Hmmm, perhaps this can be better organized...

[Tyhm]

Just spitballing here, this might not even be possible...
But as I see it, we've got a lot of worlds covering the same ground. Every server makes a system NPC from scratch, makes a tileset from scratch, makes new ganis from scratch...
...and ultimately wind up making the same damn thing...
...would things get done faster if everyone was cooperating?
It's a lofty goal, but here's the theory-
Everyone chips in and works on the same damn Generic System NPC. A bad example, but let's pretend nobody has one and we all have to make one.
Someone focuses on movement, someone focuses on hit detection, etcetera...
Someone else goes back over, moves the static values in Movement to Constant Float/Short numbers (instead of x-0.5, it's x-XOFFSET) so it'll work with their Massive Ganis too...
Ultimately they all wind up with a system NPC that, not only can they share, they can offer it to starting out playerworlds too and save them the quagmire of Developing A Scripted System...plus, if there's a change or an update to the scripting engine, it only needs to get updated once. Classic uses GenericSys v1.0, Era updates it to GenericSys v1.1, Maloria likes it and uses v1.1, Classic decides to keep with v1.0...

And another thing. Assuming my information's correct, why do we even weigh down the servers with distributing graphics? I mean hell, probably the vast majority of the files are duplicated amongst the servers...at least those using the same ganis...I say move all of the downloads to load-screen "patches", push 'em onto a parallel server, and just alias all the duplicates...save space, save overhead, save lag...plus it'd make a simple registry for people who want to say "Hey, that was my tileset!" - who uploaded it first? Exactly.

[Demisis_P2P]

Yeah but servers are competing for players. That means that each server wants to be unique and offer something better than the others, not just offer the same thing just because it's more convenient.

It's a good idea in theory, but not really practical.

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Just spitballing here, this might not even be possible...
But as I see it, we've got a lot of worlds covering the same ground. Every server makes a system NPC from scratch, makes a tileset from scratch, makes new ganis from scratch...
...and ultimately wind up making the same damn thing...
...would things get done faster if everyone was cooperating?
It's a lofty goal, but here's the theory-
Everyone chips in and works on the same damn Generic System NPC. A bad example, but let's pretend nobody has one and we all have to make one.
Someone focuses on movement, someone focuses on hit detection, etcetera...
Someone else goes back over, moves the static values in Movement to Constant Float/Short numbers (instead of x-0.5, it's x-XOFFSET) so it'll work with their Massive Ganis too...
Ultimately they all wind up with a system NPC that, not only can they share, they can offer it to starting out playerworlds too and save them the quagmire of Developing A Scripted System...plus, if there's a change or an update to the scripting engine, it only needs to get updated once. Classic uses GenericSys v1.0, Era updates it to GenericSys v1.1, Maloria likes it and uses v1.1, Classic decides to keep with v1.0...

And another thing. Assuming my information's correct, why do we even weigh down the servers with distributing graphics? I mean hell, probably the vast majority of the files are duplicated amongst the servers...at least those using the same ganis...I say move all of the downloads to load-screen "patches", push 'em onto a parallel server, and just alias all the duplicates...save space, save overhead, save lag...plus it'd make a simple registry for people who want to say "Hey, that was my tileset!" - who uploaded it first? Exactly.

Depends on what you view as the same, I view Zodiac is a poor Maloria, Npulse (current) as UN etc. Anyway more crap PWs will come out if people do the work for them.

[KuJi]

A lot of servers are bought just for them to play around and have fun, majority are not for seriousness.

My own server I worked on almost 24/7 throughout the summer, and I haven't been doing much now because I want to know that my work throughout the summer was worth it (awaiting hosting tab?).. so yeah.

[Tyhm]

Well, what if there can only be one server of each genre?
Would it really be better if there were only one future server using the tall ganis, overhead view, MMORPG, guild-based? "But I want to make one too, and I don't wanna work for Tyhm 'cuz he's a big poo-head!" - do you say Tough, there can be only one? Do you say Okay, but yours can't be guild-based? Do you say Okay, there's always room for one more? There's the core problem.
And what happens when Tyhm's server flounders and flops? Are his files free game? Only to the people he cares to share with? Does he maintain ownership of the files for the server he was paying for? What if my LAT Admin, let's call him Shawn, wants to start his own server with the same files? Is he allowed to?

Important questions! Weigh in now!

