Doomsday!

[Malinko]

Hi.

I'm searching for the past staff of the world known as DOOMSDAY!

Let me define what I mean when I speak of, "past staff". I mean, the staff who worked on the world a few months ago before Tifa closed the world.

If possible, please send me a forum private message, I would like to have a conversation amongst all.

Of course, it's relating to the world.

Thanks!

Edit: Before I forget, when contacted, please provide what position was held on the world.

[Crono]

Doomsday!

is dead

[CidNight1142]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Doomsday!

is dead

Says you.
*awaits Tifa's trolling to search function "Doomsday" and go ape*****

[Omini]

Originally Posted by CidNight1142

*awaits Tifa's trolling to search function "Doomsday" and go ape*****

Don't hold your breath, although I still think Hiro still has contact with Tifa

[CidNight1142]

Hiro will be very interested in this. He needs to get on AIM.

[Omini]

Yeah. Malinko needs to get on AIM so Hiro can IM him.

[Zorganite]

these things always occur when im drunk


i sent you a pm or whatever or somethhjmn

[Malinko]

Send me a forum private message with his AOL Instant Messenger screen name, I have a private list.

[Omini]

Originally Posted by Malinko

Send me a forum private message with his AOL Instant Messenger screen name, I have a private list.

Done.

[HoudiniMan]

I played Doomsday from day 1, and we all know that Tifa's doomsday was not the original doomsday. Ever since Haven was released it wasn't original doomsday anymore.

The only recurring theme with Doomsday is the name. There has never been anything particularly unique or amazing about the levels that I can remember.

So why do people constantly try to revive it? I could care less about the levels being re-used, as a doomsday player with nostalgia, but I do care about the namesake staying alive. Doomsday was a great world. I don't want to have people saying "Doomsday was great... until the end when those other guys did things"... etc.

Now, as a PWA, I consider it bad policy for Graal to override the policy we make the players follow without having a considerably large benefit to gain by reviving this world. I fail to see why Graal should override Tifa on the issue of revival rights. To what end would that help us reach?

What is so special about the old Doomsday levels that the idea cannot be recreated under a different name with the new scripting engine and no "restoration" work to be done?

Or is this all about the name?

[CidNight1142]

I think its become an argument of rights and morals. Generally, it seems that previous managers are given the rights to a playerworld with the expectation that they hopefully will listen to their community, atleast a little bit. Tifa has taken control of Doomsday in such a way that the outcry from its community means absolutely nothing to her. Doomsday was going to be revived simply because a really large number of its former population wanted it to be.

Houdini, I know you played since day one, so did I. The Doomsday overworld changed atleast 3 times, the final one being partly my work. All of the different overworlds were important to me and each change came with controversy. That controversy, and that importance simply makes the DD memory stronger, and does not detract from its revival in the least in my opinion.

I've never been a huge fan of PW revivals in general, but if a project is actually being successful, then I see no reason why it can't move ahead. My biggest problem here is that Tifa decided to shut down this project again for the wrong reasons. She continually gets people's hopes up and then crushes them again. She turns on friendship in the very instant that you disagree with her (trust me, I know). I just feel like our success was pulled away from us for bad reasoning. The people who wanted DD back, which is a large number, got ripped off, and maybe its time that we finally decide if Tifa should get what she wants, or if we should maybe fight for what we want.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I played Doomsday from day 1, and we all know that Tifa's doomsday was not the original doomsday. Ever since Haven was released it wasn't original doomsday anymore.

The only recurring theme with Doomsday is the name. There has never been anything particularly unique or amazing about the levels that I can remember.

So why do people constantly try to revive it? I could care less about the levels being re-used, as a doomsday player with nostalgia, but I do care about the namesake staying alive. Doomsday was a great world. I don't want to have people saying "Doomsday was great... until the end when those other guys did things"... etc.

Now, as a PWA, I consider it bad policy for Graal to override the policy we make the players follow without having a considerably large benefit to gain by reviving this world. I fail to see why Graal should override Tifa on the issue of revival rights. To what end would that help us reach?

What is so special about the old Doomsday levels that the idea cannot be recreated under a different name with the new scripting engine and no "restoration" work to be done?

Or is this all about the name?

I remember you as a GP cadet there.

