What do you look for in an editor?

[DustyPorViva]

I'm bored, so I thought I'd try my hand at doing my level editor from scratch. Anyways... those details are meaningless so let me get to the point.

Online editors are going to be needed. We don't like it, I hate it, but if we want anything done, sadly it looks like we have to do it ourselves. So, I ask, what do you want in your dream editor?

I know Zero already has one, but it's not exactly my cup of tea. I don't doubt the actual quality of it, but I think we all know it's a lot different than the offline editor in terms of layout and usage. I plan to use the same sort of system though -- editing of the file, not the level. I will draw the level manually. This will give a much more offline feel.

I'll carry on and say what I have, and what I plan to have... comment on what you like and don't like, please. (Remember, external windows are coming out soon, so don't worry about cramped space!)

> Menu or buttons? - The top of the offline editor is filled with many buttons for different actions. Save, cut, undo... so on. Do you use them enough to justify them? Or would it just be better to put them all into a compact menu system(AKA file, edit... so on)?

> Layout? - I plan to use the layout of the offline editor... you're not going to change my mind. But, I do have a very important decision to make before I get too deep in the scripting. Compact(everything in one window?), or workspace(photoshop). I was replicating the current layout when I had a great idea. Instead of putting all the tools in buttons and having to go back and forth between predefined tiles... tileset... layers, I could instead put them all in windows and allow you to hide them, resize them, move them around and make your own workspace. The core of the editor would remain the same(tabbed levels and such), however.

> Fancy Tools? - Are they really needed? Would people REALLY use separate types of brushes enough to justify the workload of adding them? Or are people happy with how tools are done in the offline editor? I plan to do little additions such as tile highlighting and such, though.

> Local loading? - I had an idea to allow Load Local, and Load Server. IE, being able to load levels from your computer, or load them from the server. The problem with local loading would be I could only load them from your Graal directory... I could probably have options that lets you specify your level directory. But either way I can't let you browse your files, so it will be restricted to one folder. Would you use it if you could only load levels from one folder?

> Extra Baggage - NPCs mainly... NPCs are a big part of levels, but they would also be very hard to implement. Should I bother with it? At the most, I could allow you to view/move them around... I don't think I'm going to worry about allowing you to edit them. So, are NPCs important enough?

> Zooming? - I might be able to add a zooming system. AKA, zoom the level in and out. I expect this would be really helpful for those with low resolutions... I certainly think I can pull it off, and I think it will be a very useful system.

Hmm... I think that's it. Oh, of course I will have layers :P I plan to do something very similar to photoshops layer window(I wish I could do previews for each layer, too much processing though). And because Graal can add and manage as many layers as you'd like, the system will be very similar as well.

Anyways, post your suggestions and what you'd like to see in an editor.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

> Menu or buttons? - The top of the offline editor is filled with many buttons for different actions. Save, cut, undo... so on. Do you use them enough to justify them? Or would it just be better to put them all into a compact menu system(AKA file, edit... so on)?

Menu, but with keyboard shortcuts.

> Layout? - I plan to use the layout of the offline editor... you're not going to change my mind. But, I do have a very important decision to make before I get too deep in the scripting. Compact(everything in one window?), or workspace(photoshop). I was replicating the current layout when I had a great idea. Instead of putting all the tools in buttons and having to go back and forth between predefined tiles... tileset... layers, I could instead put them all in windows and allow you to hide them, resize them, move them around and make your own workspace. The core of the editor would remain the same(tabbed levels and such), however.

Ideally, there could be an option. I'd prefer a workspace-type thing.
Also, in Photoshop/CS3 apps, you can drag the "floating" windows to the side to "dock" them.

> Fancy Tools? - Are they really needed? Would people REALLY use separate types of brushes enough to justify the workload of adding them? Or are people happy with how tools are done in the offline editor? I plan to do little additions such as tile highlighting and such, though.

I doubt brushes are needed; there is really no point. However, I wold like to see a way to copy tiles (you normally select tiles, right click and drag while holding left mouse button, but my mouse can not support this ). Perhaps middle mouse button?

> Local loading? - I had an idea to allow Load Local, and Load Server. IE, being able to load levels from your computer, or load them from the server. The problem with local loading would be I could only load them from your Graal directory... I could probably have options that lets you specify your level directory. But either way I can't let you browse your files, so it will be restricted to one folder. Would you use it if you could only load levels from one folder?

