Allow players to object.

[pooper200000]

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center? I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community? Then if a player has an objection it can be dealt with while also allowing the help of peers and or staff and while this happened it could help prevent this issue from happening yet again? Yet another question I ask in my complete ignorance of issues. Would it be possible to create a court system in the forums where the players have authority or something of or in that forum? I believes that if they were to have the players report a post if they believe it is spam and 5 persons were to report a post it would be deleted if there reasons all agreed. Moderators then would simply be the "cops" of the forums who would simply deal with deleting the suggested posts and closing threads. Yet another of this one's unintelligent questions must not continue. Would it be allowable for the players to simply object to infractions or simply want to know the full reason for the moderators deleteion of their threads/posts? I would like to know how a little over 400 of my 1700 posts are considered spam. I have gone back and counted how many posts I would have if they were not deleted. Most importantly could they allow a thread /and or forums that is moderated by a player such as Sklyd or another player who is respected and on much such as Gerami/cronosaur who can moderate the forums the moderators are not allowed to view. I believe that many enjoy being able to take their anger out on staff without the staff's knowledge. The forum would only be moderated to remove links. There is nothing wrong with the staff being made fun of and the players could make fun of them so they would not personally attack them anywhere else. Many moderators would be protected or made fun of by players and it would relieve the players greatly. Lastly would it be possible for the players to object to the rules and have them changed. Any help on this including reading this post would be appreciated!
The stupid,
Supernanny

[Mykel]

We are seen as whiney children.

And yes, while some of us are, the mods should use their own maturity and intelligence to weed through the immature users and the mature ones who bring up valid points. It's not that hard.

But they continue to do it. That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

[Crono]

I think they made discussing the rules illegal, since so many of us complained about it. I mean it's not like it's a problem on other forums, just here. FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

Anyway, you can object to **** all you want. Just don't get yourself banned.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Gerami

I think they made discussing the rules illegal, since so many of us complained about it. I mean it's not like it's a problem on other forums, just here. FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

Anyway, you can object to **** all you want. Just don't get yourself banned.

Ok. Now explain why they think that so the player can attempt to make amends. The reasons are not so obvious to me.

Originally Posted by Mykel

We are seen as whiney children.

And yes, while some of us are, the mods should use their own maturity and intelligence to weed through the immature users and the mature ones who bring up valid points. It's not that hard.

But they continue to do it. That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

Explain why we are whiney children and how it can be fixed.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Ok. Now explain why they think that so the player can attempt to make amends. The reasons are not so obvious to me.

Very dumb rules sometimes, the whole "you're all 13" attitude, strict moderation, stupid infractions, etc. I think I'll stop there since I don't feel like getting banned for another week -_-. I just got back, come on.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Explain why we are whiney children and how it can be fixed.

A majority of us aren't. A lot of people just don't know how to voice a disagreement in a mature way. That happens on every forum.

There really isn't anyway that we, the players, can fix it. It doesn't matter how many mature, well-thought out threads we make about changes that we want, there will be people who make stupid ones.

The only change that can be made is by the mods. They have to realize that they can't punish everyone for a few stupid users. They have to use their own judgement, and treat the users how they deserved to be treated.

While some users deserved to be treated like they are children, others do not. It alienates them and in turn only results in more complaints. It's a cycle that wont stop until some changes are made.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Very dumb rules sometimes, the whole "you're all 13" attitude, strict moderation, stupid infractions, etc. I think I'll stop there since I don't feel like getting banned for another week -_-. I just got back, come on.

Ok you sure? I really want an explanation. Dumb rules such as? If they delete this and say support center than they are causing themselves more trouble anyway. They give us Your all 13 attitude I hav enever sinced that. All I have sensed is that they believe I am a stupid indiviadual and I can prove all but 2 of the staff wrong on that. Unixmad stefan sorry I can't prove you wrong. Your nice. Strict moderation is ok to an EXTENT! Stupid infractions? We can't tlak about those sorry this thread will not be deleted for that.

Originally Posted by Mykel

While some users deserved to be treated like they are children, others do not. It alienates them and in turn only results in more complaints. It's a cycle that wont stop until some changes are made.

What changes?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Ok you sure? I really want an explanation. Dumb rules such as?

I can't really say more. From my experience people have been upset for a while now, and it's simply ignored. Not only that but stupid decisions like suddenly adding the infraction system really took the piss out of some people.