[Omini]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I played Doomsday from day 1, and we all know that Tifa's doomsday was not the original doomsday. Ever since Haven was released it wasn't original doomsday anymore.

The only recurring theme with Doomsday is the name. There has never been anything particularly unique or amazing about the levels that I can remember.

So why do people constantly try to revive it? I could care less about the levels being re-used, as a doomsday player with nostalgia, but I do care about the namesake staying alive. Doomsday was a great world. I don't want to have people saying "Doomsday was great... until the end when those other guys did things"... etc.

Now, as a PWA, I consider it bad policy for Graal to override the policy we make the players follow without having a considerably large benefit to gain by reviving this world. I fail to see why Graal should override Tifa on the issue of revival rights. To what end would that help us reach?

What is so special about the old Doomsday levels that the idea cannot be recreated under a different name with the new scripting engine and no "restoration" work to be done?

Or is this all about the name?

I would only like to see it being called DoomsDay again if it had the old staff and players, like Av, Cid, you, myself, Shadow Darkstar, Ragnarok, Dameion, Shadow Ironblade, Omega, Blade Darkrune, Jenny Darkrune, Dameion, Blitz, Azreil, Tidus, and all the rest - even Baraka. Although most of them can't be brought back since they've appeared to have cut off contact, heh. But if it was brought back with the name DoomsDay, I would have to have at least 6 of those names come back with it.

Also using the name DoomsDay would give the server a popularity boost from the oldbie Graal players.

[AgretTehLeet]

Originally Posted by Omini

I would only like to see it being called DoomsDay again if it had the old staff and players, like Av, Cid, you, myself, Shadow Darkstar, Ragnarok, Dameion, Shadow Ironblade, Omega, Blade Darkrune, Jenny Darkrune, Dameion, Blitz, Azreil, Tidus, and all the rest - even Baraka.

GAHHH NOT LISTING ME!!

[Omini]

Originally Posted by AgretTehLeet

GAHHH NOT LISTING ME!!

I was gonna, but I forgot. ^.^

[Crono]

Doomsday indeed. I played it for a short time and never liked it.

[Zorganite]

Houdini, you don't understand. I don't care how many years you've played Graal or what server you've been on from day 1. If you don'y know why we want the server back, then I highly doubt you ever will. It's not just the server - it was the feeling that made me want to play Graal that I want back, and Doomsday is about 70% of that. The only reason I still go on is the other 30%, and if theres a way to gain back the other part, then I will do whatever it takes to get it back. Realistically that is.

It's hard to explain, but a good reason is something Tifa said to me when she was removing my RC and everything.

Originally Posted by TifaKhan

Doomsday is dead. You are not getting it back, ever. Let it die. We all know that a Doomsday without me is not Doomsday at all. So leave it be, and go away. Let us rest in peace.

(Now we need her to come and tell us she never said that. )

[Darlene159]

Doomsday was the server I played to get away from my work on N-Pulse
I loved it, and would love to see it come back.

[coreys]

I remember at one point, maybe a year and a half ago, some noob owned a server called doomsday, and had noobs staff. And almost everything on the server was stolen.

Or maybe it was another server, but Doomsday seems to ring with that.

[CidNight1142]

Originally Posted by coreys

I remember at one point, maybe a year and a half ago, some noob owned a server called doomsday, and had noobs staff. And almost everything on the server was stolen.

Or maybe it was another server, but Doomsday seems to ring with that.

Ya know, or not. If you want to try and slander something you know nothing about, try Era or something, that seems more popular right now.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by CidNight1142

Ya know, or not. If you want to try and slander something you know nothing about, try Era or something, that seems more popular right now.

I'm not slandering it. Well, yes I slandered that server I suppose in a way, that it was at that time, but I've been on Doomsday many other times, and quite liked it. At most its levels, I suppose.

[Zorganite]

Originally Posted by coreys

I'm not slandering it. Well, yes I slandered that server I suppose in a way, that it was at that time, but I've been on Doomsday many other times, and quite liked it. At most its levels, I suppose.

You've said this before on rivial projects and it was proved that you were talking about another server and not Doomsday. If anything, other servers have stolen off of Doomsday content since it went down, and many people still have some of its levels and NPCs.

If Malinko ever wants to IM me about this, since I believe Cid and Omini have both given him my AIM, I would be glad to talk this over with him.

