Community Scripting Project - Page 3

LoneAngelIbesu · #81 07-27-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

If we're going to have any proposed scripted projects they need to be useful things.

Then propose your own. This isn't a mandatory project. This is a voluntary project that Cali wanted to do. You've scripted many things that some people think are useless, need I remind you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

That's your point of view at least.

If that wasn't an honest-to-god fact, then it wouldn't be against the rules to ask for complete scripts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

Who cares? If its a private server its not like its going to go Classic if its just a clone of another server or if its just patch worked together with scripts from different places that don't even work together.

What about Valikorlia? We're in the process of making these things. If somebody were allowed to take our scripts, and they finished it before we did, then all the work you've done was pointless. It's called stealing. It's immoral and cheap.

The_Kez · #82 07-27-2008, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

Who cares? If its a private server its not like its going to go Classic if its just a clone of another server or if its just patch worked together with scripts from different places that don't even work together.

If the server were to gain enough quality and uniqueness to go Classic then I highly doubt the scripts will even look like what they were when they were originally taken from elsewhere.
He was just banned for making so many topics.

IF it is a private server. There have been enough cases of classic servers stealing from other classic servers already without everything becomming open source. And I doubt the PW admins are going to want the job of policing every single script taken from one classic server and going to another one with tiny insignificant little changes. And I doubt the staff are going to want the job of contacting a PW admin every time they find their script on someone elses server.

There is a code gallery for open source scripts.

Loriel · #83 07-27-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

What about Valikorlia? We're in the process of making these things. If somebody were allowed to take our scripts, and they finished it before we did, then all the work you've done was pointless. It's called stealing. It's immoral and cheap.

No, if they were allowed to take your scripts, it would not be called stealing.

cbk1994 · #84 07-27-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

You joined March 2003, you should know the answer to that.

I didn't become active in the community until long after that.

The_Kez · #85 07-27-2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

No, if they were allowed to take your scripts, it would not be called stealing.

Lets allow stealing in real life. No one would be able to steal if there was no law against it.
It's just as rediculous when it comes to open source playerworlds.

Loriel · #86 07-27-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

Lets allow stealing in real life. No one would be able to steal if there was no law against it.
It's just as rediculous when it comes to open source playerworlds.

Try that again without the retarded misspelling and I might pay attention.

The_Kez · #87 07-27-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

Try that again without the retarded misspelling and I might pay attention.

Translation: I have no veritable rebuttal.

LoneAngelIbesu · #88 07-27-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

No, if they were allowed to take your scripts, it would not be called stealing.

Stealing is stealing under any other name.

Forcing all servers to make their systems open-source is a death sentence. If servers were businesses, then their systems would be their trade secrets. You force a business to reveal their trade secrets, then you remove any security that kept that business propped up.

Loriel · #89 07-27-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Stealing is stealing under any other name.

It is not stealing anyway because the moment you upload anything to Graal, it does not belong to you anymore and Graal can do whatever it ****ing wants with it.

Quote:

Forcing all servers to make their systems open-source is a death sentence. If servers were businesses, then their systems would be their trade secrets. You force a business to reveal their trade secrets, then you remove any security that kept that business propped up.

man these open source companies must be really stupid then

The_Kez · #90 07-27-2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

It is not stealing anyway because the moment you upload anything to Graal, it does not belong to you anymore and Graal can do whatever it ****ing wants with it.

man these open source companies must be really stupid then

It can do whatever it wants with it. We're saying what the most logical thing for them to do with it is, and that is to keep it closed source.

LoneAngelIbesu · #91 07-27-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

It is not stealing anyway because the moment you upload anything to Graal, it does not belong to you anymore and Graal can do whatever it ****ing wants with it.

No, it is stealing. It's taking something without the permission of the originator. Graal's content policy protects each server's unique content; taking it without asking is stealing. Do I have to define the word any more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

man these open source companies must be really stupid then

Open source companies usually rely on donations. It's not a very profitable business model.

