a single room and want to have good hit detection when pking in any level.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Uh, sparring in UN consists of people sparring in the same towncenter sparring room.

[Polo]

I'll echo what Kat said, that it isn't necessarily a custom system that slows down developers, but the way in which that custom system is written. One of the things I've been doing over on the development server is to make a set of systems which are very easy to work with, both in terms of developing new features and deploying existing ones. Wrapping up commonly used or complex functionality in an easy to use system can actually improve development, making these feature easy to re-use and reducing the number of places at which a bug can occur. There is an ongoing effort to improve the current systems and make them much easier to work with.

The problem with the default systems is that you either have to take the whole thing or none of it at all. It can be awkward to build extra functionality on the top of this, whereas with a custom system you can change and tweak every minute detail. I have all the details needed to make a clone of the default systems. I'd much rather see a custom system that mimicked default than actually using default in it's raw form, purely because a custom system allows for more flexible development.

Just to reiterate again that this thread is absolutely no promise that a raw form of default will be introduced, and it would be unwise for players to draw false conclusions. I do not want to see anyone disappointed because they thought we were bringing default back, when instead we decide not to.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

If the reason that people truly didnt play classic was that the HD wasn't default, those rooms would have gotten at least tried out. There is a reason why we dont have as many players as UN, and it isn't the HD.

The Default rooms are far from a success but from what i've seen they have atleast been tried out, both by regulars and by visitors from other servers,
it's not a case of the rooms being ignored while the main spar arena flourishes.

I never said the HD was the solution to everything, but i do feel that using the systems that are common place across the whole of Graal aswell as documented would make it easier for Developers to work on the server rather than the current messy, inefficient and hardly documented systems, in order to tackle the other areas which require solutions,
you could say that it would be 4 steps backwards with a view to taking 8 steps forward, and if it didn't work the idea could always be abandoned without any loss to the server.

[Polo]

I'm locking this thread as I believe players will misinterpret some of the comments made and draw false conclusions. Although we understand and appreciate that many players have asked for the default systems to be reintroduced, particularly the built-in hit detection, I feel that this thread will give a false hope that these systems 'WILL' be introduced.

We will continue to work towards providing the best possible player experience we can on Classic, whatever systems we eventually end up using.