It would be nice, but I don't really think it is necessary since it is so restricted. Plus, you're online anyway. Why not take advantage of it (meaning that a staff member can delete your level at any time )

> Extra Baggage - NPCs mainly... NPCs are a big part of levels, but they would also be very hard to implement. Should I bother with it? At the most, I could allow you to view/move them around... I don't think I'm going to worry about allowing you to edit them. So, are NPCs important enough?

YES, definitely. Think about it, there is no way your level editor could be used as any kind of replacement if it can't support NPCs. All you would have to do is show the image of the outline figure, and editing wouldn't be too hard, would it? I made one that did this once, but it wasn't too hard I don't think.

> Zooming? - I might be able to add a zooming system. AKA, zoom the level in and out. I expect this would be really helpful for those with low resolutions... I certainly think I can pull it off, and I think it will be a very useful system.

That should be nice, especially when dealing with things like cliffs.

Oh, of course I will have layers

I almost thought you forgot those ;o

manage as many layers as you'd like, the system will be very similar as well.

Is it possible to name them?

For example, you could do floor, sky, etc. I've never actually used layers; I don't get the point of them actually.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Menu, but with keyboard shortcuts.

I hope I can pull this off :P

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Ideally, there could be an option. I'd prefer a workspace-type thing.
Also, in Photoshop/CS3 apps, you can drag the "floating" windows to the side to "dock" them.

I don't think I'm going to allow it as an option. I think that would be way too much work designing two seperate GUI layouts. Hence why I'm listening everyone's opinions here.
Graal windows naturally dock, so no need to worry about that

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I doubt brushes are needed; there is really no point. However, I wold like to see a way to copy tiles (you normally select tiles, right click and drag while holding left mouse button, but my mouse can not support this ). Perhaps middle mouse button?

Hmm... well I'm definitely going to mimic the current controls in the offline editor. I do, however, plan to map things to a key+mouse click(for example, to find a tile I plan to allow you to hold "F" and click on a tile)... I could perhaps map the duplicate function to a key.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It would be nice, but I don't really think it is necessary since it is so restricted. Plus, you're online anyway. Why not take advantage of it (meaning that a staff member can delete your level at any time )

Perhaps, but you never know. People may not want to jump back and forth between an online editor and offline(like jumping between Photoshop and MSPaint). I forgot I'll also definitely have a function to save it locally.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

YES, definitely. Think about it, there is no way your level editor could be used as any kind of replacement if it can't support NPCs. All you would have to do is show the image of the outline figure, and editing wouldn't be too hard, would it? I made one that did this once, but it wasn't too hard I don't think.

I figured as much... editing isn't HARD, exactly, but it'll probably be the last thing I do.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

That should be nice, especially when dealing with things like cliffs.

HA! I MAKEZ MY OWN FLYING TECHNOLOGY!!!

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I almost thought you forgot those ;o

Never!

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Is it possible to name them?

For example, you could do floor, sky, etc. I've never actually used layers; I don't get the point of them actually.

Possibly... the layout of .nw in text format doesn't have anything like that in there(basically layers are determined by a single number, that's it). But... I don't see the harm in adding my own little tidbits in there. I don't think this will interfere with anything, as I believe Graal ignores anything that's not 'readable'. I'm not sure about this, and would need Stefan's confirmation.

As for the usefulness of layers... there are tons of possibilities, and a reason almost all map editors have layers. Layers themselves are not that useful, but layer+tileset transparency(which Graal does allow) is VERY useful. Imagine, instead of having different corner tiles for houses for each terrain(grass, black, cliff brown, water), simply have a corner house tile with a transparent corner... add the house roof tiles on the second layer(which display OVER the first layer), and tada, you've got house roof tiles that display correctly no matter where you place them. The same goes for other things like tree tops. Basically, it's like allowing multiple levels on top of each other, and with transparency, that's a powerful thing.

They would also be a lot more useful if you could change the way layers are displayed(over or under the player)... but doesn't seem Stefan has a lot of interest in that There are also a lot of way scripts could bend layers to work in their favor. Zero already demonstrated this with 'images' under the tiles, and I have pulled off some cool stuff with layers myself.

