Too hard to develop servers?

[Darklux]

As my thread on the Main Forum was not released,
I wan't to open up a small discussion relating in development servers.

My impression as staff member on various places and long time player is,
that it's just too hard to develop a server nowadays.

Why?

- Graphics, Graphics, Graphics

It's hard to build a new server without a hell lot of graphics.
You need a tileset (of course you can use the official one, but it's just been used too much over the past years, you see it nearly everywhere you go),
graphics for furniture, weapons, or anything you can think of, while you can number the count of active graphics designers on graal with one hand, most of them are blocked with work on other servers.

So how to compete with servers like era, or other nicely styled up playerworlds? You always need a graphics artist and there aren't really any available.

- Lack of developers

Most players who develop are already bound in projects and rarely new, good developers are coming.
Why? The tools are as attractive as Windows 95 on a 486 Machine:
Outdated, Slow, Buggy.
Manpower instead is put in projects never released, like Graal 3d, Flying Technology, or odd platforms like the iPhone (okay it could attract outsiders, but I guess they will run away when they will hit the REAL graal, with the problems I am currently stating here)


So what would I say?

Invest time in a graphics and scripts database available for anyone, more different Tilesets to use, Graphics and so on, so that more players can build good playerworlds without a degree in computer science and/or design.
Invest more times in essential things for graal:
Level Editor and Gani Shop - Scripted or not! The last versions were published a decade ago, are buggy and unhandy.


I hope more people will agree - but graal is a development platform - and it nearly seems that Cyberjoueurs is trying to ruin this very aspect of it by not listenting to anybody and just working on nice daydreams like Graal 3d or iPhone Graal, while important aspects of the main game are in urge need of maintenance.

[Codein]

I completely agree. I'm working on a project where every bit of work will be opensource. I hope other players follow in suit.

[DustyPorViva]

I've tried open-source, the problem is for some idiotic reason, that players feel open-source stuff loses its value. I've heard many tell me that don't want to use my graphics from my free tiles thread because they're accessible to everyone, and they don't want to use stuff that's available to other servers... they want unique stuff. I have no problem with that, but it seems people like to make things harder for themselves because they always want to one-up the 'competition', or have some sort of higher standard. I'm completely pro open-source, I just wish more people were... because those who use open-source content may end up getting criticized for not making their own work and be held on a lower tier just because they didn't make it.

Anyways, there is a myriad of things that contribute to the difficulty of development. The major obstacle, I think, is the fact that this is just a game to 99[percent] of us and something we do during our free time, when developing a game(especially an online one) is a full-time job. We all have this sudden inspiration to do something big, and go to do it only to have a huge spur of initial development that slowly(or suddenly) dwindles down into inactivity. It sucks, because our only real encouragement to get our stuff done seems to be inspiration... without that we end up losing focus.

Oh, and the complete absence of external, offline development tools contributes handicaps to the actual labor of development. It's terrible that Stefan is basically telling us if we want it, we gotta make it ourselves. Oh well.

[Codein]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I've tried open-source, the problem is for some idiotic reason, that players feel open-source stuff loses its value. I've heard many tell me that don't want to use my graphics from my free tiles thread because they're accessible to everyone, and they don't want to use stuff that's available to other servers... they want unique stuff. I have no problem with that, but it seems people like to make things harder for themselves because they always want to one-up the 'competition', or have some sort of higher standard. I'm completely pro open-source, I just wish more people were... because those who use open-source content may end up getting criticized for not making their own work and be held on a lower tier just because they didn't make it.

Anyways, there is a myriad of things that contribute to the difficulty of development. The major obstacle, I think, is the fact that this is just a game to 99[percent] of us and something we do during our free time, when developing a game(especially an online one) is a full-time job. We all have this sudden inspiration to do something big, and go to do it only to have a huge spur of initial development that slowly(or suddenly) dwindles down into inactivity. It sucks, because our only real encouragement to get our stuff done seems to be inspiration... without that we end up losing focus.

Oh, and the complete absence of external, offline development tools contributes handicaps to the actual labor of development. It's terrible that Stefan is basically telling us if we want it, we gotta make it ourselves. Oh well.

I couldn't agree more. I mean, after all, the material that's released open-source is not uneditable. Infact, I'd strongly encourage my open-source material to be editted in some way before being used. Nothing wrong with that, to be honest.

In the end, people can't say we haven't tried.

