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[Admins]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

I might think about purchasing more time later on if the UPDATES that were supposed to released (Flying tech, etc... ) were released. Usually when you pay for a game on any type of basis, updates are released.

There were many updates on many Graal servers. What people often don't realize is that there is a lot of under-the hood working required to keep Graal running and making it possible that playerworlds can release those things.

There is e.g. the networking, in the last year we had just 2 hours downtime of two machines (that are not hosted by ourself). Then there were many updates to the gservers and npcservers to support new scripting features and to remove glitches. We are also working on new client versions to add new features, speed things up, remove bugs, support new platforms. We have added a much easier way to rent a playerworld, we have introduced trading cards, made it possible to sent gift wishes (easier way to let someone upgrade without giving out passwords), we have made things more secure by adding a way to lock your account to a specific computer, made it possible to pause your subscription in case you plan to leave Graal for some time, added some tools for developers (gui editor, global chat, advanced scripted RC).

We know that we need to support Graal more by introducing new content and also helping playerworlds to use their full potential. Just saying that there are no updates or that 3 euro per month are too much is not really fair though.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by Stefan

We know that we need to support Graal more by introducing new content and also helping playerworlds to use their full potential. Just saying that there are no updates or that 3 euro per month are too much is not really fair though.

Well you have to see it like this: they have to pay 13$ or so more, you have my guarantee that you can buy more with that, than you can buy with 3 € in germany (5 bags of panini stickers or so)

- Niklas

[Rufus]

The majority of the questions I asked haven't been answered yet.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Stefan

What people often don't realize is that there is a lot of under-the hood working required to keep Graal running and making it possible that playerworlds can release those things.

What you don't realize is that the everyday player couldn't care less. Give us some useless fun crap that will amuse us until the next thing is released.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Stefan

we have introduced trading cards,

Which most of us don't like.

made it possible to pause your subscription in case you plan to leave Graal for some time,

Yes, but you've also increased the prices dramatically.

added some tools for developers (gui editor, global chat, advanced scripted RC).

The global chat is hardly a tool for developers, and the GUI Editor is pretty lame. Most scripters prefer to write their own GUIs. And, most prefer the external RC over scripted. I'll admit that Skyld did a great job on the scripted RC though, and you have done a great job with external windows, but what we now need is a level editor, and decent GANI editor (I haven't tried the one someone made which you modified; I will try that).

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

and the GUI Editor is pretty lame. Most scripters prefer to write their own GUIs. And, most prefer the external RC over scripted.

Yes, I prefer the external RC, but the GUI editor isn't really lame. It saves me a lot of time and hassle, I just wish it supported more things like image controls and stuff. Over all, the GUI editor is great.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

It saves me a lot of time and hassle, I just wish it supported more things like image controls and stuff. Over all, the GUI editor is great.

Wow, I have never met a scripter who liked it

It produces horrible code in my opinion, and generally it is easier just to script the GUI.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by kia345

What you don't realize is that the everyday player couldn't care less.

The average everyday player doesn't really distinguish between "official" content and that created by other players, either.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Googi

The average everyday player doesn't really distinguish between "official" content and that created by other players, either.

Hahaha, that is completely false.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Hahaha, that is completely false.

Not really. Anymore, players tend to make better content than the official staff, as the official staff focus more on the client and the server than content.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not really. Anymore, players tend to make better content than the official staff, as the official staff focus more on the client and the server than content.

That is not what he said. You just agreed with him, then contradicted your agreement in the very same sentence. Make your mind up.

[Admins]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Yes, but you've also increased the prices dramatically.

For your particular case it is more expensive, for others it is less expensive. You must see that the access to UC playerworlds has been the same price for around 4 years (was VIP until last year which was costing $25 and not available for first time subscribers), and the price for 12 month Gold bundle has still not been increased.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Stefan

For your particular case it is more expensive, for others it is less expensive. You must see that the access to UC playerworlds has been the same price for around 4 years (was VIP until last year which was costing $25 and not available for first time subscribers), and the price for 12 month Gold bundle has still not been increased.

