Questions and Concerns

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kuza

Am I the only person who doesn't want player kings/queens/royalty?

Yes.

The King used to act as unifying force behind the kingdom, an event organizer, and a roleplaying facilitator. While you can argue that there were some bad kings, the fact that there were good kings who made the game so good...

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Kuza

Am I the only person who doesn't want player kings/queens/royalty?

I'm sure you're not alone. It's just that most people aren't sure that my plan will work either. So it's up in the air right now.

Really I'm not 100% sure it will work myself. But I feel that it's worth a shot, or else I'd play it safe and not change anything. But obviously I'm changing many things with the server to try and improve them, so it's not surprising that I'd take a risk with kingdoms.

[Kuza]

The King used to act as unifying force behind the kingdom, an event organizer, and a roleplaying facilitator. While you can argue that there were some bad kings, the fact that there were good kings who made the game so good...

With the right amount of NPC programming this could properly be done. Tell me what the difference between an NPC king and a player king is?

For me, it's the fact an NPC king is pre-programmed to make certain decisions and the player king can make any decision... even the wrong ones. (e.g. the destruction of the old kingdoms)

Really I'm not 100% sure it will work myself. But I feel that it's worth a shot, or else I'd play it safe and not change anything. But obviously I'm changing many things with the server to try and improve them, so it's not surprising that I'd take a risk with kingdoms.

Kingdoms are not vital to the success of Graal2001. It's merely a fun option. Being able to trade, earn gralats and collectibles is. That's what brought people back. Competition amongst other players.

Maybe it's just me thinking this... but kingdoms sort of coincides with the economy-based Graal2001. Whilst roleplaying is very fun... metaphorically speaking , it's sort of like looking at a plate of food; scrambled eggs, bacon, gravy and tater tots. It's there but it doesn't fit.

If kingdoms are implemented it should be done right. I think everyone would agree with that statement. And with a little time and tinkering I am sure it will fit perfectly into the server.

Edit: I am not Konidias. The views and opinions in this thread do not reflect those of everyone in this thread.

[ViCtOrEhEhEh]

Listen to the players.

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by Kuza

With the right amount of NPC programming this could properly be done. Tell me what the difference between an NPC king and a player king is?

An NPC king cannot be anywhere near as dynamic as a player king can.

Originally Posted by Kuza

For me, it's the fact an NPC king is pre-programmed to make certain decisions and the player king can make any decision... even the wrong ones. (e.g. the destruction of the old kingdoms)

Eh, you are willing to throw away, again, more gameplay just because of a couple of mistakes?

Originally Posted by Kuza

Kingdoms are not vital to the success of Graal2001.

Why not? They were a part of the gameplay and the environment.

Originally Posted by Kuza

It's merely a fun option.

Originally Posted by Kuza

Being able to trade, earn gralats and collectibles is. That's what brought people back. Competition amongst other players.

Joining a kingdom is also competition.

Originally Posted by Kuza

Maybe it's just me thinking this... but kingdoms sort of coincides with the economy-based Graal2001. Whilst roleplaying is very fun... metaphorically speaking , it's sort of like looking at a plate of food; scrambled eggs, bacon, gravy and tater tots. It's there but it doesn't fit.

Most of Graal does not 'fit', but that does not stop it being successful.

Originally Posted by Kuza

If kingdoms are implemented it should be done right. I think everyone would agree with that statement. And with a little time and tinkering I am sure it will fit perfectly into the server.

But your idea of 'right' is having NPCs make decisions! That is ruling out half of the idea of having kingdoms. Note 'king' in the word 'kingdom'.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by ViCtOrEhEhEh

Listen to the players.

Why? It is his server that he and others are making. He should make it the way that he likes it. There are going to be people that dislike it no matter what, so why put your effort and money into something that you don't?

[Googi]

Originally Posted by konidias

Googi, I'm creating a semi-realistic npc king... not complete and total artificial intelligence. Like I said, it can have emotion and personality, but you can't have complicated conversations with it. All aimbots are, are simply phrase generators that use keywords as their trigger action. You say "cheese" or something and it picks a phrase based on that keyword and spits it back at you. If you put something in the form of a question, it will try to use the keywords to answer.

Yeah okay, so how much of this have you actually scripted?

[Loriel]

While I refuse to take a position in this debate, I will show that your argument is not decisive and based on flawed assumptions!

Originally Posted by Kuza

With the right amount of NPC programming this could properly be done.