Just because you don't care if some schmuck builds success off of your hard work doesn't mean that everybody should be forced to give out their scripts. It also doesn't make somebody who wants to keep their hard work exactly that -- theirs -- selfish.

Loriel · #92 07-27-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Open source companies usually rely on donations.

No, they do not.

Look can you just stop posting or something? This is not going anywhere.

LoneAngelIbesu · #93 07-27-2008, 10:59 PM

Name some multi-million dollar open source companies. I can guarantee that they don't give away everything and let you do whatever you want with it.

I'm not going to stop posting just because you can't come up with retorts.

The_Kez · #94 07-27-2008, 11:04 PM

Don't even let him change the topic to open source companies. I think the last thing he wants to do is have to argue about whether or not open source servers are a good idea or not.
And whether or not you suggest it to future development, you're absoloutly right, 'this is not going anywhere'. So don't bother.

DrakilorP2P · #95 07-28-2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Open source companies usually rely on donations. It's not a very profitable business model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Name some multi-million dollar open source companies. I can guarantee that they don't give away everything and let you do whatever you want with it.

That's not how free software works.

Given that, I don't think it's appropriate to apply business concepts to Graal servers since they're not even remotely comparable to conventional companies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

What about Valikorlia? We're in the process of making these things. If somebody were allowed to take our scripts, and they finished it before we did, then all the work you've done was pointless. It's called stealing. It's immoral and cheap.

You people keep posting "what if..." nightmare scenarios. Frankly, I've never seen any of these things actually happen in the real world, which is why I believe your have nothing to be afraid of.

Also, it's not called stealing; it's called copying. The effect on the victim is only indirect.

The_Kez · #96 07-28-2008, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrakilorP2P

You people keep posting "what if..." nightmare scenarios. Frankly, I've never seen any of these things actually happen in the real world, which is why I believe your have nothing to be afraid of.

Also, it's not called stealing; it's called copying. The effect on the victim is only indirect.

I have seen them happen. I've had my own scripts stolen from ex staffers wo went to work on another classic server. Fortunately for me Graal servers are still closed source, so I could have PWA step in. If they are open source I don't have that option anymore. When I create something, I like the idea that I can choose whether or not to make it opensource by posting it in the code gallery, or keeping it private to that server.

And as far as wheter it's called stealing or copying is completely missing the point. It doesn't matter what you call it; you're still taking someone's hard work and making it so it's not -their- hard work anymore.

LoneAngelIbesu · #97 07-28-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrakilorP2P

You people keep posting "what if..." nightmare scenarios. Frankly, I've never seen any of these things actually happen in the real world, which is why I believe your have nothing to be afraid of.

What exactly is the downside of asking "what if"? No decision should ever be made without knowing all the possible consequences. The scenario I posted is a very possible scenario if anyone had access to any server's scripts.

But, realistically, there is nothing to be afraid of, because servers will never be forced to be open source.

DrakilorP2P · #98 07-28-2008, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

I have seen them happen. I've had my own scripts stolen from ex staffers wo went to work on another classic server. Fortunately for me Graal servers are still closed source, so I could have PWA step in. If they are open source I don't have that option anymore. When I create something, I like the idea that I can choose whether or not to make it opensource by posting it in the code gallery, or keeping it private to that server.

Why exactly was it a bad thing that they copied the scripts? Oh no, they are trying to make a better server, they must be stopped at all costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

And as far as wheter it's called stealing or copying is completely missing the point. It doesn't matter what you call it; you're still taking someone's hard work and making it so it's not -their- hard work anymore.

"Making it so it's not their hard work?" I really have no clue how that is even possible. I generally leave it to Bill Gates to pretend that 'work' is like a substance that can be sold for a fee.

The_Kez · #99 07-28-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrakilorP2P

Why exactly was it a bad thing that they copied the scripts? Oh no, they are trying to make a better server, they must be stopped at all costs.

"Making it so it's not their hard work?" I really have no clue how that is even possible. I generally leave it to Bill Gates to pretend that 'work' is like a substance that can be sold for a fee.