Might as well make it public:

The staff were:

TifaKhan: Paid for the server and stuff
Hiro: Did everything
UnholyPaladin: Made a game or something
Cid: Helped hiro run forums
Boston: Helped Hiro run forums and was gonna be asst GP Cheif or something
Ultima: GP Stuff
Omini: Helped with levels and stuff
Wyrven: Made Tifa mad and did levels or something

The only one with RC was Tifa, Hiro, and UP. Tifa and UP shared the Admin account, to my knowledge. Everyone else was removed.

Past people who had Rc at one point:

Cujo
Gambet
Houdini
Ajira
Gate

All of these past people were fired for one reason or another.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Zorganite

All of these past people were fired for one reason or another.

Not true, I was never fired, and neither were a lot of the old staff. I was around during Tifa's last days (and ages before she ever decided to quit). She wished for Doomsday to be taken down, and taken down for good. I think it's wrong to bring back the server, as it was before, behind her own will. She was a great manager, and she even upgraded the accounts of her hard working staff if they really needed it. As a former, hard working, staff member, I'd love to see the old DD back and in action, but with all due respect, you'd have to be quite an evil person to go behind the will of one of the greatest managers ever known on graal and resurrect the server that she struggled to create into a dynasty, without her consent.

EDIT: I had the same account as I do today when I worked on Doomsday, but I went by the nickname SkyBlazer, with the popular family name at the time, Rain.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Zorganite

You've said this before on rivial projects and it was proved that you were talking about another server and not Doomsday. If anything, other servers have stolen off of Doomsday content since it went down, and many people still have some of its levels and NPCs.

If Malinko ever wants to IM me about this, since I believe Cid and Omini have both given him my AIM, I would be glad to talk this over with him.

Might as well make it public:

The staff were:

TifaKhan: Paid for the server and stuff
Hiro: Did everything
UnholyPaladin: Made a game or something
Cid: Helped hiro run forums
Boston: Helped Hiro run forums and was gonna be asst GP Cheif or something
Ultima: GP Stuff
Omini: Helped with levels and stuff
Wyrven: Made Tifa mad and did levels or something

The only one with RC was Tifa, Hiro, and UP. Tifa and UP shared the Admin account, to my knowledge. Everyone else was removed.

Past people who had Rc at one point:

Cujo
Gambet
Houdini
Ajira
Gate

All of these past people were fired for one reason or another.

Like I said in my original post, I wasn't entirely sure that it was doomsday, but at the time I was pretty sure about it. My mistake, OH NOES!

And when have I said anything of that sort about other projects? I consider no other project a rival, becase other servers are different, they can't be rivals unless they are similar. Which almost no server is alike to another.

[Gambet]

I worked on Doomsday as a NAT. Ajira worked alongside me, he was head of the department. Reedeemer was an administrator, I believe. Unholy Paladin was either a developer or a NAT, but he and Tifa had a thing going for each other. Either way, Unholy Paladin made some very nice games and some nice npcs. Blitz and Azreil were LATs, but I think Azreil was fired or so. Agret, I believe, was a developer, but he started getting involved with Anti-Graal affairs. Can't really remember anyone else from the top of my head, though. Maybe if I see some names, something will kick in.

[Malinko]

Thanks for those who contacted me.

It's a big help!

[Blitz_Hunter]

Id like to see it back, i enjoyed making levels there.

[Tom]

Unholy was working on Doomsday a few months ago, i remeber him showing me some scrolls and such, i was called Dark Angel back in the Tifa age, thats when i first joined :P With icedevil :o

Would be cool if the old players came back, i prefer graal back in the old days so much more

[contiga]

For a stafflist of doomsday, logon and warpto: halloffame3.nw, there are some statues there

[Malinko]

Tifa has nothing on me.

*Brushes shoulders off*

I have a plan, WHAT PLAN? No one can know now, but it's a plan...OF SUCCESS.

[Omini]

Originally Posted by Malinko

Tifa has nothing on me.

*Brushes shoulders off*

I have a plan, WHAT PLAN? No one can know now, but it's a plan...OF SUCCESS.

On another note, I really don't like the way you put that... if you do the wrong thing, there's gonna be a lot of complaining and a lot of arguing. Make sure you know what you're doing. That means Don't Give It To Anyone unless it's an oldbie of Doomsday, because they have a right to have a server they once lived for.