With the right amount of NPC programming we can have awesome ingame 3d engines and AIs that replace all staff and produce awesome new content and write new scripts themselves!

This, in itself, is not a convincing argument. The amount of programming is not the question, but rather the finesse and design required.

Tell me what the difference between an NPC king and a player king is?

Why do we have people in charge of things and not NPCs? Why are people necessary over programmed behaviour? Certainly companies would be run more efficiently if they were managed by computers and not people, and a computer teaching children is way awesomer than an actual teacher. And if the parliament was replaced by a deterministic program, there would be way less chaos in politics! While we are at it, let's replace Moonie with a php script that filters illegal posts before they are even posted!

For me, it's the fact an NPC king is pre-programmed to make certain decisions and the player king can make any decision... even the wrong ones. (e.g. the destruction of the old kingdoms)

The NPC king, however, will fail to make certain important decisions, because it lacks the ability to even consider them, which is going to be as fatal as a player king making the wrong decisions. Both can be counteracted by having staff take over their tasks and overriding their decisions, but that makes the kingdom concept way less interesting.

In a way, it is more damaging because the NPC king lacks the ability to advance the development of his kingdom, and is limited to fairly simple decisions that are based on actual simple game mechanics.

Kingdoms are not vital to the success of Graal2001.

This discussion is not about the necessity of kingdoms. Whether we need any is beyond its scope, and everybody agrees that they need to be done right. Consider making a separate thread for this question.

[konidias]

Right now Kings are not my top priority, but when we get around to working on them, I will try my best to design the kings to exceed most of your expectations. That's all I can really say about the issue.

Any other questions or concerns then?

[Googi]

Originally Posted by konidias

Right now Kings are not my top priority, but when we get around to working on them, I will try my best to design the kings to exceed most of your expectations. That's all I can really say about the issue.

In other words, you think you can script them because you haven't actually tried to.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by konidias

Right now Kings are not my top priority, but when we get around to working on them, I will try my best to design the kings to exceed most of your expectations. That's all I can really say about the issue.

How the hell are you going to expect kingdoms to work with an NPC king?

Any other questions or concerns then?

Refer to above.

[ViCtOrEhEhEh]

Originally Posted by Googi

Yeah okay, so how much of this have you actually scripted?

Read that Koni.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by ViCtOrEhEhEh

Read that Koni.

Originally Posted by konidias

Right now Kings are not my top priority, but when we get around to working on them

Read that Victor.

Originally Posted by Googi

In other words, you think you can script them because you haven't actually tried to.

Yes because God forbid someone thinks they can accomplish something before they have tried to.

[Infernix]

oooooo you just lowered my hopes for your server. I think you need to analyze you plan and think about everything that could intterupt it and cause it to fail. I mean seriously think about it hard. Dont just read this and assume your ideas are flawless. Just rlly think about it. Infact dont even respond to this post. Just effing think about it.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Infernix

oooooo you just lowered my hopes for your server. I think you need to analyze you plan and think about everything that could intterupt it and cause it to fail. I mean seriously think about it hard. Dont just read this and assume your ideas are flawless. Just rlly think about it. Infact dont even respond to this post. Just effing think about it.

Oooh, you just lowered my opinion of the average forum user. I think you need to analyze your posts and think about everything that makes them retarded and causes me to ridicule you. I mean seriously think about it hard. Do not just read this and assume your posts are flawless. Just really think about it. In fact, do not even respond to this post. Just, please, think about it.

[konidias]

haha loriel...

Yeah well don't think I haven't already analyzed it. I obviously wouldn't even think about doing it if it was going to have a ton of problems. I have like hours worth of documentation on it already. It's not like I just say "there will be npc kings!!" and that's all there is. I've been into game design since I was 13 and I'm nearly 23 now. I've been drawing/writing up designs for games since you were 7 years old. I think I know a little bit about the process.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by konidias

Yes because God forbid someone thinks they can accomplish something before they have tried to.

For something like this, yeah. Thinking you can make something like this is pretty ignorant. It would be more reasonable to think that you might be able to make it, and you definitely shouldn't be telling people that it's definitely going to happen.

[konidias]

It will be made. I know my limitations better than you know my limitations.

Let's break this down to the real issue. You don't like me because I'm not giving rocks owner tags and I'm removing player bomies. Case closed. =P

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by konidias

I'm not giving rocks owner tags

I'm removing player bomies.