The forums weren't so bad in 2005, but 2004 was the beginning of suckage and 2006 has just been worse. Whatever.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Gerami

I can't really say more. From my experience people have been upset for a while now, and it's simply ignored. Not only that but stupid decisions like suddenly adding the infraction system really took the piss out of some people.

The forums weren't so bad in 2005, but 2004 was the beginning of suckage and 2006 has just been worse. Whatever.

how would you suggest it be fixed.

[Minoc]

Paragraphs..

[Crono]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

how would you suggest it be fixed.

Lol is this like a public interview with the daddy of teh pluffy or what.

I'm probably the only person with this opinion but I think the infraction system should just be removed, some of the rules (wont point out which) need to be changed/removed, and spark should be brought back. :/

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Minoc

Paragraphs..

Don't answer with spam give a complete answer or not at all minoc. Not all users prefer to write in paragraphs and many would find that quite pointless such as I.

Originally Posted by Gerami

Lol is this like a public interview with the daddy of teh pluffy or what.

I'm probably the only person with this opinion but I think the infraction system should just be removed, some of the rules (wont point out which) need to be changed/removed, and spark should be brought back. :/

It is in a way. Please be somewhat less vague. I agree spark should be brought back but that would require staff to be bigger people than the players. I am not going to say it can't happen.

[excaliber7388]

This idea is brilliant!
Why didn't someone higher up think of this first?!?!
Supernanny, u rock

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

This idea is brilliant!
Why didn't someone higher up think of this first?!?!
Supernanny, u rock

thanks but post what you like and why.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

What changes?

Changes in the way the mods mod our forums. They have to mod on an individual basis.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Changes in the way the mods mod our forums. They have to mod on an individual basis.

explain the HOW!!! I know that many believe their should be changes but how can they be made how should they be made and who will do it? note they all have who in them

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center?

The support center is exactly that, for support, hence topics being closed with people asking for support that can not be given by just a regular player.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community?

Some issues are, especially those that are less personal such as http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=69918

I guess a FAQ could be stickied somewhere (although there are far too many stickies already) with all the common questions posted (to then be closed) so it's easier, rather then routing through the rules to see if you've got grounds for posting, or going through the process of creating a support ticket.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Would it be allowable for the players to simply object to infractions or simply want to know the full reason for the moderators deleteion of their threads/posts? I would like to know how a little over 400 of my 1700 posts are considered spam.

If you would like to know why your post/thread has been deleted, PM either Sam or Moonie, I know I have done and they both respond, although most of the time it's pretty obvious.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

I believe that many enjoy being able to take their anger out on staff without the staff's knowledge.

There is nothing wrong with the staff being made fun of and the players could make fun of them so they would not personally attack them anywhere else.

I really don't see the need in having a forum which allows harassment of staff, it's not needed and it's not nice, take it elsewhere or just grow up and let it go.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Would it be possible for the players to object to the rules and have them changed.

The rules could use a bit of refinement, but that's all and it is up to Unixmad really, it is after all his forum, "not ours" contrary to popular belief.

Originally Posted by Mykel

That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

explain the HOW!!! I know that many believe their should be changes but how can they be made how should they be made and who will do it? note they all have who in them

The How:

The changes can not be made unless moderators are open to the idea. Discussing the rules was never against the rules until people started making threads about it. If the threads are legit, there should be no problem with it. Such as this one, everyone has been very mature and has tossed around many ideas, but I still bet it's closed.

The only way for the changes to be made is for the moderators to realize that most of us don't disobey the rules because we have nothing better to do. We have made many threads about rules changes, and on many different occasions they have let the threads stay open and discussion continue, but never once has a super-mod or admin been open to the idea of actually changing rules.

The mods need to realize something very simple:

You can't expect the users of the forum to be open minded about every rule in the book if you yourself aren't equally open to the open discussion and debate of changing and editing rules, in a realistic way.