[Malinko]

Originally Posted by Omini

On another note, I really don't like the way you put that... if you do the wrong thing, there's gonna be a lot of complaining and a lot of arguing. Make sure you know what you're doing. That means Don't Give It To Anyone unless it's an oldbie of Doomsday, because they have a right to have a server they once lived for.

Thus I asked who the previous staff in the revival project was. I'm sure after like ten staff contact me stating to me who was what, all of them mentioned the same positions, so I think I know who was the highest ranked and lowest ranked staff.

[Omini]

Tell me the plan in a PM, then I'll tell you if I'm going to rebel or not.

[Malinko]

We're all rebels inside.

I'm from the south too, so even more.

[CidNight1142]

Whoops. My bad.
Point still stands. Don't slander a server when you've already done it and been proven wrong just a few months ago.

[TifaKhan]

This is all so amusing <3 ^-^ *trolls* Yes i'm sorry for occasionally logging on to see whats new! Like the time i logged on Hiro's -new- forums to see you all bagging me when at that time i hadn't done anything. Is there a rule that says i can't defend myself? Please do point me to it

Cid deal with it, Doomsday is dead. It was dead before i closed it down.

Omini the day i have contact with Hiro is the day i move to Russia. (Except for him here on the forums that is :P)

HoudiniMan i agree that Doomsday was the 'original' Doomsday under SkyKnight, Jubei etc. There is and never really has been anything amazing or outstanding about it. This is one thing i don't understand. Why bring it back now after all these years, an old defunct server that nobody played. Sure people might come for the first week then they'd see how old everything was and leave. I fell in love with it because of the people mostly. It's the people that made it what it was. SkyKnight was a truly nice person. Jubei i was terrified of .
The people like Dameion, Leov, Baraka, their what made it great, and no Baraka wouldn't come back i still talk to him on msn.

Cid, what outcry from whom? How many people want it back again? Please show me this huge list of this large population that will work to get it back. Sure you might be one of them who come on here and say waa waa Tifa is the biatch who shut it down, but when are you going to get it through your head that you weren't here when i closed it down so you have no place to give any opinion on what happened!

I took control of Doomsday? Hmm lets see, unfortunately/ or fortunately/ after i became Manager Graal changed a lot. The following year or so saw new things like being able to make your own server, the present 'Manager' of said server became the 'Owner'. I certainly didn't ask to be made the last owner. Because of these first changes 98% of our staff left to go buy and make servers of their own or to get better rights. A fact. One you have no idea about because you weren't here!

I offered Doomsday to three people before i closed it down, they all refused seeing as it was going nowhere. I paid to bring it back for Davio and its still sitting there. I log on occasionally but the whole time its been back even under Davio's leadership the most RC's on at one time was...0. Fascinating! (Wait i saw you Houdini ) I kept asking Davio where all these people were that wanted it back and strangely enough that question never got answered. A few said oh we'll show up when its on classic! But um who was supposed to be working on it? (No i don't take offence at your petty words they can't hurt me.:P)

Zorganite (You sound suspiciously like Hiro ) Doomsday gave you the feelings that you wanted to play Graal? Funny you know Davio said basically the same thing. That's why he wanted me to bring it back so he could recapture that feeling. But it all came back to the same problem. Nobody had an upgraded account and/or were willing to work on it. So back to square one. Besides the feelings Doomsday gave were the ones back when Houdini described, when Graal olbies were around and made it special.

And that post you made up, i did not and have never said that so i'm going to just call you an out and out liar and troublemaker, that also points to you being Hiro :P

This is actually what i said:

Mass message: im sorry to those that dont understand please let me explain DD has been my heart and soul for two years now ive put everything of me into it and now it comes to this DD is dying I always said when it was me and the npc server i would close it down and every day now that happens im ready to move on, which in itself is hard for me because i am still addicted to graal please try to understand im not being selfish
Every word of that message was true. I did put 2 years of my life into DD (and for those challenged people i did not say i 'did all the work' And yes i did often say the day it was just me and the NPC server left i would close it down. So many days i logged on and thats all there was. DD was dying, i just decided i didn't have the fight in me to keep it going anymore. <3Doomsday<3

Hiro: Did everything Funny thing that statement. All Hiro ever said was he did 'everything' yet i saw nothing, not one new level nothing zero zilch nada. Supposedly you had it all on your computer? And how long were we waiting for all this Hiro? I think the fact that i chose to ignore the constant insults on your forums took a lot of patience considering. In the end i gave up. Again.
Cujo
Gambet
Houdini
Ajira
Gate

All of these past people were fired for one reason or another.
I didn't fire all those people <3 You like stirring up trouble don't you Hiro Even Gambit says he wasn't fired and you go out of your way to say he was, shouldn't he know? You really need to get over things!