[Kuza]

Originally Posted by Loriel

With the right amount of NPC programming we can have awesome ingame 3d engines and AIs that replace all staff and produce awesome new content and write new scripts themselves!

This, in itself, is not a convincing argument. The amount of programming is not the question, but rather the finesse and design required.

It's called a generalization. Graal itself would not exist if 3D engines and AI advanced so much. Much less any other current MMORPG. We'd be playing some sort of holographic-virtual-reality-real-life-simulator!

Originally Posted by Loriel

Why do we have people in charge of things and not NPCs? Why are people necessary over programmed behaviour? Certainly companies would be run more efficiently if they were managed by computers and not people, and a computer teaching children is way awesomer than an actual teacher. And if the parliament was replaced by a deterministic program, there would be way less chaos in politics! While we are at it, let's replace Moonie with a php script that filters illegal posts before they are even posted!

You are totally taking this out of the context of a game and applying it to real life scenarios. Which isn't the case here... we're talking about NPC kings not politicians and the senate.

Originally Posted by Loriel

The NPC king, however, will fail to make certain important decisions, because it lacks the ability to even consider them, which is going to be as fatal as a player king making the wrong decisions. Both can be counteracted by having staff take over their tasks and overriding their decisions, but that makes the kingdom concept way less interesting.

In a way, it is more damaging because the NPC king lacks the ability to advance the development of his kingdom, and is limited to fairly simple decisions that are based on actual simple game mechanics.

Who is to say Konidias won't be able to intervene and add more commands when the appropriate time comes? We don't even know the foundation which is being layed out for kingdoms, we're simply being skeptical. Give it a chance, mang. I'm sure kingdom members will have the ability to direct the kingdom in a good or bad direction.

Originally Posted by Loriel

This discussion is not about the necessity of kingdoms. Whether we need any is beyond its scope, and everybody agrees that they need to be done right. Consider making a separate thread for this question.

Agreed.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Kuza

It's called a generalization. Graal itself would not exist if 3D engines and AI advanced so much. Much less any other current MMORPG. We'd be playing some sort of holographic-virtual-reality-real-life-simulator!

So what? With the right amount programming, it would be possible!

You are totally taking this out of the context of a game and applying it to real life scenarios. Which isn't the case here... we're talking about NPC kings not politicians and the senate.

Well, duh. That is the point of a simile. I am suggesting that you fail to realise the scope of your claims.

Who is to say Konidias won't be able to intervene and add more commands when the appropriate time comes?

That essentially places him directly in charge of the kingdoms, as he directly programs certain behaviour responding to a given situation. Then it is not an NPC king, but Konidias being king.

We don't even know the foundation which is being layed out for kingdoms, we're simply being skeptical. Give it a chance, mang.

Refer to the first paragraph in the post you quoted. I am not saying NPC kings are not going to be totally awesome.

[ApothiX]

Originally Posted by konidias

I've been drawing/writing up designs for games since you were 7 years old. I think I know a little bit about the process.

And how many of them actually made it? I could easily say "I've been drawing since I was 2 years old!" but that doesn't mean I'm doing it right.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by konidias

Let's break this down to the real issue. You don't like me because I'm not giving rocks owner tags and I'm removing player bomies. Case closed. =P

Uh, yeah I don't like those things, and I also don't think you're able to make good NPC kings. One does not cause the other.

[Kuza]

Just wondering how the project is coming along, Koni. I'm sure everyone is just as curious. Thanks. X3

[Shotoo2]

Konidias is using the George Bush method and ignoring everyone elses opinions.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Shotoo2

Konidias is using the George Bush method and ignoring everyone elses opinions.

It's been a general misconception that I'm ignoring everyone's opinion. When in reality, I'm simply disagreeing with them. Huge difference.

I've had like less than 10 people disapprove of npc kings. That's not going to make me change my mind. It's not as though every single person who is going to play on the server has voted, and the majority voted to not have npc kings. Even if that WERE the case, I would still go through with it, but not because I'm ignoring their opinion, but because I feel that it will work.

Just because many people tell you that something won't work or that they don't like your idea, doesn't mean it's a bad idea or that it won't work. How do you think so many inventions came to exist? Airplanes anyone?

The fact of the matter is, if you were going to play on the server before you heard about npc kings, you're probably still going to play on it. If you try it out and don't like it... fine. But there's no reason to reject the idea without even seeing it in action.

edit: All that mess and I didn't even answer the other question. lol

As far as progress goes.. We're making progress. I've been a little too busy to bother with posting updates, but stuff is getting done. Right now we're testing the HP system and setting up bows and arrows. We have them firing and hurting players, as well as bouncing off shields. We're having a few minor glitches with it but it's being worked out.

