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  #16  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:32 PM
Hezzy002 Hezzy002 is offline
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Go look at Java Graal's source and port the hit detection over.
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  #17  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Hezzy002 View Post
Go look at Java Graal's source and port the hit detection over.
Already looked at it, and I did see a small snippet of code Stefan had shown to Dan several years ago, but it only really confirmed what I had already suspected.
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  #18  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:41 PM
Crono Crono is offline
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Originally Posted by maximus_asinus View Post
Thor is right, what Crono described used to happen all the time on default. You would spar someone on 28.8k or 56k modem (or they were intentionally lagging) and the only defense for this was to swing where they were going which made it appear as if you were swinging across the screen.
Except it doesn't happen on other servers using the "default" system (nowadays that's really only UN and iClassic, neither have this problem).
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  #19  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
Except it doesn't happen on other servers using the "default" system (nowadays that's really only UN and iClassic, neither have this problem).


Look at this hit Blobz's opponent received on 17 seconds.
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2012, 12:18 AM
Crono Crono is offline
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Horrible example @ Blobz. Sparring people I've sparred on UN and iClassic on Classic felt completely different. The HD just reacts differently. I mean, I can't believe how obvious this is...

I don't hit people from awkward distances on either server, only on Classic. Maybe it's the level 3 shield thing, I don't know, but as an active player who actually plays multiple servers I can confirm that it's not the same. The only time it felt "real" was when we both sparred eachother with UDP on.

Whoever neg-repped me for like 1 point can **** off, it's not a "placebo effect".
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  #21  
Old 07-20-2012, 12:41 AM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crono View Post
Horrible example @ Blobz.
How is it a horrible example?
It clearly shows his opponent being hurt a whole 2-3 seconds after Blobz had slashed around that area. This backs up the idea that with the combination of default hit detection and lag a sparrer has to guess ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
Sparring people I've sparred on UN and iClassic on Classic felt completely different. The HD just reacts differently. I mean, I can't believe how obvious this is...
It's not obvious though, a lot of sparrers do not notice a difference, and those that claim to can either never explain it, or have some pre-conceived notion based on pre-wipe Classic's HD.

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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
I don't hit people from awkward distances on either server, only on Classic.
This is either due to some technicality involving the different machines the servers are hosted on, sheer coincidence, or a biased exaggeration. This behaviour is perfectly normal (even if confusing) to occur as a result of the default clientside hit detection mechanism, and is exactly what the video shows. There is nothing scripting wise on Classic that would be invoking a higher delay, synchronised variables are kept to a minimum where they might be used more wrecklessly on an older more dated server.

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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
Maybe it's the level 3 shield thing, I don't know, but as an active player who actually plays multiple servers I can confirm that it's not the same.
The movement speed being pixel perfect does mean it is not exactly the same as default, however the difference is only very slight (visually un-noticable), and is also more accurate.
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Crono Crono is offline
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You know what, I can go all day about how it's not the same (from first-hand experience, not being biased, etc) but I'm not going to bother. It's not what this thread is intended for anyway.
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2012, 01:01 AM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
You know what, I can go all day about how it's not the same (from first-hand experience, not being biased, etc) but I'm not going to bother.
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
nobody can ever come up with a reasonable explanation as to why they believe it is wrong.
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It would be good if someone can correct me if I'm wrong
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
That blink lasts between 0.55 - 1.95 seconds (again, good if someone can correct me if I'm wrong)
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
Unless I were to actually see the client's code or somebody were to offer a credible explanation as to why they think it might be wrong, there's nothing more I can do to possibly make it more similar
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There's nothing more I can do unless someone can actually explain it
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
a lot of sparrers do not notice a difference, and those that claim to can either never explain it, or have some pre-conceived notion based on pre-wipe Classic's HD.
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2012, 01:54 AM
Imperialistic Imperialistic is offline
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I don't really know how Crono can explain it more than he already did. On Classic you can hit someone from farther away than other servers, you really can't boil that down to anything more simple than that.

This isn't like an attack against your scripting, but something as a community (majority) would like to see changed.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2012, 02:27 AM
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this thread sucks
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2012, 02:50 AM
cbk1994 cbk1994 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperialistic View Post
I don't really know how Crono can explain it more than he already did. On Classic you can hit someone from farther away than other servers, you really can't boil that down to anything more simple than that.
That's a description of a symptom, not the underlying problem, and doesn't help much in trying to fix it. As Thor has said, it would help if someone could present some specifics on how to reproduce the problem (e.g. a specific case where Classic's HD registers a hit that the classic system's doesn't).

Where would you start in trying to fix this problem? There are a number of possible causes, and that's assuming that the problem even exists. It's like chasing ghosts to try to fix it when it can't be reliably reproduced. There's no way for him to know if a change he makes resolves the problem because it's impossible to test (it's based on the "gut feeling").

