Next 2D Server?

[Crono]

Classic, ok graal's very first baby.

Ok so Graal 2001 came out sometime back in what I assume is 2001. It had new features like light effects, npc server, economy, etc.

Then came Graal 2002 which we now call Graal Kingdoms which introduced 3D terrain, a new body/head system, and wide array of weapons.

But what now? Sure some will say GRAAL3D LOL but I'm talking 2D. If you want to get picky a Graal 3D did exist before GK even came out so you can't really use 3D as an excuse.

When is the next 2D server going to be released? GK is showing it's age (its boring and ran out of it's freshness years ago) and G2k1 was ditched while Konidias is reviving it. Are there even any plans for a new 2D server? I sure hope so.

[Galdor]

well 1 thing at the time, germai.
should finish graal 3d first.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Galdor

well 1 thing at the time, germai.
should finish graal 3d first.

I'm pretty sure the people making 3D have nothing to do with 2D. By that I mean Stefan could still arrange for 2D staff.

[zell12]

This is the problem right here. Starting new projects before the previous are completed. Seems retarded for me.

[KuJi]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Classic, ok graal's very first baby.

Ok so Graal 2001 came out sometime back in what I assume is 2001. It had new features like light effects, npc server, economy, etc.

Then came Graal 2002 which we now call Graal Kingdoms which introduced 3D terrain, a new body/head system, and wide array of weapons.

But what now? Sure some will say GRAAL3D LOL but I'm talking 2D. If you want to get picky a Graal 3D did exist before GK even came out so you can't really use 3D as an excuse.

When is the next 2D server going to be released? GK is showing it's age (its boring and ran out of it's freshness years ago) and G2k1 was ditched while Konidias is reviving it. Are there even any plans for a new 2D server? I sure hope so.

Graal3D back then was more of a test, G3D now uses an entirely different engine...

[Tyhm]

You forgot Zone.
I dunno what Koni's doing with G2K1. I sure hope Classic can get the same treatment, but of course All Servers Are Rivals, so it probably won't.

[zell12]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

You forgot Zone.
I dunno what Koni's doing with G2K1. I sure hope Classic can get the same treatment, but of course All Servers Are Rivals, so it probably won't.

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...8&postcount=17

[WanDaMan]

I'm working on VS:C' in my spare time, although; I highly doubt it'll get finished (Levels - ofcourse! anything else... no) lol

Updates are being posted weekly in my signature.

[Twinny]

I've been working on playerworld1 for a while... got it in my head for a rpg style adventure with a sweet combat system..all mapped out in my head.

But seeing as how I suck, for the most part, at GS2: it will probably never come out .

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

You forgot Zone.
I dunno what Koni's doing with G2K1. I sure hope Classic can get the same treatment, but of course All Servers Are Rivals, so it probably won't.

Zone wasn't really made by Stefan and them. It was done by Angel and I think that Dell guy. Bloo Kat made the graphics. But then Zone went down and Stefan revived it with his re-scripting.

[KuJi]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Zone wasn't really made by Stefan and them. It was done by Angel and I think that Dell guy. Bloo Kat made the graphics. But then Zone went down and Stefan revived it with his re-scripting.

Someone screwed up the scripts, or deleted it.

I remember playing with Stefan when it was UC, only thing still active there now is the graphics.

Scripting has probally been all redone by Stefan and one of his globals =o

[Andy0687]

I had a Turn-Based server almost complete with Sephiroth before he got babylon.

The stuff i made for that server is seriously stuff of legend, it was almost perfect, but we didnt have the funds to finish it up and get it reviewed. It would probably topple the playerlist, of course, thats a biased opinion, who would like a FF style system on graal anyways

I always dreamed I would apply for gold tab if that was even possible :P

[SayianOozaru]

Funny, I think it was last night I sent Stefan a forum pm, giving him some ideas about a new gold server. Funny how others have been wanting the same.

[Eagle]

I been working on a little something since last Christmas.. Tons of ideas in my head, and some content. If I get done what I need to, I can get my cousin back to help me script. Or, well, him script. I can't.

I can always attempt to learn though, right? I have a few guys that said they'd help me out after too, but thats down the road.

[Tyhm]

I think we all have loads of ideas, but that's not what concerns me...what concerns me is that none of us have any incentive to cooperate on it. For every one of us posting here, there's at least 10 more who either can't or won't post - so there's a boatload of potential developers who'd love to have a server to work on. Even if you split it up, there's a ton of developers who want to make a Zelda clone and have lots of ideas...there's a ton of developers who want to make a Megaman clone and have lots of ideas...there's a ton of developers who want to make a racing game and have lots of ideas...there's a ton of developers who want to make a 3d server, a RPG, a platformer, a FPS, a River City Ransom clone, you name it. But for any given server there can only be one owner. And everyone else has to accept the fact that the one owner can shoot down their ideas and preempt their work without notice, reason, etc. That's point 1.
Point 2 - all these people make their own servers, with themselves as Owner And Final Say.
Point 3 - all these servers start hunting for staff. 90% tank because there aren't enough scripters willing to work under these conditions.
Point 4 - the remaining 10% fight tooth and nail to make the limited number of Graalians active play on THEIR server instead of their RIVAL's server.
Point 5 - we wind up with a few dozen servers that - if tied together - make a single decent world.