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Well, what if there can only be one server of each genre?
Would it really be better if there were only one future server using the tall ganis, overhead view, MMORPG, guild-based? "But I want to make one too, and I don't wanna work for Tyhm 'cuz he's a big poo-head!" - do you say Tough, there can be only one? Do you say Okay, but yours can't be guild-based? Do you say Okay, there's always room for one more? There's the core problem.
And what happens when Tyhm's server flounders and flops? Are his files free game? Only to the people he cares to share with? Does he maintain ownership of the files for the server he was paying for? What if my LAT Admin, let's call him Shawn, wants to start his own server with the same files? Is he allowed to?

Important questions! Weigh in now!

I say if there uploaded onto your server first (You or a staff member made them.) They are yours untill the server dies then the staff member who made them has the right to do with them what they want.

[KuJi]

You can't limit types of servers.. if they pay.. let them do what they will?

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

Yeah but servers are competing for players. That means that each server wants to be unique and offer something better than the others, not just offer the same thing just because it's more convenient.

It's a good idea in theory, but not really practical.

Im not sure if this post just got skipped over but id like to add more emphasis onto the point.

Someone who buys a server and is ideally dreaming of a classic tab slot for their server, is unlikely to want to share his or her systems with any other server, and give them more leverage in taking their spot by having things done that they initially created.

[Tyhm]

Shouldn't it be May the best server win?
Say, 5 servers get together to make better ganis, they share the "copyright". Nobody else gets to use it for like a solid year, just the people who worked on it...afterwards, c'mon, you gotta share. Where would we be if Classic never shared any of their ganis, graphics, tilesets, sounds, midis, maps, weapons...?
So after a year, there's the really good server made around those ganis - a really good future server, a really good western server, a really good medeval server, a really good stoneage server, a really good modern rpg...then somebody uses those ganis to make a jump-and-run a year later. Does it matter that they're using the same ganis? Is it 100% imperative that no two servers use the same graphics for anything ever?

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Shouldn't it be May the best server win?
Say, 5 servers get together to make better ganis, they share the "copyright". Nobody else gets to use it for like a solid year, just the people who worked on it...afterwards, c'mon, you gotta share. Where would we be if Classic never shared any of their ganis, graphics, tilesets, sounds, midis, maps, weapons...?
So after a year, there's the really good server made around those ganis - a really good future server, a really good western server, a really good medeval server, a really good stoneage server, a really good modern rpg...then somebody uses those ganis to make a jump-and-run a year later. Does it matter that they're using the same ganis? Is it 100% imperative that no two servers use the same graphics for anything ever?

I doubt this is the point so much as it does actually cost 100 dollars for a year for a playerworld and most people who open a playerworld (with the exception of some, or a few i dunno) dont essentially have the spare cash, or cash of their own, so this is a small dream for them.

Classic was different in that it was an official project at one time, maintained by Graal Online. When that sort of server depreciates, its content should be made public domain to improve the overall quality of the game (which is what happened).

If only one server of each type is allowed on the classic list (Which may or may not be the case now that we see Zodiac vs Maloria and possible Valikorlia sneaking in), if it is the case then everyone working togather on "Public Domain stuff" wouldnt matter because the one good server that got it first, goes up, the rest who use it, idle around waiting for a possible chance, wasting future money, and just generally irritating them.

[Tyhm]

well, then clearly (to my insomnia-addled mind at least) there can't be a limit to how many Similar servers there are. There can be two servers about ninjas verses pirates in space. Then is the difference one has better graphics because they don't share? That's not how RPGMaker worked.
I figure the key is Friendly Competition. Maybe I'm dreaming a little too lofty that two directly competing servers would share Anything - maybe if there's ever to be a common Starter's Kit it'll have to be by the GST, and if there's ever gonna be shared graphics it'll be from worlds partnered by virtue of being in utterly different markets - weird, but possible. I forget where I'm going with this, I'm tired...I get why people jealously guard their scripts, why they'd rather see other servers fail than suceed to try and steal their customers...maybe the key is to let each server get their own customers instead of sharing the same Graalian Umbrella...like in the skinnable client thread...or maybe people just need to learn there's plenty of niches to go around...or maybe the PWA need the authority and resources to smack such PWs that, seeing another PW get a better playercount, try too closely to emulate them...maybe force PWs to either stick with their registered genres or fold...