[Clockwork]

Like 90% of my tileset is stuff I've been given, and I'm taking a hold of as much open source that would benefit my server as I can.

I see no reason why players should really mind, I bet loads of them wouldn't even know it was open source.... o_O

[Soala]

I can't say anything, that thread was 100% true.

[Inverness]

Inspiration is a necessity for me to script anything. I don't even take money.

Graal developers that don't wish to utilize open-source material are ignorant. For example, in the real world, not all development companies have the time and money to create their own engine so they license other engines such as Unreal and Gamebryo to shorten the development time and still have a great product.

[Horrified]

Making a server is not hard, if you stop thinking about matching the quality of the games out right now with 12000 quests and 200 different types of clothes and 123094203984 level map. If there's a ton of cool little servers, because everyone worked on there own smaller projects that only take a few months, the success of Graalonline would skyrocket.

A server is not hard to develop, but it is hard to create a server simply possible to develop in a reasonable time. Here is an ordinary idea for a server's workload:

1. At least 20-40 GFX needed and 1 totally unique tileset (Just the necessities)
2. Extremely difficult script designs, like really good AI for baddies and stuff that is just a complete pain in the ass.
3. GMaps with over 100 levels in them, all requiring complete attention to each one.
4. 10-15 GANIs (not really difficult, a 3 year old can GANI)

Stop trying to think impossible. When you're creating a server idea that you want eventually to come to life, don't think about custom bodies and "revolutionary gameplay." I'm not saying don't tweak the formula a lot, but be sure you have or you're sure you'll have the proper resources (developers) to handle it, otherwise think about what is already open-source and what your team's, and especially your capablities are.

There's only about a handful of rediculously great scripters on Graalonline, for example. I mean people that have taken college courses. One of them is, of course, Stefan. I'm sure you can pick out the others. These guys can tackle big things, but I'm 99 percent sure they're not interested in your project, and if they are it's not in a "well let me help develop" way.

Also, there's tons of variables that come into every new staff member you acquire. One of them, your great GAT, is going to start college in 2 weeks and doesn't have time for it anymore. But you're almost done! Too bad you'll never find a GAT of acceptable quality that he was to add to your team.

Think small ideas with great replay value. A 1000 GMap with a custom tileset sounds great, but you'll never get released; it'll take years. A 50 level GMap with some great gameplay in it with pics1 will take a few months at most, including the content that comes with it.

If you don't develop but want to make a server, I strongly suggest you practice in one of the two most important fields: Leveling w/ pics1 or Scripting. Graphics are important to a server, but if you make a proper server idea, graphics could simply just be unnecessary to an idea that works with open-source graphics or simply just a minimum of graphics.

[napo_p2p]

For me, I'm willing to develop, but not to the point where I have to pay the $40 a year or whatever it is for an account. One thing that might help attract some developers is some kind of (cheaper) subscription option that gives you access to a particular playerworld.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by napo_p2p

For me, I'm willing to develop, but not to the point where I have to pay the $40 a year or whatever it is for an account. One thing that might help attract some developers is some kind of (cheaper) subscription option that gives you access to a particular playerworld.

paying 10-15 USD for a "Playerworld-specific" account would be cool.

[Soala]

Originally Posted by Horrified

over 100 levels

Are you serious ?

Actually, each server would need to have quite a good gmap, it just depends on what you make.

If you make a modern style, then ok you can copy Era and make a small map so players wont get lost to find someone to fight with.

But if you make RPG, don't you seriously think it needs around...350 levels at least ? Or there is no point.
And yeah, 350 is WAY more than 100, people never really realize that it's not even enough.
Think about it, Unholy Nation is currently a bit over 300.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by alexandralove

Are you serious ?

Actually, each server would need to have quite a good gmap, it just depends on what you make.

If you make a modern style, then ok you can copy Era and make a small map so players wont get lost to find someone to fight with.

But if you make RPG, don't you seriously think it needs around...350 levels at least ? Or there is no point.
And yeah, 350 is WAY more than 100, people never really realize that it's not even enough.
Think about it, Unholy Nation is currently a bit over 300.

I'm serious -- 100 or 150 levels. Make content in your server like quests not make use of the entire GMap immediantly. If you acn make your gameplay right, even 50 could do.

[Vima]

Yeah, it's too expensive to be a developer. They need to make that cheaper.