I dunno about you guys, but I'm not thrilled with the prospect of developing in such an environment. Don't get me wrong, I bought butcher paper just to organize the ideas I got for the platformer MMORPG I got in mind, and I'm convinced it'll be awesome if I can pull it off, but I can't pull it off. It requires too much more than Graal can give - not in terms of what Stefan can script, because that man can script anything - not in terms of what Unixmad can host, because he can host with the best of 'em - but in terms of what the community can support, and Another Playerworld With One Quest And Custom Ganis ain't it. Time was we saw that and said "Shoot, here, have another quest, have some baddies, I developed a castle and a playerhouse, and a town, and I've got some plot ideas, take, take!", now we're all "...I could do it better", and we all start from square one, spending three months to get to the point where we have the exact same thing, Another Playerworld With One Quest And New Custom Ganis That Nobody Else Can Have.

Sorry if I'm ranting, it infuriates me what Graal's become. It's not because it went pay, it's not because PWs blossomed outside of Classic, it's because Graal got as far as hosting PWs on an evenhanded basis and stopped. It got into new territory and went no further. It's the only game on the market where you can toss the serverop a few bucks and have your own world hosted, yet it uses guild-marketing to get developers. Seriously, "Looking for experienced NATs to build best server ever!~"? This is ridiculous...

[KuJi]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Point 3 - all these servers start hunting for staff. 90% tank because there aren't enough scripters willing to work under these conditions.

Reason why Graal X usually has Me as Owner ( I script everything ), and the Co-Manager as a really good GFXer. Then the rest will be gfxers, lat's, and ganis.

I usually rarely down an idea unless it totally is far from the main idea of the server ( in Graal X -- it's a non-realistic idea or too pk-centered of an idea ).

Or if we are not ready for it yet, in which it goes in the server ops for something to work on eventually when the time is to come.

All my staff have yet to quit on me, infact, I have staff that worked on old Graal X with me (2-3 years ago) that are now my head developers, co-manager's, lat admins etc. So yeah, most of my team stays loyal. If I was able to do GFX as well as scripting, I'd make the sickest servers ever .

o p.s. I'd help out with a zelda-styled server as long as it aims for an actual story line etc.. and zelda-styled as in "A link to the past" styled =o

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Classic, ok graal's very first baby.

Ok so Graal 2001 came out sometime back in what I assume is 2001. It had new features like light effects, npc server, economy, etc.

Ingenious. How did you come up with such a great guess?

Anyways, there are servers like zenkou that should be done and put on the classic list soon.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Ingenious. How did you come up with such a great guess?

Anyways, there are servers like zenkou that should be done and put on the classic list soon.

Graal 2002 was worked on in 2001 and still called 2002.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Zone wasn't really made by Stefan and them. It was done by Angel and I think that Dell guy. Bloo Kat made the graphics. But then Zone went down and Stefan revived it with his re-scripting.

blookat didnt ;o

blookat made the basic movement sprites which really sucked xD as far as i can remember

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Elk

blookat didnt ;o

blookat made the basic movement sprites which really sucked xD as far as i can remember

no he made the bodies im sure and possibly even the guns.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

In terms of what the community can support, and Another Playerworld With One Quest And Custom Ganis ain't it. Time was we saw that and said "Shoot, here, have another quest, have some baddies, I developed a castle and a playerhouse, and a town, and I've got some plot ideas, take, take!", now we're all "...I could do it better", and we all start from square one, spending three months to get to the point where we have the exact same thing, Another Playerworld With One Quest And New Custom Ganis That Nobody Else Can Have.

Sorry Tyhm, but this isn't the case for everyone. There are still people who play Graal who have active imaginations and will put this into a server, it just takes time and effort to keep staff motivated, which most people find quite hard to do.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

I think we all have loads of ideas, but that's not what concerns me...what concerns me is that none of us have any incentive to cooperate on it.

I agree with most of what you said, this is also a good point.

But this is especially a good point:

Time was we saw that and said "Shoot, here, have another quest, have some baddies, I developed a castle and a playerhouse, and a town, and I've got some plot ideas, take, take!", now we're all "...I could do it better", and we all start from square one, spending three months to get to the point where we have the exact same thing, Another Playerworld With One Quest And New Custom Ganis That Nobody Else Can Have.