[killerogue]

I simply agree with Tyhm's ideas. They are sound to me.

[konidias]

I don't think it's necessary to force playerworlds to share scripts. I also think it would be a joke to be able to use content that someone made after they left that wasn't used. If I saw some ***** using my Oasis graphics on his playerworld I'd be outraged.

I think the scripted movement/hit detection/basic stuff would be nice though. It would be nice if it just came with the server rental and was scripted by Stefan or someone close to Stefan so that it came out as efficient and close to the default Graal as possible. It would have helped loads with my 2k1 rebuild. But playerworlds shouldn't have to share, and shouldn't share content at all. Like others have said, classic and 2k1 were official graal servers which kind of aged and lost customers so their content was free for public use.

Really it's up to the manager to decide what to do with the server content should the server fail or die. I definitely don't agree with playerworlds sharing. It's nice to dream about everyone working together for the benefit of Graal/the players, but in reality, everyone is competing with eachother and the last thing I want to do is go and help out a competing server. Especially when it's involving complex scripts that the server manager could never make or find anyone to make for them. Those scripts belong to MY server and that's what makes servers unique.

How far would the sharing go? Sharing graphics? Levels? Ganis? Sound effects? It would get to the point where instead of having 100 private servers that aren't going to make it, we'll have 100 public servers that are all clones of eachother and suck. No thanks!

[Tyhm]

What if it was a ***** that helped you develop said graphics though?

I like how you've seperated the issues for us:
Sharing graphics? Only works if they're non-competing servers, and non-competing servers wouldn't have similar share-able graphics (unless one has Lizardons and the other has Cyber-Lizardons); thus, graphics should be server-protected, and tracked by first uploaded to better resolve PW disputes.
Sharing levels? No, two worlds have no business having the same terrain. Again, I could see a Future Space server having a world that looks like, say, Graal Classic but wherein the water has turned to lava and the houses are in ruin...but they wouldn't be helping each other develop graphics so much as the former getting permission from the latter.
Sharing ganis? Really, this one could work - all it requires is that both servers have the same Size of graphics. But if someone's bent on This is my work, nobody gets to share it - only Bomy Island people get to look this cool - that's fine too, and it should go by first uploaded copyright.
Sound effects should be shared, I think. A bomb going off is a bomb going off no matter the setting; bowling pins fall just as loudly in the medeval world of Valkorlia as they do in Zone. Besides, it'd cut down on the overhead.
Music also could be shared, but we run into the Competing Server issue again - if someone makes a nice Brave Sir Robin/Troubador sounding flutey song, it's going to wind up on the competing medeval servers and the future worlds won't have any use for it. So I suppose this too must be First Upload, though of course the creator has the right to sell/share their music to/with however many worlds they choose.
The servers themselves would be free to share with whichever other servers they like; if someone's little brother's starting a server, sure, you can use my ganis and gani-graphics while you figure out the editor. If the Hubworld ever gets started, sure, you can use our ganis and tiledefs for the area around our gate, please do.

Anyone know if the Download Patch idea would work though? I mean, it'd make on-the-fly development a little...well, different, I don't think Worse, if you have to download all the graphics that've been changed on that server since your last Patch...then when the LAT uploads a new quest while you're on, it could either download from the levels-server same as always, or as you enter the door "New Patch required, one moment please - " lock you in Loading Between Levels for half a second while it downloads BomyIsland Patch 2006.10.31.14.42.15 from the web server, then you can play unimpeded...

[PrinceDark]

I'm all for seeing dead playerworlds content being used. I wouldn't mind if the End of Ages content was being used by a group of skilled developers since mostly all of us left the project and Graal.

[Tyhm]

Hmmm, so should there be a Graal.Net thrift-shop/dumpster, where people can root through stuff submitted by the last staffers of dead PWs? Should content-producers maintain ownership of what they made, regardless of the will of the PW owner? That's shades of old Orange Eyes, He Who Must Not Be Named - "Use any of my materials and I'll sue!" Should we assume that anyone submitting material to a PW agrees to a nonexclusive irrevocable copyright - You can't tell the PW not to use it, but the PW can't tell you not to share it? Really, if (random example, I don't like using "Mr. A and Mr. B" examples) Zero33 submits a truly awesome head to G2K1, then the Delteria people ask him if they can use it - he says yes, G2K1 says no - should he or shouldn't he be able to share it?
Likewise, if Com013 works on a dying server (we'll call it Tyranus), makes a bunch of levels, then there's a conflagration of admins and that specific server dies, should he be able to open a clone under a different administration? Should he be allowed to upload it to Graal.net for others to revive?