I also think they should break the "Classic Tab/Hosted Tab/Gold tab/Hidden Under Construction Servers"
Everyone should be under the same roof, same conditions. Because it's simply too hard for servers to get attention, to get developers.

Graal have great tools, i don't really think it has anything to do with that.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by Vima

Yeah, it's too expensive to be a developer. They need to make that cheaper.

I also think they should break the "Classic Tab/Hosted Tab/Gold tab/Hidden Under Construction Servers"
Everyone should be under the same roof, same conditions. Because it's simply too hard for servers to get attention, to get developers.

Graal have great tools, i don't really think it has anything to do with that.

I don't think that servers should have absolutely no tab for ones that are more complete, but i think that an extra tab for "New Under Construction Servers" and "Under Construction Servers." Servers that are set as staff-only are exempt from all tabs, because if you're staff-only it obviously means one thing: you want privacy.

Just because ith as the tools doesn't mean that there are people willing to work. There's a shortage of developers, so I'd say you stick to making simplistic but enjoyable things. I've got quite a few very good, completely outlined server ideas that use very limited amounts of levels and development, but the enjoyability is endless.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Horrified

I'm serious -- 100 or 150 levels. Make content in your server like quests not make use of the entire GMap immediantly. If you acn make your gameplay right, even 50 could do.

I like a variety of levels, even if they're not used, honestly. Valikorlia, last I checked (if /stats is correct), has well over 1,000 levels. I mean well over. I wouldn't sacrifice this for finishing a server faster.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I like a variety of levels, even if they're not used, honestly. Valikorlia, last I checked (if /stats is correct), has well over 1,000 levels. I mean well over. I wouldn't sacrifice this for finishing a server faster.

Yes, and remind me how long Valikorlia has existed At least 6 years?

Time factor and quality over quantity is much more important.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Horrified

Yes, and remind me how long Valikorlia has existed At least 6 years?

Time factor and quality over quantity is much more important.

The current version of Valikorlia has only existed for (if even) a year. All new levels were made. A good team should be able to output a high quantity of quality levels. I will give you that Valikorlia's vast amount of levels is a necessity, and that other servers probably won't be RP servers that need the environment. However, 50 levels does not a interesting server make.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

The current version of Valikorlia has only existed for (if even) a year. All new levels were made. A good team should be able to output a high quantity of quality levels. I will give you that Valikorlia's vast amount of levels is a necessity, and that other servers probably won't be RP servers that need the environment. However, 50 levels does not a interesting server make.

How much staff does Valikorlia have? And I'm sure they also have high quality staff members; you expect to have yourself with a bunch of top-notch levelers?

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Horrified

How much staff does Valikorlia have? And I'm sure they also have high quality staff members; you expect to have yourself with a bunch of top-notch levelers?

At the time, we had around 2-3 active level makers at any given time. I don't buy the excuse that classic servers get all the talented staff. Our LATs start out knowing only the basics. I started out knowing only the basics, and I became LAT Chief during the development of the initial version release.

What managers need to do is find at least one good level maker. They don't have to be great. They just have to be good. That person hires somebody else that has an interest in learning, and teaches them. It's the same with scripting, and all other developing jobs.

People starting a server today are looking for the best of the best, and won't accept anything lower. These people just don't exist. The best of the best are working on other servers, which is how they've gotten as good as they are.

If I were going to start my own server, I would take the entire year subscription and use it for pure development. I wouldn't have a goal of getting the server out in that year. I would just make a goal of getting all the core systems made, the main levels made, a good selection of graphics made. With enough luck, I would be finished by the time my subscription ran out, and I would attempt to get it hosted. If I'm not finished, I spend the money and pay for another 6 months. The bottom line is that these people don't realize that making a server isn't something to jump in to. You need a plan, and you need the financial backing.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

At the time, we had around 2-3 active level makers at any given time. I don't buy the excuse that classic servers get all the talented staff. Our LATs start out knowing only the basics. I started out knowing only the basics, and I became LAT Chief during the development of the initial version release.

What managers need to do is find at least one good level maker. They don't have to be great. They just have to be good. That person hires somebody else that has an interest in learning, and teaches them. It's the same with scripting, and all other developing jobs.

People starting a server today are looking for the best of the best, and won't accept anything lower. These people just don't exist. The best of the best are working on other servers, which is how they've gotten as good as they are.