It's not bad that they're trying to make a better server. It's bad that they can't make a better server without leeching off of the work that the rest of us do. What reason is there for anyone on graal to learn to script if all you have to do is copy/paste from other servers and make minor changes?
And like I said before, it's not about private servers. There is a competition between the servers for graal's player count, that would be completely lost if all you had to do on a classic server was take another server's scripts. Classic servers would evolve to look more and more similar to each other every single day.

And yes, just because you don't mind that people take what you work on and use it for themselves without your permission does not mean the rest of us should not have the choice to keep what we make for our servers.
That's not selfish, again, I point to the code gallery.

DrakilorP2P · #**100** 07-28-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

It's not bad that they're trying to make a better server. It's bad that they can't make a better server without leeching off of the work that the rest of us do. What reason is there for anyone on graal to learn to script if all you have to do is copy/paste from other servers and make minor changes?
And like I said before, it's not about private servers. There is a competition between the servers for graal's player count, that would be completely lost if all you had to do on a classic server was take another server's scripts. Classic servers would evolve to look more and more similar to each other every single day.

I think we can rebrand the copying and pasting of a server as "forking." Contrary to your intuition, forks are a good thing in most open source environments.
I wish to propose the hypothesis that originality will be more important than ever when clones are easy to make.
And regarding learning: people generally don't copy and paste as a substitute to learning. Most of the time they make stupid threads asking for someone to "maek" their game for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

And yes, just because you don't mind that people take what you work on and use it for themselves without your permission does not mean the rest of us should not have the choice to keep what we make for our servers.
That's not selfish, again, I point to the code gallery.

Actually, I'm not really arguing for a draconian approach to this.

The_Kez · #**101** 07-28-2008, 03:01 AM

Forking may be fine in an open source environment, but that isn't going to persuade anyone that making graal servers open source in the first place is a good idea. You said yourself that people don't substitute copy/paste for learning. That's exactly my point. People who can copy/paste won't even bother learning because they won't need to. They'll just blindly copy/paste whatever they need into their server and let that be that.

We can argue the pros and cons of making everyones work accessable to everyone all day long but in the end I very highly doubt that it will ever be implemented.

DrakilorP2P · #**102** 07-28-2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

People who can copy/paste won't even bother learning because they won't need to. They'll just blindly copy/paste whatever they need into their server and let that be that.

I'm not convinced that such an individual would even be capable of doing so and get good results. Are you doing this argument out of genuine concern for these people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

We can argue the pros and cons of making everyones work accessable to everyone all day long but in the end I very highly doubt that it will ever be implemented.

I completely agree.

Inverness · #**103** 07-28-2008, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

What about Valikorlia? We're in the process of making these things. If somebody were allowed to take our scripts, and they finished it before we did, then all the work you've done was pointless. It's called stealing. It's immoral and cheap.

Nobody is going to get a classic server by copying Valikorlia. I'm tempted to release the scripts just to prove the point.

LoneAngelIbesu · #**104** 07-28-2008, 04:03 AM

If they finished their server before we finished ours? I wouldn't say never.

The_Kez · #**105** 07-28-2008, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrakilorP2P

I'm not convinced that such an individual would even be capable of doing so and get good results. Are you doing this argument out of genuine concern for these people?

Not for concern for these people, for concern that people like that would be able to use what I've worked on to advance their classic servers.

@Inverness: No one has to get classic. Servers that are already classic will benefit from using your scripts without knowing anything about how they work, and do it without your permission.

Inverness · #**106** 07-28-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

@Inverness: No one has to get classic. Servers that are already classic will benefit from using your scripts without knowing anything about how they work, and do it without your permission.

If they benefit from it and bring more people to Graal then good for them. And then the globals would love me because I'm helping bring more people to Graal for them to rule over with an iron fist.

And there isn't a classic server that exists now that could use my scripts without having to modify them for the server. Which means they would have to learn how the script works and modify it.