I'm working on fishing stuff, as well as the fish quest. Remaking graphics still. CS event has been updated with new graphics and once we get the bow and arrow mess worked out, we can make the fireblast and nukeshot for CS.

A release date is a long way off though... But everyone has waited so long that it hardly matters. It will be good when it's released and that's what I'm making sure of.

[Androk2]

I'll read the thread after I post, so ignore this if it's already been addressed. Koni how do you plan to go about money dumps? Let's face it, if BI succeeds, people will go on there the first day, and within a week, you WILL have people with over 1,000 gold. At elast during last recreation, I spent 23 hours online in 2 days, and me and a few friends were able to completly deck ourselves out, and eventually supply diamond axes and all that shabang.

If BI is to succeeed you'd have to create some serious money sinks for thsoe hardcore players, and what's worse you'd have to be able to make em repetative, and entertaining.

So is anything of this sort being worked on? Any insider's information we can obtain?

[Androk2]

On the Kings Debate:

I'm actually for NPC Kings. It's an original idea that will in fact work better. And if you relied on a KING to help you RP, well you are not that good of an RPer. Back in the day of dwindling Graal2001, back when there would be like 10 people on, I used to just log on and Rp my Samurai warrior. Go off on adventures, keep a journal, etc.

Part of Role Playing is making your own adventure. The game is just there to help you, make a setting. And frankly, I'd be delighted to have my character speak with the king, and perhaps gain some new quest through misinterpretation of kings words =P.

One critisim that I do havbe is, knoi, you'd have to make one hell of a npc script for that. I mean I've already tried to do something like this back in the day, and it's tough. You might also want to generate a full court to the king, with high ranking offciers/maids and so on,a s wella s a "drama generator" that for example creates a relationship between a maid and the king, or one of the stable boys kills a high ranking officer. That would be awesome. Or even better (And this would probably be doen as a customn event), the king gets slayn, and a new hier rises to power by withdrawing a club of power from some sort of wooden cove o.0

Anyway, I say take the NPC King idea and run with it. It makes sense, and those that complain probably do not see the potential.

I mean seriously, how many times did you fail to have a fun time RPing because someone broke out of character, or started doing something completley incoherent. It happens alot, ALOT! RPing with friends in a preset environment that NURTURES your Role Playing world, that is fun! I mean, my funnest time role playing has always been in small groups, that do not rely on some king or any kind of higher power. If I want to go around killing things for suposedly higher purpose, I'd go load up UT2k4, or just go gank in Bomboria. To me, majority of the time, it'd be same as Kingdom Wars.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Androk2

I'll read the thread after I post, so ignore this if it's already been addressed. Koni how do you plan to go about money dumps? Let's face it, if BI succeeds, people will go on there the first day, and within a week, you WILL have people with over 1,000 gold. At elast during last recreation, I spent 23 hours online in 2 days, and me and a few friends were able to completly deck ourselves out, and eventually supply diamond axes and all that shabang.

If BI is to succeeed you'd have to create some serious money sinks for thsoe hardcore players, and what's worse you'd have to be able to make em repetative, and entertaining.

So is anything of this sort being worked on? Any insider's information we can obtain?

There isn't any real way to stop people from playing so much and getting so much money... In fact, it's encouraged, as it makes the server popular and whatnot...

I'll tell you right now that it will be impossible to "deck yourself out" completely in 24 hours time. There will be a wide array of tools to buy and try out. There will be a massive amount of different clothing. There will be playerhouses which I won't get too specific on, but I'll tell you that they can be a huge money drain if you want to go that route.

Then there are different pets, instruments, food, etc...

The amount of different swords and shields alone will probably total more than all of the items on the old server. Since you can't just set your shield and sword anymore. =p

I think most of the people who have cash to spend will probably buy a bomy pet, and spend the majority of their money on clothes and accessories, and possibly their playerhouse.

[ViCtOrEhEhEh]

NPC Kings arent unique because EVERY single game has NPC kings, like duh. Player kings are funner and bring more drama and corruption into the community. THAT is what causes a server to be fun. Why did so many people play and like Era when Chrisz was manager? Because there was PI and PPA which had super guns and there was corruption. THAT is the real fun in a game.