I might be overthinking this one, but I'd hate to see Good content go to rot just because the various owners of it can't see eye-to-eye...and every day another PW has to struggle through the hatchling phase is another day they could be making Graal a better place.

[konidias]

Honestly I think this is all nonsense. Leave the playerworlds be. If you want content that can be shared, have the global teams make stuff for everyone's use. There isn't any reason to question whether or not it's okay to take content from someone or some dead server. It shouldn't be allowed.

Classic is a different story. It was a main Graal server and the classic stuff was used to let people have something to work with. Scavenging dead playerworlds for stuff just seems really crappy to me. It seems like if some playerworld team is so bad that they need to take things from other servers, then why do they even deserve to run a server with decent content?

[Tyhm]

Fair enough - so there should be a default toolkit to work with, and scavenging dead servers against said server's owner's wishes is out. The question of Can the dead server's staff bring their work with them when they move onto another server remains...I seem to recall there being some controversy over that once, one server stole another server's graphics, well no, the new server was run by the former graphics head of the old server and they're his graphics...a policy would be useful for the next time it happens.

And then there's the question of collaborations, and who owns the resulting work.

[Curt1zzle]

Tyhm smokes crack.

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by Curt1zzle

Tyhm smokes crack.

Free based coke is my bet.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by zim5354

Free based coke is my bet.

That's what crack is.

[Lord Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by PrinceDark

I'm all for seeing dead playerworlds content being used. I wouldn't mind if the End of Ages content was being used by a group of skilled developers since mostly all of us left the project and Graal.

Yeah I agree, I think it could be extremely beneficial if a dead server just gave up it's material to another (Justified by whichever server could use the content better).

That whole sharing scripts between active servers thing though, that's where I become a little skeptical.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

The question of Can the dead server's staff bring their work with them when they move onto another server remains...

Again, only if the manager allows it. The staff should understand that whatever they make for the server is going to belong to the manager as they are working for the manager.

I think it's kind of underhanded to make something specifically for a manager to use on a specific server and then that server fails so you just take your stuff and give it to someone else. Once you've given the work to a specific manager, it's up to the manager to decide what to do with it. Not you. What if the manager decides 6 months later that the playerworld is going to be re-opened? Now content that was supposed to be used for that playerworld is being used elsewhere already. I don't like it.

I believe the manager of the playerworld should have full and total control of any and all content that is uploaded to the server. If the developers don't want to do that, then maybe they shouldn't work for that person. I just think it's hard enough getting a good dev team together without having to worry about them leaving and taking their stuff with them to hand out to other servers.

It's too hard to draw out lines in the sand for general rules... Each case is specific and requires different ruling. If you say it's okay for staff to take their work off dead servers... is it okay to take their work off live ones? What if they want to quit the server they are working for and help another one by giving the other one all their work for the previous playerworld? Technically it would be "helping" and "sharing" like you've mentioned, but it would be hurting the previous playerworld as they lost a staff member + all that contributed content is now in the hands of a rival playerworld.

[Tyhm]

's a good point. Mind, I wasn't trying to push a specific agenda; I'd like to see more cooperation, but how that happens is subject to debate. Besides, if Dead Servers are fair game, it might encourage underhanded and disenchanted developers to kill the server so they can get their stuff back.

Should they be allowed to rebuild a similar thing if they work for another server? I doubt they could be prevented from so doing, and regardless such a case enters the dangerous territory of Intellectual Copyright - nobody else can make a superhero server 'cause I thought of it first.

Should servers be given monopoly over their proscribed genre? Would it be better/worse if, when each PW is registered, they go on a big registry:
GhostPirateOnline - Pirate MMORPG
Classic - Zelda 3 adaptation
Zone - Future Matrix World
Bungee - Bubble Bobble adaptation
, and then when you want to make your own Zelda 3 Adaptation you're told "Nope, already got one a them?"

I think mostly my question is, when you've got two small teams who each want to make a practically identical server - particularly when neither team's big enough to make it on their own - how do you encourage them to team up? If they both make one world, who's the manager? If they're co-managers, how could disputes best be resolved?