The only way to change is for the mods to start respecting the players. I realize they get a lot of disrespect thrown towards them, but there is no reason to punish everyone for it.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Rufus

The support center is exactly that, for support, hence topics being closed with people asking for support that can not be given by just a regular player.
Some issues are, especially those that are less personal such as http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=69918
I guess a FAQ could be stickied somewhere (although there are far too many stickies already) with all the common questions posted (to then be closed) so it's easier, rather then routing through the rules to see if you've got grounds for posting, or going through the process of creating a support ticket.
If you would like to know why your post/thread has been deleted, PM either Sam or Moonie, I know I have done and they both respond, although most of the time it's pretty obvious.
I really don't see the need in having a forum which allows harassment of staff, it's not needed and it's not nice, take it elsewhere or just grow up and let it go.
The rules could use a bit of refinement, but that's all and it is up to Unixmad really, it is after all his forum, "not ours" contrary to popular belief.
You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

I have recieved an infraction and a warning. Threads on forums can also be viewed by everyone which is almost always fine unless its an account issue. I have done this multiple times and have recieved no response while it has been about 15 to 25 posts at a time still no response. I don't have your skills with being able to tell whats wrong. Many people can't let things go and thats a way to let it all out. That could be the elsewhere. Unixmad is a kind minded person who I believe could allow some of this. I find it quite challenging to avoid spam. I also disapprove of the staff goading you into allowing them to ban you.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

It's very easy to avoid. But why should we avoid it if we disagree with it? Do you always just accept authority for the sole reasoning that it is authority? If you do, that's a terrible way to live.

[Rufus]

Pooper - Fix your post please, I have no idea what you're referring to.

Originally Posted by Mykel

It's very easy to avoid. But why should we avoid it if we disagree with it?

I have disagreed with a lot of actions by the moderators, and have told them, but I haven't done it in such a way it goes against the rules.

Originally Posted by Mykel

Do you always just accept authority for the sole reasoning that it is authority? If you do, that's a terrible way to live.

No I don't at all, I respect what people's jobs are and what they've been asked to do.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Pooper - Fix your post please, I have no idea what you're referring to.I have disagreed with a lot of actions by the moderators, and have told them, but I haven't done it in such a way it goes against the rules.No I don't at all, I respect what people's jobs are and what they've been asked to do.

Basically I said in context that their needs to e a new way to deal with out issues besides support center that we can all use.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I have disagreed with a lot of actions by the moderators, and have told them, but I haven't done it in such a way it goes against the rules.

Fair enough. However, over the course of a week, the users made 3-4 threads (if not more) discussing the rules and their unhappiness with them. Most of the posts were made in a mature fashion, and the mods even debated with us. It was nice.

And what resulted from that? A rule disallowing discussion of the rules and a stricter, more bold warning/infraction system that has skyrocketed the number of bans over the past few weeks.

I agree that everything should be handled in a mature way. However, we've tried that and things have only gotten worse. It's ridiculous.

No I don't at all, I respect what people's jobs are and what they've been asked to do.

That's good. We all should. However, they should respect us as well. Even the people who disagree with them. They respect the people who agree with them and side with them 100%, but the opposers are given little to no respect, regardless of wheather or not they disagree in a mature way.

[excaliber7388]

It would be cool if players could 'elect' fellow players for a moderator position.
Of course, someone would have to approve it. It just feels like there's no one up there supporting the players...the actual customers.
Also, they won't ever take customer complaints seriously, not until they're close to bankruptcy. =(

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

It would be cool if players could 'elect' fellow players for a moderator position.
Of course, someone would have to approve it. It just feels like there's no one up there supporting the players...the actual customers.
Also, they won't ever take customer complaints seriously, not until they're close to bankruptcy. =(

Who could set it up? We need to work this out with the staff's help otherwise nothing will get done.

[ryu_no_bishie]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center? I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community? Then if a player has an objection it can be dealt with while also allowing the help of peers and or staff and while this happened it could help prevent this issue from happening yet again? Yet another question I ask in my complete ignorance of issues. useless crap about a dumb idea for a court system and retarded suggestions that players should be allowed to bash staff when they arent allowed to bash anyone, so deleted for convienience .

i pretty much only agree with the top part of the post. staff simply delete topics that go against them simply because they want to burry all evidence that suggests they arent doing their job or abusing power, its very very pathetic, and i expect MUCH better from anyone with a coloured username. but if the high admins like stefan and unix dont care, then theres nothing to be done, at least, nothing that can be done without getting banned.

basicly if your so unhappy with the mods and admins here i suggest you leave graal, and create a website that explains how/why graal isnt worthy of anyones visit. because with currupt staff at every turn and high mods who dont give a damn i dont see any major changes in the future, so that leaves the legal option of boycotting graal.

