Attention To Moderators

Mitch · #1 03-26-2005, 10:10 PM

I have recently read posts discussing the ratings of the moderators. Ofcourse, these forums were closed, but are people not entitled to their own opinion and to record a public opinion... I believe so. A moderator or even super moderator souly exists to enforce the rules not close threads, that they may or may not like.

I have just seen one specific thread where a super moderator closed a thread, saying "stop tryinging to cause trouble". Well maybe they are trying to cause problem, but maybe they are simply trying to help the community, and the moderators are using their own opinion as an excuse to close a thread. Please note, that by posting this thread I am not trying to offend any moderators but am simply trying to prove a point.

Minoc · #2 03-27-2005, 12:14 AM

I couldn't agree more.
Certain moderator(s?) don't understand that constractive critism exists.

Rufus · #3 03-27-2005, 12:17 AM

Who would you appoint as a moderator then?

Crono · #4 03-27-2005, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

Who would you appoint as a moderator then?

Crono1!111

XaerozX · #5 03-27-2005, 12:42 AM

I Wouldnt

Akoalin · #6 03-27-2005, 01:28 AM

Maybe moderators of different sections of the forums?

maximus_asinus · #7 03-27-2005, 01:32 AM

I agree that moderators can be baised a little when doing they're job, closing threads that they disagree with, but this hasn't happened as much as you say. Most threads concerning the mod(s) aren't about helping, they are made for the purpose of insulting them.

Scott · #8 03-27-2005, 01:42 AM

Hey, the Graphics forum could do with some reworking. Agreed muchly to the basis of this thread though.

davidpsy · #9 03-27-2005, 08:18 AM

I'm seeing the future, again

, seeing that damn pad lock icon.

zell12 · #10 03-27-2005, 08:22 AM

If the moderators are doing a poor job, and you feel you have to tell someone, go bring this to the attention of the Administrators. Give them examples of the "wrong doings" from the super moderators. Don't create such threads like this.

If a moderator closes or deletes a thread, it is usually for a good reason. And if their opinion is to close the thread they have the right to.

Zero Hour · #11 03-27-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

Hey, the Graphics forum could do with some reworking. Agreed muchly to the basis of this thread though.

I elect me.

Kaimetsu · #12 03-27-2005, 08:41 AM

The fact that the moderators feel unable to justify their actions in public is indicative of a very big problem. They act on impulse without considering what they do, which is bad enough, but then they refuse to let the users teach them to do better.

There is a constant assumption that nobody in the community has anything of worth to tell them.

davidpsy · #13 03-27-2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The fact that the moderators feel unable to justify their actions in public is indicative of a very big problem. They act on impulse without considering what they do, which is bad enough, but then they refuse to let the users teach them to do better.

There is a constant assumption that nobody in the community has anything of worth to tell them.

Very true.

ZanderX · #14 03-27-2005, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

I have recently read posts discussing the ratings of the moderators. Ofcourse, these forums were closed, but are people not entitled to their own opinion and to record a public opinion... I believe so. A moderator or even super moderator souly exists to enforce the rules not close threads, that they may or may not like.

Well, people are entitled to their own opinion and should (and in most cases do) have the right to express said opinion.

Not that I am defending certain moderation practices and activities, I'm just saying that there is a thing called moderator's discretion and in some cases if a mod thinks that a post or a thread honestly doesn't deserve to exist then they have the right to get rid of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

I have just seen one specific thread where a super moderator closed a thread, saying "stop tryinging to cause trouble". Well maybe they are trying to cause problem, but maybe they are simply trying to help the community, and the moderators are using their own opinion as an excuse to close a thread. Please note, that by posting this thread I am not trying to offend any moderators but am simply trying to prove a point.

The problem with your logic here is that it obviously can go either way. And sometimes, by trying to "help" the community people inevitably cause problems. It's all a matter of guidance and misguidance and what people do with their time and energy.