So why not provide different bundles like you were? This way everyone gets what they wants.

As it is, I'm not going to pay 40 some odd dollars to play UC playerworlds.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Rufus

That is not what he said. You just agreed with him, then contradicted your agreement in the very same sentence. Make your mind up.

That you think he contradicted his agreement suggests you didn't understand what I said (admittedly that would partly be my fault). I wasn't trying to say that playercount is split evenly between official and player-made content. I was trying to say that players generally don't really care very much about who makes content, just whether or not they like the content. More player-made content attracts more players, but this is because of the content itself (along with economic reasons), not because the content is player-made.

[Mafukie]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

So why not provide different bundles like you were? This way everyone gets what they wants.

As it is, I'm not going to pay 40 some odd dollars to play UC playerworlds.

You shouldn't have to pay to use UC Playerworlds because the person who runs the UC Playerworld is currently paying to run that server

Most of the updates effect the developers but there haven't been major content updates for the players. I can understand that since you put time into making things better for developers, players will get a better game experience. But there hasn't been anything really put out there with the current dev tools content wise. It will take a couple years of dedicated development on a single server to actually be worth playing on.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Stefan

For your particular case it is more expensive, for others it is less expensive. You must see that the access to UC playerworlds has been the same price for around 4 years (was VIP until last year which was costing $25 and not available for first time subscribers), and the price for 12 month Gold bundle has still not been increased.

4 years ago there was more players than there are now, and also understand that it's not just his particular case. Lots of people live where it will be more expensive, as I estimate around 40 percent of the already diminishing community live in the US.

What was wrong with the way we used to pay without gelats? Maybe adding a few more ways of paying ( meaning paying by cellphones and more paypal like websites ) would have been fine. Gelat's is like a cash shop in an already p2p game that the players themselves are developing! Also, the global position applications are being accepted, which means you're even asking us to go around and mod each other and such too! >:O

[Crono]

Clockwork is so cute when he's angry.

The only thing I'm disappointed with (just to repeat myself) is the increase in price. I'm glad they got rid of the different packages and just stuck with one big one.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Crono

Clockwork is so cute when he's angry.

>:3

[Worship]

Why not release separate gold subscriptions for Zone, GK, and Playerworld for 200gelats a month?
That way with the 24.00 € you can choose if you'd rather have 1 year of subscription for one of the 3 options, or you can get the 8month subscription for all 3.

[pooper200000]

Is Graal supposed to appeal to European children or American children? If it is meant to appeal to European children then I guess I should leave. The prices should match the player base you are appealing to. So is this meant to say that you mean to make your game appealing to European players?

[Chompy]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Is Graal supposed to appeal to European children or American children? If it is meant to appeal to European children then I guess I should leave. The prices should match the player base you are appealing to. So is this meant to say that you mean to make your game appealing to European players?

>_> I hate it when some games add beta testing.. ONLY to americans >:[

You're saying the Graal should focus on the american playerbase in terms of prices?

[DrakilorP2P]

Originally Posted by Chompy

>_> I hate it when some games add beta testing.. ONLY to americans >:[

That's because it's expensive to rent the great Atlantic cable.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Chompy

>_> I hate it when some games add beta testing.. ONLY to americans >:[

You're saying the Graal should focus on the american playerbase in terms of prices?

No. What I am saying is if they intend to provide prices in Euros they should also focus on making the game more appealing to European players. Right now the game is appealing to American players because of the language being English. However if they were appealing to the European player base then they would like-wise change the language to appeal. Example: Specialize, Specialise

The only real reason I can see them switching the prices is that with the lowering value of the American dollar, the European players were able to buy Graal for less and now they intend to have the prices of the game be stable by depending upon the stable euro.

I don't understand what direction they meant to go in when they switched to the euro.