Gambit Despite what Cid says i do remember you and yes i did upgrade accounts of my staff and ran events to give a prize of an upgraded account. Why did i do that? Because i was trying to keep people interested in Doomsday even though i knew deep down i was fighting a losing battle. But i do have to disagree. I was a 'good' Manager not a 'great' one. I did my best and in the end i gave up but not without a lot of tears and hurt. Why did past Managers like Baraka move on? He wasn't exactly a popular Manager either? But even he found it to much. People in control never are popular i accept that, i just couldn't accept the fact that Doomsday was dying until it got so bad i had to.
Oh and Hir.. oh Zorg calling you an idiot just proves my point. I did not close Doomsday down because i wanted it to be mine, i closed it down because it was dead.
And actually if Davio had been able to really get things going i think it would have been just great without me, i'm not so egotistical as to believe it couldn't possibly survive without me, i just believe it will do better left dead without people like Hiro involved who only want power for themselves.
Yes i closed down a dynasty, a dead server that was once great but it died because of the future that became Graal.

Doesn't matter who had been the last Owner/Manager, who in their right mind is going to put up a dead server nobody played on.
Just so happens it was me and because i'm female you choose to insult me repeatedly in emails (Points Hiro) I'm sure if it had been someone else you wouldn't have been so insulting.

You keep saying you want it back for the community Hir..Zorg, i ask you again who is this community. Please send me a list of all upgraded accounts/names/experience/willingness/of all these people who will work to make it up to standards.

Hiro, lets not bother with keeping up this false sham, i did not claim i was doing all the work, so i really do wish you stop. I said several times and i repeat WarLord was working on the mines, he made the mines, he made the GFX. I simply helped place the GFX where he wanted. Deny it if you wish but those are the facts and i should know. I fired WarLord after repeated arguements he had with every member of staff. He would accuse them all of not doing anything and then when they offered to help he said there was nothing for them to do. So it was a lose lose situation. In the end he got insulting and i fired him and he took his mines with him. Guess what? After that we had nothing left. Know why? Because nobody else was working on anything!

Dusty had nothing to do with my closing Doomsday down so please stop insinuating that. At the time i was still very close with Davio and Dusty was just a friend. Davio and i are still friends and if you wish to dispute this please do feel free to ask him because i've shown him a lot of your claims and he says one thing straight, and that he can't stand you and never talked to you.
Cid you keep going on and on and on about Doomsday revivals that i shut down. I actually brought back a Doomsday reunion remember? Oh wait i don't think you were here!

I don't need a Graal 'fix' I just like to keep up with things and see whose bashing me now. I do have the right to defend myself no matter how many times you bring up the same old accusations of things that you weren't even here for.
Case rested.
Until next time!
*waves* bye Hiro

(P.s.) Are there no rules for people making multiple accounts and getting repeatedly banned?

[xAndrewx]

I agree with Tifa. Hiya <3

[TifaKhan]

Hello I was going to edit but add here instead. I was just told on msn that Malinko is possibly going to try get control of Doomsday, which is rather strange seeing as there is a server called Doomsday allready up on a server i paid for. Is this legal?

Malinko's message to my friend:
Earlier, I spoke with Stefan. I remember a few months ago, I first heard about the Doomsday issue. Of course, it took a few months contacting staff from the past and present, like three months, but it's hard doing it alone. *Shrugs* Though, back to the subject, after speaking to Stefan, I think I'm convincing him that the content can be used from someone else, as long as their is significant support from the other staff as well, sort of like electing a Manager or so. Tifa is the last active Manager, correct, meaning she has the rights, though, GraalOnline has full rights, which can be distributed to someone. Well, as long as it is for a great benefit, in my own opinion.