This argument has gone on since the dawn of time and on just about every forum I have ever visited, so I don't think we're going to come to any kind of viable solution anytime soon.

edit: While I am not closing this thread, I did delete a couple of worthless posts and I fully encourage just about anyone to IM me about this topic or to continue the discussion here in a civil manner. And that means no pointing fingers or blatant "OMG ___ SUCKS", folks.

Kaimetsu · #15 03-27-2005, 09:19 AM

I probably should stress that I'm not necessarily criticising every moderator. I think pretty much everybody knows who the biggest offender is.

ZanderX · #16 03-27-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I probably should stress that I'm not necessarily criticising every moderator.

Oh, I know this. (Though it most definitely is a good thing for you to clarify this for people who might not catch on.) I was just saying that the less finger pointing and the less playing of the blame game, the more constructive and potentially helpful this thread will be.

WanDaMan · #17 03-27-2005, 10:55 AM

Moderators should be allowed to post more than 1 post a day x-x

Kaimetsu · #18 03-27-2005, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Moderators should be allowed to post more than 1 post a day x-x

It wouldn't be as much of an issue if they didn't hire so many mods for such ridiculous reasons.

Minoc · #19 03-27-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZanderX

I was just saying that the less finger pointing and the less playing of the blame game, the more constructive and potentially helpful this thread will be.

Only if a certain person wouldn't lock it. >_>

A few examples of constractive threads:
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=56899
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=58137
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=56825

zell12 · #20 03-27-2005, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Moderators should be allowed to post more than 1 post a day x-x

So because someone is a moderator, we should give them free access to what alot of other people are paying for? I know who you are speaking of, and I don't care. Eveyone should have to pay, not just certain people.

WanDaMan · #21 03-27-2005, 10:05 PM

Ah!, I didn't look at it from that prespective.

Crono · #22 03-27-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Moderators should be allowed to post more than 1 post a day x-x

Or maybe they shouldn't be mods? I mean, what good is it if they can't post? Not that I'm against mods who dont have gold/vip, just saying...

ThinkDifferent · #23 03-27-2005, 11:00 PM

I agree with all of this thread!

Kronan · #24 03-27-2005, 11:31 PM

I think Cyberwhatever people should be the moderators, people who actually get paid and don't need to be power hungry on a forum.

GoZelda · #25 03-28-2005, 12:28 AM

I think that the moderators of the specific Kingdom forums aren't doing a great job, mainly because they often close a thread while still continuing to argue with the person who made them close the thread, which makes it seems as if they want to have the last word. They basically say:
"This argument is leading nowhere, so I close the thread. Oh yeah, you were wrong on this and this, your mother is fat, I think you should be banned and you are a very dumb/stupid/whatever person."
Can you see my point? They often just close the thread to have the last word.

And my rebellion thread. Moonie said the mods would discuss adding a new rule, when is this going to happen? Or have they already decided on something but won't tell us?

Scott · #26 03-28-2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

I elect me.

I elect you, too.

Mitch · #27 03-28-2005, 01:08 AM

Possibly, one moderator per section, so if you do not like that certain moderator you can go elswhere. Only this would not help as your certain field or favorite section may be covered by someone that you may hate.

Another possibility is to have some form of organized power system, which is guaranteed to happen with what is going on, on these forums. Zander, I partially agree with the moderator's discression however, this is one of the main problems causing all the trouble on the graal forums. Take the forum that I was talking about in the beginning of the thread for example, he/she closed the thread because they believed it was inappropriate.

Moderators, were not hired to enforce their opinions or beliefs upon the graalian forums. They were hired strictly to enforce the rules made by the administrators of Graal and the creators of the forums, which evidently are the same people. Most likely I will continue discussing these issues, on these forums until I can grab someone's attention, and make progress.

ZanderX · #28 03-28-2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kronan

I think Cyberwhatever people should be the moderators, people who actually get paid and don't need to be power hungry on a forum.