[excaliber7388]

But...nothing will get done
I've pretty much given up, if they want to **** their game up like this, let them.
I'll ride this train till the end of the line.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by ryu_no_bishie

i pretty much only agree with the top part of the post. staff simply delete topics that go against them simply because they want to burry all evidence that suggests they arent doing their job or abusing power, its very very pathetic, and i expect MUCH better from anyone with a coloured username. but if the high admins like stefan and unix dont care, then theres nothing to be done, at least, nothing that can be done without getting banned.

basicly if your so unhappy with the mods and admins here i suggest you leave graal, and create a website that explains how/why graal isnt worthy of anyones visit. because with currupt staff at every turn and high mods who dont give a damn i dont see any major changes in the future, so that leaves the legal option of boycotting graal.

Im not unhappy yet. I am angered but not unhappy. I am addicted to this game. If I got banned on zone or someplace I would quit but otherwise I'm here for the long run and if I am I would like for it to be somewhat comfortable. Thus this thread

[Tyhm]

I have no idea what's going on here.

But I do have some general advice regarding administration - not targetted at anyone in particular, just a snippet from the olde staff charter that, to my knowledge, was never properly revoked...nor transferred off the Original Classic, so it's in a twilight zone, but I digress.

In the event of a corruption allegation, the accused administrator will be asked to explain their actions to a neutral tribunal, one which meets the approval of both parties. It will be generally accepted that this tribunal will not mislead the player in question, and so if the tribunal finds the administrator acted with good reason their judgement will stand, without the player in question necessarily learning the reasons behind it.

Wordy, and there was more about punishment for abusing the appelate court and limitations on how often an administrator could be put on the blocks, but it meant that in cases where "Why was my stuffs deleted?!?", the evidence would be reviewed by Someone and an explanation rendered.

The trouble, of course, was always Neutral Tribunals. Do you trust me to sit in judgement of Darlene? Does she? If I found her guilty, would anything happen? Would Ibonic work? Stefan and Unixmad certainly have the power, but do you trust them to fairly review your case? Do they have the time?
Who watches the watchmen?

We actually had judges once. Head19, I believe, same one used as Default RC. Horrible, ask Galen.

[HoudiniMan]

I was asked to comment on this, I didn't take the time to read it because I have a feeling it's about moderating procedures. These are handed down by unixmad, and unless he changes his mind, will not change.

If you feel your thread was deleted erroneously, forum PM a mod and ask if you can recreate it. I see many threads closed for simply going off track, and if you have a valid topic, you may be able to reopen it.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

I'm not really allowed to discuss this but let's just say mine were stupid and soley based on the moderator's judgement rather than using common sense they took a worst case definition for everything.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Gerami

I'm not really allowed to discuss this but let's just say mine were stupid and soley based on the moderator's judgement rather than using common sense they took a worst case definition for everything.

Yo tambien

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Don't answer with spam give a complete answer or not at all minoc. Not all users prefer to write in paragraphs and many would find that quite pointless such as I.

Paragraphs make it easier to read. Is hitting ENTER a couple of times too hard?

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I was asked to comment on this, I didn't take the time to read it because I have a feeling it's about moderating procedures. These are handed down by unixmad, and unless he changes his mind, will not change.

If you feel your thread was deleted erroneously, forum PM a mod and ask if you can recreate it. I see many threads closed for simply going off track, and if you have a valid topic, you may be able to reopen it.

Generally the mods will simply say that the thread was a fire fight and recreating it would be illegal. I only have one word to say "comprimise"

[Crono]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

"comprimise"

And I also have one word. compromise

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Gerami

And I also have one word. compromise

me them both or brocoli?

[bgumeny]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center? I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community? Then if a player has an objection it can be dealt with while also allowing the help of peers and or staff and while this happened it could help prevent this issue from happening yet again? Yet another question I ask in my complete ignorance of issues. Would it be possible to create a court system in the forums where the players have authority or something of or in that forum? I believes that if they were to have the players report a post if they believe it is spam and 5 persons were to report a post it would be deleted if there reasons all agreed. Moderators then would simply be the "cops" of the forums who would simply deal with deleting the suggested posts and closing threads.

This would be a very inefficient and overall poor way to moderate a forum. People who are well-liked or well-known could get away with things that other people couldn't, because all the well-known and older players could gang up on the newer people and get all of their posts deleted.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Yet another of this one's unintelligent questions must not continue. Would it be allowable for the players to simply object to infractions or simply want to know the full reason for the moderators deleteion of their threads/posts?