If I were going to start my own server, I would take the entire year subscription and use it for pure development. I wouldn't have a goal of getting the server out in that year. I would just make a goal of getting all the core systems made, the main levels made, a good selection of graphics made. With enough luck, I would be finished by the time my subscription ran out, and I would attempt to get it hosted. If I'm not finished, I spend the money and pay for another 6 months. The bottom line is that these people don't realize that making a server isn't something to jump in to. You need a plan, and you need the financial backing.

Yes, but that's why I think it's rediculous that people want such big things done. I didn't say that I'd have a 50 level GMap and it'd never evolve, I'm just saying with limited skills and a limited amount of time and dedication because it's not a classic server, I don't think it's reasonable to grow to something bigger until you get public.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Horrified

Yes, but that's why I think it's rediculous that people want such big things done. I didn't say that I'd have a 50 level GMap and it'd never evolve, I'm just saying with limited skills and a limited amount of time and dedication because it's not a classic server, I don't think it's reasonable to grow to something bigger until you get public.

But is that selling themselves short? I mean, UC server are compared to Classic servers when they're trying to go Hosted. Making such a limited amount of levels might hurt their chances, wouldn't it?

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

But is that selling themselves short? I mean, UC server are compared to Classic servers when they're trying to go Hosted. Making such a limited amount of levels might hurt their chances, wouldn't it?

Not if you make it up by having much more promising content in the levels. You can fit, and do, a lot in a 50 level map.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Horrified

There's only about a handful of rediculously great scripters on Graalonline, for example. I mean people that have taken college courses. One of them is, of course, Stefan. I'm sure you can pick out the others. These guys can tackle big things

I agree with a lot of things posted in this thread, and much of your post, but I think this is the entirely wrong attitude. Programming and especially gscript is not some mysterious craft that only a select few can learn.

Graal basically provides the game "architecture" anyway. If you were supposed to write your entirely own game, you could easily run into a lot of bad decisions that make everything harder, but in Graal you can mostly just throw more code at whatever problem until it goes away. If you have a few competent (not necessarily "rediculous") people figuring out how everything fits together, scripting a very custom server is not rocket science.

I do not want to belittle awesome scripters or claim that they do not deserve the respect they receive, because I do think that they are what really makes or breaks playerworlds. But if people had a bit less awe and more of a "I am going to figure out how this works" attitude, they could get much further. If all those people who are all "hey I am not a scripter I just do ____" got to terms with the fact that scripting is supremely important for server development and just went ahead and learned it, I am sure we would have a lot more interesting servers or at least ideas in the game, even if they use the default graphics or reuse old artwork.

[thesmoothcriminal]

Graal is deadwieght in the mmo industry, pricing model is completely wrong for this type of game. Consquently bad business decisions have resulted in a stagnent player base. Few players means fewer developers means less content. For a user content driven game CJ has made it very unattractive. Developers are getting old and are drifting away from the game, there are not enough talented new developers coming in to keep graal going forever.

[Vima]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

At the time, we had around 2-3 active level makers at any given time. I don't buy the excuse that classic servers get all the talented staff. Our LATs start out knowing only the basics. I started out knowing only the basics, and I became LAT Chief during the development of the initial version release.

No. That's not true!

Classic/Gold servers only hire the best of the best. Under Construction servers need to be happy if they find one or two good developers, those are probably some their friends that they have.
I know that, because I've been a LAT for many years, worked on both many under construction servers, classic tab server and H-Tab server.
Classic tab servers gets the best people, it's obvious. The person who is working for that server doesn't need to buy gold every month and that server have more players/get more attention.

What managers need to do is find at least one good level maker. They don't have to be great. They just have to be good. That person hires somebody else that has an interest in learning, and teaches them. It's the same with scripting, and all other developing jobs.

It doesn't work like that. Developing is not like a chinese factory.
People don't get good at making levels / graphics in two days, it takes YEARS. Alright, I'll buy scriptings... but making levels, graphics etc. No one can learn anyone about that. Everyone have their own style and their own developement process!

People starting a server today are looking for the best of the best, and won't accept anything lower. These people just don't exist. The best of the best are working on other servers, which is how they've gotten as good as they are.

The do exist, like on GK & Zone and on some other classic tab servers. The other talented people are working on their own projects.