The problems with this are that:

There aren't enough CJ employees to do this.
The CJ employees that currently do use the forums are already occupied with other duties.

Obviously this problem can be solved by hiring employees specifically to moderate the forums or hiring some of the current moderation staff, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

Possibly, one moderator per section, so if you do not like that certain moderator you can go elswhere. Only this would not help as your certain field or favorite section may be covered by someone that you may hate.

The problem here, simply, is a combination of favoritism and bias. People who do not like a particular mod will either not post in that mod's forum or will post a lot there specifically to annoy said moderator and cause trouble. One moderator per section does not really work as there are times when moderators aren't online, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

Another possibility is to have some form of organized power system, which is guaranteed to happen with what is going on, on these forums.

I don't quite understand what you mean? The very nature of moderators and vBulletin is that there IS an organized power system. Users -> Moderators -> Super Moderators / Global Moderators -> Administrators. There's really not much else you can do except to impose hierarchy within specific forums that have more than one mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

Zander, I partially agree with the moderator's discression however, this is one of the main problems causing all the trouble on the graal forums.

It causes trouble on just about every forum in the universe, dude. There's nothing you can do about it because moderators will close threads out of the blue at times because of their opinion. Not everything can be decided by using the rules as an arbitrary basis for 'law enforcement' if you will.

Take the forum that I was talking about in the beginning of the thread for example, he/she closed the thread because they believed it was inappropriate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

Moderators, were not hired to enforce their opinions or beliefs upon the graalian forums.

This is true. At the same time, users are not necessarily entitled to post all of their opinions or beliefs here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

They were hired strictly to enforce the rules made by the administrators of Graal and the creators of the forums, which evidently are the same people. Most likely I will continue discussing these issues, on these forums until I can grab someone's attention, and make progress.

Well, I'm just gonna say now that the moderators here have been very opinionated since the forums began; you weren't here back then and don't really know how it was like when we had actual user administration (TrueHeaT, Hawk, etc.), which was a lot different and much more...violent I guess.

Mitch · #29 03-28-2005, 01:54 AM

As an organized system of power, I refer to an something similar to a government. Users are entitled to post their opinion and or beliefs unless, it conflicts with European law and even this is not verified. If moderators and or users do not like the opinions or beliefs of another user that does not mean they are entitled to close or delete the thread. I'm aware I cannot stop most fourms from having abusive, violent or corrupt moderators, but I guarantee I can on the graal forums.

It is best if the super moderators, moderators are picked by the public, rather than other globals or the graal administration. If you are saying that moderators are going to continue to be able to use their opinions as guidelines for enforcing power, I'm sorry to say that I will not let this happen, with or without the help of others. Because of this thread, I will be hosting a graal online site to discuss and possibly change matters such as these.

zim5354 · #30 03-28-2005, 02:17 AM

Why not let the posters have a mod election every so often? I mean that way if something goes wrong its your fault for voteing for that person and if you didnt, tuff the majority did then you can hope in the next mod election they wont get voted in agin.

Mitch · #31 03-28-2005, 02:45 AM

That's a good idea.

Evil_Trunks · #32 03-28-2005, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

If moderators and or users do not like the opinions or beliefs of another user that does not mean they are entitled to close or delete the thread. I'm aware I cannot stop most fourms from having abusive, violent or corrupt moderators, but I guarantee I can on the graal forums.

Prove it...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

It is best if the super moderators, moderators are picked by the public, rather than other globals or the graal administration. If you are saying that moderators are going to continue to be able to use their opinions as guidelines for enforcing power, I'm sorry to say that I will not let this happen, with or without the help of others.

How do you plan on stopping Graal Online from running its forums the way it wants to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

Because of this thread, I will be hosting a graal online site to discuss and possibly change matters such as these.

I'm sure the administration will pay much more attention when they see you made your own website and everything!

zim5354 · #33 03-28-2005, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

That's a good idea.