The_Kez · #**107** 07-28-2008, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

If they benefit from it and bring more people to Graal then good for them. And then the globals would love me because I'm helping bring more people to Graal for them to rule over with an iron fist.

And there isn't a classic server that exists now that could use my scripts without having to modify them for the server. Which means they would have to learn how the script works and modify it.

At your first point: That is not to say everyone is competing for the love of global admins.

At your second point: That is not to say other servers don't have scripts which are easily usable simply by copy/paste.

Inverness · #**108** 07-28-2008, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

At your first point: That is not to say everyone is competing for the love of global admins.

I'm not either, that was a joke. Did you think otherwise?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Kez

At your second point: That is not to say other servers don't have scripts which are easily usable simply by copy/paste.

If the script can work with a simple copy/paste then its probably something that should be open source anyways.

LoneAngelIbesu · #**109** 07-28-2008, 05:11 AM

If all scripts on all servers are open source, then they wouldn't need to modify anything to get a custom system working.

Inverness · #**110** 07-28-2008, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

If all scripts on all servers are open source, then they wouldn't need to modify anything to get a custom system working.

They would if they wanted their server to be unique enough to go classic.

Loriel · #**111** 07-28-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

If all scripts on all servers are open source, then they wouldn't need to modify anything to get a custom system working.

Making playerworld creation easier is a good thing.

cbk1994 · #**112** 07-28-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

Making playerworld creation easier is a good thing.

Sure, but the current problem is that there are too many servers.

As I've been trying to say, servers that are extremely organized and have a dev team before even starting the server should not have to suffer because someone else decides to make a server with no dev team and expects others to make it for them.

Anyone should be allowed to have their own server, but they can't expect that it will go anywhere unless they can get a dev team. It's always good to have your server planned out before buying the server.

Rufus · #**113** 07-28-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

As I've been trying to say, servers that are extremely organized and have a dev team before even starting the server should not have to suffer because someone else decides to make a server with no dev team and expects others to make it for them.

How would they suffer?

cbk1994 · #**114** 07-28-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

How would they suffer?

Players would go to the other server, and the original server would have less players.

Rufus · #**115** 07-28-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Players would go to the other server, and the original server would have less players.

You would expect that an extremely organized server, with an abundance of development staff would always have a major advantage over a server with no organization or staff, right?

Loriel · #**116** 07-28-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Sure, but the current problem is that there are too many servers.

That is not really a problem. The problem is that all of them suck.

All scripts being available to everyone else does not mean that you get away without development teams. That is a pretty silly conclusion.

cbk1994 · #**117** 07-28-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

You would expect that an extremely organized server, with an abundance of development staff would always have a major advantage over a server with no organization or staff, right?

Yes, but that doesn't mean they need the competition of their own content on another server.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

That is not really a problem. The problem is that all of them suck.

All scripts being available to everyone else does not mean that you get away without development teams. That is a pretty silly conclusion.

A good server wouldn't, but some servers would just copy and paste exactly from a server.

Loriel · #**118** 07-28-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

A good server wouldn't, but some servers would just copy and paste exactly from a server.

It is not going to hurt anyone if they do that.

cbk1994 · #**119** 07-28-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriel

It is not going to hurt anyone if they do that.

Yes it will, it will hurt the original server.

Rufus · #**120** 07-28-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Yes, but that doesn't mean they need the competition of their own content on another server.

You're assuming that servers reusing scripts would be carbon copies of the servers that the scripts are from, and while that might be true in some cases, that is not why it is being suggested. Servers which copy Era for example are scripting the same systems, in the exact same way, but they're never going to be accepted into the mainstream server list as they lack originality, thus not creating much competition at all. What it does create is a push for creativity and originality, and in the majority of servers and on Graal as a whole this is very much needed.

If a server like Graal2001 for instance wanted to use the car script Era has for their Go-Karts event, I do not see how this is going to hurt Era at all, because borrowing or not the Karts are going to be scripted. Time is saved, and it would not be creating competition from Era's own content, because it is not Era's content.