If I were going to start my own server, I would take the entire year subscription and use it for pure development. I wouldn't have a goal of getting the server out in that year. I would just make a goal of getting all the core systems made, the main levels made, a good selection of graphics made. With enough luck, I would be finished by the time my subscription ran out, and I would attempt to get it hosted. If I'm not finished, I spend the money and pay for another 6 months. The bottom line is that these people don't realize that making a server isn't something to jump in to. You need a plan, and you need the financial backing.

Most of the developers are getting old and therefor have a pretty busy IRL life too. It's hard to find time to make all those things in a certain time. If you work all alone, it might be easy to follow the plans. But you have to count in the : Staff working process, PWA inspection process etc. Which are impossible to plan!

My point is: It's almost impossible to follow the plans, it's really not as easy as you think.

[Vima]

Originally Posted by Horrified

Not if you make it up by having much more promising content in the levels. You can fit, and do, a lot in a 50 level map.

I doubt it would go further than H-Tab.
It's not that easy as you may think to get to the classic tab.

[Soala]

Originally Posted by Horrified

Not if you make it up by having much more promising content in the levels. You can fit, and do, a lot in a 50 level map.

I like large spaces, and pretty long games =P
If it isn't the same thing everywhere, then it becomes interessting

I already played some games that were interessting, but the only thing you had to do was walk, kill something, and bring back stuff

Map was nice, but seriously walking over all the gmap and do it backwards all the time is very boring.

So at least a very nice map, with lot of space, and where you could think of some sort of category, for exemple quests about a mountain, with a city around idk

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by alexandralove

I like large spaces, and pretty long games =P
If it isn't the same thing everywhere, then it becomes interessting

I already played some games that were interessting, but the only thing you had to do was walk, kill something, and bring back stuff

Map was nice, but seriously walking over all the gmap and do it backwards all the time is very boring.

So at least a very nice map, with lot of space, and where you could think of some sort of category, for exemple quests about a mountain, with a city around idk

I really don't think Graal playerworlds are fit to be this type of "massive" game. Different servers that each have there own thing going on, and aren't trying to steal playercount from each other by "bettering" what others have and instead having different things going for each other, is better then one gigantic server.

Everyone going "my server is like this..." and having a completely different idea from each other is much better then comparing it to an already existing state like "Classic, RPG or Modern." I think if people stopped getting inspiration from and trying to emulate existing games and making it be it's own in 2D Graal, the different things this game could do could be awesome. I know that sounds weird considering Graal itself is basically a clone of Zelda, but yeah.

[DustyPorViva]

Lowering your standards and making a server half the size of the servers on the classic tab isn't a sure-fire way for success. It's just not that simple... it will probably lessen the workload, but not but as much as you imagine... people usually give up before they even have 50 levels of the overworld done, and half of the systems... so ya, I don't think LESS=SUCCESS as simply as you imagine it, Horrified.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Lowering your standards and making a server half the size of the servers on the classic tab isn't a sure-fire way for success. It's just not that simple... it will probably lessen the workload, but not but as much as you imagine... people usually give up before they even have 50 levels of the overworld done, and half of the systems... so ya, I don't think LESS=SUCCESS as simply as you imagine it, Horrified.

I think less is more attractive. People don't want to make 300 levels in the long run, so they stop...if they know that they only need 50, they'll push themselves because they think it's more of a reasonable amount.

edit: I don't think you should lower standards at all, just 50 levels should insure quality really.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Lowering your standards and making a server half the size of the servers on the classic tab isn't a sure-fire way for success. It's just not that simple... it will probably lessen the workload, but not but as much as you imagine... people usually give up before they even have 50 levels of the overworld done, and half of the systems... so ya, I don't think LESS=SUCCESS as simply as you imagine it, Horrified.

I agree, you somewhat have to match a quality standard.
In other words:
Why should players of other playerworlds switch over to yours? You have to give a reason

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Horrified

I think less is more attractive. People don't want to make 300 levels in the long run, so they stop...if they know that they only need 50, they'll push themselves because they think it's more of a reasonable amount.

edit: I don't think you should lower standards at all, just 50 levels should insure quality really.

I think quality is attractive... whether that comes in 50 levels or 300 depends solely on the development team and their plans. I don't think people give up because they make unreasonable requests of themselves, but just because they burn out their initial excitement. Like I said, most give up before they even hit the 50 mark. So are you going to say people should make 25 level overworlds to compensate?

There are a lot of things that contribute to the fall of playerworlds, it's not as clear-cut as you imagine.