Note people: I'm asking about the next cyberjouers 2D server (like classic, g2k1, g2k2, and kind of zone...KIND OF!). 3D is not even relevant here.

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by Rufus

it just takes time and effort to keep staff motivated, which most people find quite hard to do.

Only because it's an uphill battle. "Hey Fred, good job on that lizardon cave graphic! Now I don't want you to think about how all your work is instantly my property and you have no claim to it no matter what, nor how even if you tried to open your own world I could demand it be shut down for stealing what is now My work, but do you think you could get started on this next project over here...?"

When the servers have their own Newbie Income (newbies are joining their server instead of being stolen from Graal X, etc.) we won't have to worry about what server's "stealing" what players. If servers got a cut of each player upgrading on their server, playercount becomes irrelevant vis-a-vis upgradecount. Thus, Fred can make whatever server he wants - he can make an identical twin to his boss's server, it won't make a lick of difference because instead of everyone peeing in the tiny Graal Community Swimming Pool, everyone's peeing in the vast Internet Advertising Ocean.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by Gerami

no he made the bodies im sure and possibly even the guns.

He made much more than that as well.

[ryu_no_bishie]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Only because it's an uphill battle. "Hey Fred, good job on that lizardon cave graphic! Now I don't want you to think about how all your work is instantly my property and you have no claim to it no matter what, nor how even if you tried to open your own world I could demand it be shut down for stealing what is now My work, but do you think you could get started on this next project over here...?"

technicaly that little part of the agreement is an elastic, it wont hold up in court.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

newbies are joining their server instead of being stolen from Graal X, etc.

Oh, I had planned something similar to this for my server actually - advertising outside of Graal, it's a much better way of targeting then trying to steal existing players.

[Tyhm]

It's not encouraged though. As it stands, the administration isn't saying "Here's how to advertise, here - let us host your homepage, here's a template, here's how to bring in newbies" - so they may as well be saying "Here's how to steal players from UN, here's how to annoy the PWA into squelching 'competition' from within Graal's own microcosm"

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

It's not encouraged though. As it stands, the administration isn't saying "Here's how to advertise, here - let us host your homepage, here's a template, here's how to bring in newbies" - so they may as well be saying "Here's how to steal players from UN, here's how to annoy the PWA into squelching 'competition' from within Graal's own microcosm"

*shrugs* I don't think many people would want to pay to advertise for their server that they paid to make for people to then pay to play, no incentive what so ever, so I understand what you mean. However, if you want more of a chance of gaining new populous, that, to me seems the best idea.

[excaliber7388]

I'd love to restart DR, and take a more classic approach to it.
But I have a terrible network, and no RC.
I still believe the players have what it takes to make the best damn server out there.

[Crono]

Guys I'm talking about an official 2D graal server :[

[Tyhm]

Ah, I think we left Crono behind - we've been discussing this so long we've started skipping steps in the debate. Sorry, okay, recap:

: Official Graal 2D Server?
: Sweet!
: Wait, we need Stefan to make it "official".
: Well, I'm sure he's got time for one more!
: Naw, he's too busy on Kingdoms and 3D and the engine and mac tools and linux tools and scripted-RC and the logon server and flash games and the gralat system and synching things up with whatever updates to the website and the wiki and...
: Yeah yeah, we get it. Okay, why not have a player build the Official Server and then Stefan just waves the Magical Official Wand?
: My server should be the official one!
: No mine, mine's a million times cooler!
: Mine ftw!
: You see the problem.

So we've already concluded that if there will ever be an Official Graal 2D Server, it'll either be one that exists or doesn't exist, and either way it'll be player-built and Stefan-supported.
What should it be? Which should it be?

My money - the Newbie Server and/or the Hubworld. The Newbie Server would be at heart what Classic used to be - if you're a newbie, by default you start on The Newbie Server. Maybe you don't even see the server list. Simple, basic, straightforward, strong Zelda theme while studiously avoiding copyrights, heavy on the Tutorial Mission.
Hubworld would be what Graalympus was, but with warpgates. If you log on from Classic, you walk out of the Classic warpgate looking like your character does on Classic. If you run from there into the Kingdoms warpgate, you get transformed into what your character looks like on Kingdoms. If we ever get any Global Data Communication technology to allow it, it could also be the heart of a Global Quest - you beat everything on Classic and get a knicknack, which mixes with the knicknack from beating everything on UN to unlock a gate on Hubworld, when an ancient evil runs past, empties the vault, and books it onto Zone...where a quest suddenly activates to hunt him down, but he escapes to Maloria...etc. But that last part's my own pipe-dream: The Important Thing About Global Quests Is That it's up to each server whether or not they choose to honor the global strings from other servers. If Kingdoms doesn't want to participate, sure they can find out Billy beat everything on Classic, but they don't have to give him anything for it.