[kia345]

The majority of Graal's players are American. Or at least everyone I've ever met on every server was from America or Canada. But look at what Stephen's been saying about Gk all this time: Stefan would rather Germans over Americans.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by kia345

The majority of Graal's players are American. Or at least everyone I've ever met on every server was from America or Canada. But look at what Stephen's been saying about Gk all this time: Stefan would rather Germans over Americans.

No the problem is rather that they have to pay taxes in europe, and need to earn their money in euro, as they are not in the USA.
Because of the low dollar, they made no money with americans anymore, though they are likely the majority of subscribers (24$ is currently 15,5€).

[Crono]

hai guys CJ is in europe afterall!!!!

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Darklux

No the problem is rather that they have to pay taxes in europe, and need to earn their money in euro, as they are not in the USA.
Because of the low dollar, they made no money with americans anymore, though they are likely the majority of subscribers (24$ is currently 15,5€).

But they dont have to increase the price that much.

[Mafukie]

The prices aren't that bad, 55.26USD for 12 months? I mean thats like 15 cents a day for a year. You have to give it to them on their uptime also, they never really go down for updates like most MMOs because the content is dynamic and delivered to the client. I'm sure I suck up 55.26 worth the bandwidth easy, but then again I don't really pay a subscription so I've been skating free and clear for years now. Which is why if there is some kind of major release I'll support it, I just wish the UC playerworlds didn't require a subscription or I'd probably rent a server too. Please don't insult them saying the prices are too high, we don't have advertisements in game, and if you can't afford it; I don't believe you can afford an internet connection to be online to play in the first place. This is a business people, if you like everything for free, there are plenty of horrible free to play MMOs out there that are.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Mafukie

The prices aren't that bad, 55.26USD for 12 months? I mean thats like 15 cents a day for a year [..] if you can't afford it; I don't believe you can afford an internet connection to be online to play in the first place.

You are forgetting the majority of players, and the target age range do not pay for their own internet, their parents do. Subscriptions to online games also usually come from parents, but a lot do not. Do the prices (in that respect) reflect value with the current "game" at all?

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Is Graal supposed to appeal to European children or American children? If it is meant to appeal to European children then I guess I should leave. The prices should match the player base you are appealing to. So is this meant to say that you mean to make your game appealing to European players?

It's appealing to their local exchange rate. Maybe when your dollar sucks less arse?

[Mafukie]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You are forgetting the majority of players, and the target age range do not pay for their own internet, their parents do. Subscriptions to online games also usually come from parents, but a lot do not. Do the prices (in that respect) reflect value with the current "game" at all?

I suppose all the kids who have 15$ a month subscriptions to other MMOs are different, they also paid 20-30 for the client and another 30 or so for the expansions. Although you can't compare the two in quality but subscriptions to online games isn't unheard of nowadays. Plus if the kid has video games parents expect to pay 40-60 dollars nowadays for one game the kid ends up not paying after a month, but if they pay 55-60 for a year and their kid is entertained I would say it is well worth it.

As for the reflection of the current game, I wouldn't call it 'ready' I'd say its still in beta. Especially when the most popular servers are created by the players and not the official creators; its pretty sad. But we all come back nomatter how much we are disappointed in the content so they must have something going for them that other MMOs don't. I think it is the community for the most part at this point. If they ever start a new server that will be official I want to oversee the development for sure.

The 3D game doesn't excite me, plus the graphics will not be up to par to current 3D games, although after viewing the pixelated graphics to 3D thread I think it would be do-able.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Mafukie

I suppose all the kids who have 15$ a month subscriptions to WoW are different, they also paid 20-30 for the client and another 30 or so for the expansions. Although you can't compare the two in quality but subscriptions to online games isn't unheard of nowadays. Plus if the kid has video games parents expect to pay 40-60 dollars nowadays for one game the kid ends up not paying after a month, but if they pay 55-60 for a year and their kid is entertained I would say it is well worth it.

I don't disagree with the subscription itself, it's the price that has increased with nothing to show for it really. The amount of players has already been decreasing quite fast recently, so where is the logic in removing subscription packages that have existed for quite a while, then bundling them into a forced subscription?