Though, I am asking, do you think it's rightful to have Doomsday back online, with someone else having rights to the content? I think it's a big waste to have the content offline being unused. After arguing with Tifa for a while, months that is, she needs to act as a rightful past Manager and see the world live.

Be nice if you did speak to me wouldn't it but you haven't of course Malinko.

By the way for reference just how many unused levels and playerworlds are there, i don't imagine Doomsday is the only one.

All this time fighting for a once dead server that nobody wanted, seriously you could have made your own by now.

[Zorganite]

Welcome Tifa, the broken record.

If you had looked you would have seen the changes. During the entire time working on it, you only came on RC twice. Thats pretty good to see the wonderful changes huh?

Secondly, fi you didn't want to be owner, then there are plenty of other people who could have taken it. Why not give it to Davio right there instead of closing the server? Did that ever occur to you?

And ues Dusty had things to do with getting it shut down. On your forums, he was constantly saying how much he didn't want Doomsday back, how you should keep it closed, and you listened to him appernerly. He was saying the same thing when you uploaded it on your server again. Whether the impact was small or not, he was one, or is one of the closest people to you, so he has influence.

As for a list of the community, did you not play Doomsday when it was up or something? All those people would come back, or have rumored that they would come back. The people who have already contacted me, or other people about this are:
Cid, Boston, Omini, Ultima, SkyKnight, Choas, Agret, Ajira, Davio, Xero,, Jenny, Sliq, Ristle, Bassett, Blitz, Azreil, Stanislav, Rain (all 6 or 7 of them or whatever), Wind, Zack, Slikrick, Gate, Xargen, Shadow Darkstar, and many more. Those are just a few who have said they would probably come back to at least see the server. Many others, and some I don't know say they really liked Doomsday and would like to play on it again, or all the rumored memories of Doomsday makes them want to play it. Plus all of the random people who would stop by and see why Doomsday was such a good server in the first place. Just because there are only a few back with accounts posting on this forum or another are few, do not assume that means the force is weak.

And if it was dead then why did you see all the people asking you to not close it down? The constant people and petetions saying "Help Doomsday" and "Don't close down Doomsday"

How about this image:

I find this image saddening, that these were the last people on the server after you constantly ignored everyone.

How abot this image?

Don't you want to have fun like this again? Don't you want to have a community of Doomsday players again? How sick of you to take that away from dedicated people who have spent over 3000 hours on the server instead of somewhere else.

Yes, it's true, we could have made our own server by now. We could have made something completely differen't. But we want Doomsday. I don't think you'll ever understand that, and I don't think you ever will if you don't get that by now. There were many willing people who would have been more dedicated to Doomsday than you, and you were blind to see them. I hope Malinko does go through with this because it would make my heart sing.

And theres no way to contact you other than the forums, and by the looks of things, it looked like you were long gone until we got someone else to contact you, which is too much of a bother.

[TifaKhan]

You Hiro to suffer from broken record syndrome. You keep coming up with the same baseless arguements and lies. I logged on RC more than 2 times, i live in Australia and i was on at different times than you if you can comprehend that.
Not one of the things that i brought up have you an answer for except to say that all these people will PROBABLY PLAY. Play not work, and probably are a bit BUTS. That is no certainty now is it.
Consult Davio again, he can't stand you, and he won't even talk to you and i know for a fact your lying about him because for the record he doesn't call me Tifa, never has and never will. Yet you constantly say Davio said 'Tifa' this or 'Tifa' that. Ask him and message me his response.
You know my email Hiro, you sent me enough insulting emails remember?
For the record, where were all those people when i actually closed it down?
Doomsday was dead. I had no choice.
Lay off about Dusty before i start thinking its harrassment. I was in love with Davio when i closed Doomsday down. Yes Dusty is all for it now like he said on your forums because he knows what you put me through. He saw all the posts remember? Remember the post "I wish Tifa was dead?" Very encouraging to read that wasn't it. Did you expect the person who loves me to say sure give them DD back when they wish you dead?
Just back off Hiro, i've sent several messages and i won't stop until it's over. I paid for a server, put DD on it and i will only give it to someone i trust which sure isn't you.
I still have the link to your lovely site where you have that disgusting stuff you posted about me and what you said about Graal, care me to show it?