[Deas_Voice]

maybe you could make a buttom where u can change the tileset?
like "select tileset" -> pics2.png -> press ok
its so annoying to have a tiledef setup and suddenly a new unwanted tiledef comes with the level.. screws up my tile setup

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Deas_Voice

maybe you could make a buttom where u can change the tileset?
like "select tileset" -> pics2.png -> press ok
its so annoying to have a tiledef setup and suddenly a new unwanted tiledef comes with the level.. screws up my tile setup

I've suggested where you hit a button, and can use the tiledefs for any server in the list. You choose the server, and you are using all their tiledefs and addtiledef2s.

The only problems might be that some servers have a custom offline tileset so that they can use a 32-bit tileset online.

[DustyPorViva]

I was thinking of that... tiledefs are a sore thought right now, as I'm going to have to find out a way to manually find out the tiledefs set. I guess I'm going to have to dissect the tiledefs file. :/

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I was thinking of that... tiledefs are a sore thought right now, as I'm going to have to find out a way to manually find out the tiledefs set. I guess I'm going to have to dissect the tiledefs file. :/

Well, it's not that complex, is it?

Especially for a master like yourself *bows down*

[DustyPorViva]

rofl...

No, it's not that complex, but there is so much parsing and crap when making this stuff I'm tired of it I've gotta parse the predefined object files(actually, I don't! Ha, already did that in my last version!). I've gotta parse the tile data, parse the NPCs, gotta parse links, signs, gotta translate it back and save it. Just... I hate it

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

rofl...

No, it's not that complex, but there is so much parsing and crap when making this stuff I'm tired of it I've gotta parse the predefined object files(actually, I don't! Ha, already did that in my last version!). I've gotta parse the tile data, parse the NPCs, gotta parse links, signs, gotta translate it back and save it. Just... I hate it

You need Chompy.

[DustyPorViva]

Heh, I'm just tired of turning text into numbers. I'm lazy

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Heh, I'm just tired of turning text into numbers. I'm lazy

int( text );

no?

[Darklux]

The first thing that I expect of an good editor is to be offline =(((!

[Chompy]

Anyways, some support for'' fast functions like ctrl+c, ctrl+v, ctrl+s etc would be nice :o

Originally Posted by cbk1994

You need Chompy.

hehe

[Pimmeh]

Redo button?

[Deas_Voice]

Originally Posted by Pimmeh

Redo button?

YES

[xAzerothx]

Easier copy/paste.

[Deas_Voice]

Originally Posted by xAzerothx

Easier copy/paste.

err.. isent this easy? u want a dam buttom to copy&paste? rofl
ctrl+c = copy
ctrl+v = paste
lol

[trifle]

your making an editor?
well then, if you ask what I would like. Is a cusomizable one, with a system so you can change hotkeys if desired. The layout should be as easy as possible. Tools on the top or left side, and like other stuff on the right side.

[xAzerothx]

Originally Posted by Deas_Voice

err.. isent this easy? u want a dam buttom to copy&paste? rofl
ctrl+c = copy
ctrl+v = paste
lol

I tried that and it didn't work.

[Deas_Voice]

Originally Posted by xAzerothx

I tried that and it didn't work.

then u do wrong becuase i do it all the time lol!

[DustyPorViva]

Redo and shortcuts are already intended.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Deas_Voice

then u do wrong becuase i do it all the time lol!

Not on the level editor.

[DustyPorViva]

I copy and paste in the level editor ALL the time?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I copy and paste in the level editor ALL the time?

With the shortcuts? They don't work for me. Perhaps because I use visualization software to run Windows?

[DustyPorViva]

Ya, that's all I use are shortcuts. So ya, that's probably your problem.
Graal doesn't use the actual OS clipboard for copying/pasting tiles. It uses a built in system. IE, you can't copy tiles from one instance of a level editor and paste it into another instance(you can copy text from wordpad, then copy tiles from the editor and you won't lose your copied text). It's all done within the level editor itself... so that may be the problem.

I would propose that Stefan copy the tiles to the OS clipboard in the same format as they're saved for tiles(copy tiles, and then paste it in wordpad for example, and it would look like tiles do when you open an nw in wordpad) instead of using a built-in system, but you know that'll never happen.

[Pimmeh]

Hm, it would be nice to have (besides GS2 support afcourse) to have gmaps actually work? I hate those things for ****ing up when Im browsing through the map.