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Mafukie

The prices aren't that bad, 55.26USD for 12 months? I mean thats like 15 cents a day for a year. You have to give it to them on their uptime also, they never really go down for updates like most MMOs because the content is dynamic and delivered to the client. I'm sure I suck up 55.26 worth the bandwidth easy, but then again I don't really pay a subscription so I've been skating free and clear for years now. Which is why if there is some kind of major release I'll support it, I just wish the UC playerworlds didn't require a subscription or I'd probably rent a server too. Please don't insult them saying the prices are too high, we don't have advertisements in game, and if you can't afford it; I don't believe you can afford an internet connection to be online to play in the first place. This is a business people, if you like everything for free, there are plenty of horrible free to play MMOs out there that are.

Yeah but when i pay a lot of money for something, i expect playable content and not a barren wasteland. And im sure they dont use that much bandwidth considering they have tons of idiots who buy dead servers. And though talking about WoW is against forum rules, they have alot of content daily.

[Mafukie]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I don't disagree with the subscription itself, it's the price that has increased with nothing to show for it really. The amount of players has already been decreasing quite fast recently, so where is the logic in removing subscription packages that have existed for quite a while, then bundling them into a forced subscription?

Because its a new business model that they want to try that they've probably been researching into doing and felt it would work best for them. Kinda like how they decided to go from free to subscription based in the first place. Everything will be alright, the current player base isn't really effected for those who have lifetime classic accounts which make up for a majority of the player base anyway. So you are complaining about things that will for the most part effect the new people introduced into the game anyway.

I know it sucks that their pricing scheme, packages, ect keep changing but the company is still learning, they aren't a big corporate owned sister company. But I believe have been around long enough to catch on by now and talk with other developers and businesses at conventions to be doing better than they are now.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Mafukie

Everything will be alright, the current player base isn't really effected for those who have lifetime classic accounts

What if we play UC servers?

[Mafukie]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Yeah but when i pay a lot of money for something, i expect playable content and not a barren wasteland. And im sure they dont use that much bandwidth considering they have tons of idiots who buy dead servers. And though talking about WoW is against forum rules, they have alot of content daily.

It isn't a lot of money, and you don't even play on gold servers. So what the hell are you complaining about? I agree on your point on your server rental, which is why I don't believe we should be paying a subscription to play UC servers, infact it should be completely free for players to play on UC servers so the server you are paying for has a chance to get a player base...

I've edited my original post, sorry I think that its a good MMO to bring up and I'm sure Graal doesn't have a reason to neuter the discussion of it considering this game is 2D. If they are worried about losing customers because someone brought up another MMO then I think they have insecurities about their current product.

They also have a huge development team, and the finances to achieve that. So I am hoping with this new subscription model that they will also have the finances to improve the quality of the game.

[James]

This game needs more gold content, 'nuff said. There needs to be a balance between working on the client and working on in-game content.

You could have a client with the best features, but if there's no reason to play how is that going to help anything or anyone?

[Mafukie]

Originally Posted by James

This game needs more gold content, 'nuff said. There needs to be a balance between working on the client and working on in-game content.

You could have a client with the best features, but if there's no reason to play how is that going to help anything or anyone?

+Reputation, QFE

[Crono]

Originally Posted by James

This game needs more gold content, 'nuff said. There needs to be a balance between working on the client and working on in-game content.

Truth.

You could have a client with the best features, but if there's no reason to play how is that going to help anything or anyone?

Why, it's up to the players to pay and develop new content for Graal of course! LOGIC!

I can smell the NO1 ASKED U 2 DEVELOP argument coming anytime now.

[James]

Originally Posted by Crono

Why, it's up to the players to pay and develop new content for Graal of course! LOGIC!

It was nice back in the day when you could develop for free without having to buy a server just to see if your scripts work.

I know there are some nice people out there that will let you use their server, but it just seems very unpractical.

I liked it when you could just have everything offline on the privacy of your own hard drive.