I always hate when I'm in the position Thor is in right now. There's really nothing he can do, but the players keep complaining. I suspect he could change back to classic HD without telling anybody and still get the same complaints.
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2012, 04:13 AM
Hezzy002 Hezzy002 is offline
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Why don't you run the hit detection/movement simulation with two NPCs while simultaneously using the same input with the default system and see if they go out of sync at any point? That'd be really cool to check out and it would give you definitive results.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2012, 06:16 AM
Imperialistic Imperialistic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk1994 View Post
That's a description of a symptom, not the underlying problem, and doesn't help much in trying to fix it. As Thor has said, it would help if someone could present some specifics on how to reproduce the problem (e.g. a specific case where Classic's HD registers a hit that the classic system's doesn't).

Where would you start in trying to fix this problem? There are a number of possible causes, and that's assuming that the problem even exists. It's like chasing ghosts to try to fix it when it can't be reliably reproduced. There's no way for him to know if a change he makes resolves the problem because it's impossible to test (it's based on the "gut feeling").

I always hate when I'm in the position Thor is in right now. There's really nothing he can do, but the players keep complaining. I suspect he could change back to classic HD without telling anybody and still get the same complaints.
Don't you think if we knew exactly what the problem was we would tell him? I mean we obviously want to see it fixed here, and we really don't have the privileges to check out scripts and certain things to troubleshoot.. and that is why we were trying to provide 'symptoms'.

What position is Thor in? I think you're over-thinking a little too much Chris, I'm merely just trying to get a point across about a symptom.. not to bash a very helpful developer.
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2012, 11:50 AM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hezzy002 View Post
Why don't you run the hit detection/movement simulation with two NPCs while simultaneously using the same input with the default system and see if they go out of sync at any point? That'd be really cool to check out and it would give you definitive results.
I've already debugged the 2 strenuously, for one example in the form of an offline and online NPC showing a 32 x 32 pixel polygon to represent boxes, and concluded that the basic hit mechanisms are like-for-like. I've even shown this to complainers and they've either become convinced, or rejected it with some belief that player damage checks are scripted differently to showcharacter() ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperialistic View Post
Don't you think if we knew exactly what the problem was we would tell him? I mean we obviously want to see it fixed here, and we really don't have the privileges to check out scripts and certain things to troubleshoot.. and that is why we were trying to provide 'symptoms'.
Certain people having this gut feeling that there's a problem but without being able to explain it isn't a good enough justification, such gut feelings have an unreliable tendency and often contradict the gut feelings of other people.

A short while ago, one of the most experienced sparrers on Graal said something like "this hit detection is better than UN's", which didn't make any sense, as to my best knowledge Classic's system is emulating default.
More recently, during the lag problems, they changed their mind to "this hit detection is worse than UN's", and were quite vehement in the suggestion that I must have changed the hit detection, when the system has been the same for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperialistic View Post
What position is Thor in? I think you're over-thinking a little too much Chris, I'm merely just trying to get a point across about a symptom.. not to bash a very helpful developer.
The problem with this alleged symptom is that it is perfectly normal behaviour for the default hit detection, and is therefore expected to occur within our scripted system. The suggestion that it does not occur eleswhere simply isn't true (see video), and even if it was, could easily be explained by circumstances such as the recent server lag problems, or being hosted on an inferior machine, rather than the scripting being off.

Unless someone were to provide a measurable suggestion, or I were to see all of the related client code, experimenting with changes would be like chasing ghosts as Chris said.
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  #30  
Old 07-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Crono Crono is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk1994 View Post
That's a description of a symptom, not the underlying problem, and doesn't help much in trying to fix it. As Thor has said, it would help if someone could present some specifics on how to reproduce the problem (e.g. a specific case where Classic's HD registers a hit that the classic system's doesn't).

Where would you start in trying to fix this problem? There are a number of possible causes, and that's assuming that the problem even exists. It's like chasing ghosts to try to fix it when it can't be reliably reproduced. There's no way for him to know if a change he makes resolves the problem because it's impossible to test (it's based on the "gut feeling").

I always hate when I'm in the position Thor is in right now. There's really nothing he can do, but the players keep complaining. I suspect he could change back to classic HD without telling anybody and still get the same complaints.
Next time there's a Classic spar tourney I will use Fraps and point out hits that shouldn't count. I'll upload the vid on YouTube. It's not something subtle either, it's incredibly obvious and other sparrers agree with me. I can't tell you why it's happening because I'm not a scripter, I'm just a player.

Lovely neg-rep @ the guy who repped w/ "I'm Crono and I ***** when ever someone proves me wrong.", even though I'm not even close to being wrong or proven wrong. lol
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