[Crono]

hub world makes me go ew :[

[Tyhm]

Oh. Kay?

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Guys I'm talking about an official 2D graal server :[

g2k1 if it doesnt die agin would be nice, idk if it would be worth paying for though.

::edit:: the hubworld idea seems nice but say if I wana play with my friend or someone tryed graal at my place and they dont wana go to the noob world and they wana go to era or something. it seems nice but i doubt it would work.

[Ak101]

What if a bunch of decent-players could pull off the Zelda-server idea and make it the "noob" world in which trials can roam around and actually play it and not worry about losing items etc.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Gerami

hub world makes me go ew :[

You just dont understand its genious complexety

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by zim5354

g2k1 if it doesnt die agin would be nice, idk if it would be worth paying for though.

::edit:: the hubworld idea seems nice but say if I wana play with my friend or someone tryed graal at my place and they dont wana go to the noob world and they wana go to era or something. it seems nice but i doubt it would work.

Ideally: Blend G2K1 and Classic. They were never distinct enough to allow for them both existing independantly (and I've long felt G2K1 was initially Antago's Classic, his attempt to prove Tyhm's a big doodie-head and given his druthers - and exclusive access to Stefan - he could make a MUCH better server), so why not just combine them? Two continents, one server. Two starting points, two starting quests, whatever.

As for whether NewbieWorld should be mandatory, and whether HubWorld should utterly replace the serverlist, it's debatable. I think it'd be spiffier if players hit Start and walk out of a warp on the Hubworld, then press F8 if they wanna skip the social aspect of walking through Hubworld and just get to Era...

Originally Posted by Ak101

What if a bunch of decent-players could pull off the Zelda-server idea and make it the "noob" world in which trials can roam around and actually play it and not worry about losing items etc.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Andy0687

You just dont understand its genious complexety

I dunno about Genius complexity, but thanks for your support.

I respect the thought that Graal could use another Official Genre instead of an Official Hallway. We're all looking at a blueprint of a mall, say - there's a Zelda store, a Better Zelda store, a Harvest Moon/Zelda store, a Matrix/Zelda store, a D&D Zelda store, a Star Wars store, a German Zelda store - I say all these Zelda stores should have a common (enclosed) hallway so people will actually meet up, instead of just being storefronts bordering the parking lot. And there should be an Intro Zelda Store, a main entrance for people who've never visited our Mall before.
But some people say what it really needs is another anchor store: A Metroid/Megaman store, a Contra/Metal Gear/Bionic Commando store, a Castlevania/Kid Icarus store, an Ice Climbers store, a Kirby/Bubble Bobble store, a Mario/Sonic the Hedgehog store, a Mario Kart/F-Zero store, etc. They're not wrong, it's just a question of priorities - I feel that while we'd all like to make a new direction for Graal (and we'd all like to have Stefan on staff building new script commands to make it possible, and we'd all like to manage said server, and we'd all like said server to be either Gold or Official or maybe even Stickied), I don't think it's going to solve player retention once and for all. Kingdoms and Zone were new directions too, once - then they bent towards the common denominator to try and draw people off similar servers. It's like politics, everyone gravitates towards the swing-voters in the center.

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by Ak101

What if a bunch of decent-players could pull off the Zelda-server idea and make it the "noob" world in which trials can roam around and actually play it and not worry about losing items etc.

It could be done really easy but I dont think anyone wants to because no one knows if Stefan would go for it.

I kinda get what your saying Tyhm like, a Noob world with maybe a Zelda theme with a short main quest that sort of introduces them to Graal. Once the main quest is done (Im talking semi short here nothing to long) they can go to the server browser (or the hub world) if they are P2P, if they are trails they stick around and do a few more quest and there data is saved (for a month at a time maybe?) or they could go to the classic servers and not have there data saved?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Ideally: Blend G2K1 and Classic. They were never distinct enough to allow for them both existing independantly (and I've long felt G2K1 was initially Antago's Classic, his attempt to prove Tyhm's a big doodie-head and given his druthers - and exclusive access to Stefan - he could make a MUCH better server), so why not just combine them? Two continents, one server. Two starting points, two starting quests, whatever.

Classic should be more quest based, while Graal2001 was always more economical based, Classic had guilds, Graal2001 had Kingdoms, they're completely different.

Combining the two would be weird as they seem to both have their own specific touches, or atleast, they did.

[Tyhm]

Focus on that They Did.
What's wrong with having two options for the same goal? You can mine 1000 gralats or you can purge Ninji Tower of lizardons. If you buy the katana before you win it, when you go to the tower they say "Thanks, someone else took care of it, nevermind." If you win the katana then go to buy it, they "just sold the last one to the Ninji, but thanks for your interest."

I might point out that Graal2001 had (global) guilds too, and Classic's gravitating towards a handfull of Super-guilds/nations anyway.