I agree with this idea, it seems fair but it would also take a long time. People already complain about how long support tickets take, imagine if staff had to take time to review complaints about every deleted post?.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

I would like to know how a little over 400 of my 1700 posts are considered spam. I have gone back and counted how many posts I would have if they were not deleted.

Wow, I am amazed that 1) you took the time to go through all your posts like that and 2) you've had 400 posts deleted.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Most importantly could they allow a thread /and or forums that is moderated by a player such as Sklyd or another player who is respected and on much such as Gerami/cronosaur who can moderate the forums the moderators are not allowed to view. I believe that many enjoy being able to take their anger out on staff without the staff's knowledge. The forum would only be moderated to remove links. There is nothing wrong with the staff being made fun of and the players could make fun of them so they would not personally attack them anywhere else. Many moderators would be protected or made fun of by players and it would relieve the players greatly.

You could create your own forum, similar to the 'other' forum, and just PM or AIM people about it. Then everyone could get together and complain about these forums in peace and without moderation, and you could be in charge and delete everyone's posts that you thought were spam or complained about how you ran your forum.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Don't answer with spam give a complete answer or not at all minoc. Not all users prefer to write in paragraphs and many would find that quite pointless such as I.

Not all users may prefer to write in Paragraphs, but it makes your posts far more easy to read and makes your complaints much more credible when they are well formed. Spam is, by definition, a post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand (or a processed, canned meat ), just because you disagree with what he is saying does not mean its spam. You are complaining in this post about the way mods are behaving and yet you are reacting pretty strictly towards any negative criticism, and would probably delete said negative posts if you had the ability.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by bgumeny

This would be a very inefficient and overall poor way to moderate a forum. People who are well-liked or well-known could get away with things that other people couldn't, because all the well-known and older players could gang up on the newer people and get all of their posts deleted. I agree with this idea, it seems fair but it would also take a long time. People already complain about how long support tickets take, imagine if staff had to take time to review complaints about every deleted post?.
Wow, I am amazed that 1) you took the time to go through all your posts like that and 2) you've had 400 posts deleted.You could create your own forum, similar to the 'other' forum, and just PM or AIM people about it. Then everyone could get together and complain about these forums in peace and without moderation, and you could be in charge and delete everyone's posts that you thought were spam or complained about how you ran your forum. Not all users may prefer to write in Paragraphs, but it makes your posts far more easy to read and makes your complaints much more credible when they are well formed. Spam is, by definition, a post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand (or a processed, canned meat ), just because you disagree with what he is saying does not mean its spam. You are complaining in this post about the way mods are behaving and yet you are reacting pretty strictly towards any negative criticism, and would probably delete said negative posts if you had the ability.

I have not and would not delete negative posts.

[bgumeny]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Pooper - Fix your post please, I have no idea what you're referring to.

I gave up on trying to understand what he is referring to a long time ago. It is quote difficult. Pooper if you want your threads to be taken more seriously you need to make them look legitimate.

Originally Posted by pooper200000

I have not and would not delete negative posts.

You say that now, but that is easy to say. I'm sure most cadets just entering the Police Academy say they will not use their power for personal gain. It goes back to that old saying, "power corrupts".

Why have you all of a sudden turned into a big anti-moderation conspiracy theorist anyway? 75% of your posts I've seen recently have been whining and complaining about things. Sure they're not perfect, and you may not agree with what they do, but they do a good job when you realize that all they are doing is following what their boss tells them.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by bgumeny

I gave up on trying to understand what he is referring to a long time ago. It is quote difficult. Pooper if you want your threads to be taken more seriously you need to make them look legitimate.
You say that now, but that is easy to say. I'm sure most cadets just entering the Police Academy say they will not use their power for personal gain. It goes back to that old saying, "power corrupts". Why have you all of a sudden turned into a big anti-moderation conspiracy theorist anyway? 75% of your posts I've seen recently have been whining and complaining about things. Sure they're not perfect, and you may not agree with what they do, but they do a good job when you realize that all they are doing is following what their boss tells them.

Thats understood that they are doing there job. I have suddenly taken an interest since several p2p's have quit because of issues with the staff not attempting to do the most great job that they can. I do not argue. I understand unixmad makes the rules. I think that there could be a better arrangement to fix some issues that have become seeable from my point of view.