Thanks but I doubt it would work. I mean the current mod(s) would go through ice and fire to make sure this doesnt happin becuse they know the vote would not be in there favor mostlikley.

Originally Posted by Mitch
It is best if the super moderators, moderators are picked by the public, rather than other globals or the graal administration. If you are saying that moderators are going to continue to be able to use their opinions as guidelines for enforcing power, I'm sorry to say that I will not let this happen, with or without the help of others.

How do you plan on stopping Graal Online from running its forums the way it wants to?

Becuse we are the customers hmm think of it this way they are a store us being customers buy there goods if we dont like the service the store has to change to keep our business.

ZanderX · #34 03-28-2005, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zim5354

Thanks but I doubt it would work. I mean the current mod(s) would go through ice and fire to make sure this doesnt happin becuse they know the vote would not be in there favor mostlikley.

I actually would have no problem with it if it didn't ultimately boil down to a bribery-capable popularity contest, which is what it would inevitably become.

zim5354 · #35 03-28-2005, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZanderX

I actually would have no problem with it if it didn't ultimately boil down to a bribery-capable popularity contest, which is what it would inevitably become.

I dont think your the mod(s) were talking about, But in any case you are right about that people would go mad/power hungry and like for preporations you would have to track each account make sure it could only vote once etc.

ZanderX · #36 03-28-2005, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zim5354

I dont think your the mod(s) were talking about, But in any case you are right about that people would go mad/power hungry and like for preporations you would have to track each account make sure it could only vote once etc.

Well, I wasn't really trying to act on the defensive as I (not to be haughty or anything) think I'm fairly universally liked since I try to be a laid-back, down to earth kind of guy, but I've seen things like this happen and they really don't work. People who are running will promise things and not do them, will harass people into voting for them, etc. etc.

Mitch · #37 03-28-2005, 04:37 AM

Trunks, I will prove it. I have spent a very long time playing graal, since about the time golbez was made the first sfx admin on graal. I've learned money is everything whether in real life, or on graal, and I will use if nessicary, taking into consider it is something I have. I'm going to do everything in my power to workout something with the graal administration.

Your lack of confidence and your doubt is precisely the reason why graal is going to end up being scrap. Infact this is precisely what is in everyone's head. What you don't realize is that the administration does what satisfy's the players so they keep paying. The players aren't happy = they don't pay = the project fails = no money gained.

Zander, if you believe I am going to back down, your wrong. I have devoted years of my life to graal, if graal continues to go down the tubes with these kinds of issues I don't know what I'll do. There is no way I'm letting anything else happen. If people are banned on a playerworld, I will look into it with them and make sure they were banned for all the right reasons and the staff have proof, otherwise inform higher staff or even globals. If a forum moderator abuses power, etc I will talk to the graal administration. If anyone wants to test me, go ahead.

James205 · #38 03-28-2005, 05:43 AM

I look at the forums back in 2001 and they were so much more active and... fun? The ironic thing is now they arent as active and moderating is more strict than ever. The only "Bad" threads I see on the forums are issues with the moderators, those are closed instantly and then we are told to "Go to the administrators about it or PM blah blah" and everyone knows that will do nothing and by saying that just basically means "buzz off you can't do anything about it."

The fact is, nothing really bad happens on these forums and for the amount of posts and people who come here now... closing every bad thread just doesn't make sense to me, those bad threads are more attempts by players to help out graal in my opinion.

zim5354 · #39 03-29-2005, 02:24 AM

It is and its working becuse notice that every "bad" thread has been closed well besides this one well atleast not yet they see how we feel and the problem now they just have to choose if there gona do anything about the mod(s) dont get me wrong in thinking there is just one there are many problems but still one big fix would do alot of good.

Sildae · #40 03-29-2005, 04:27 AM

Let's separate the legislative body from the judiciary.