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  #16  
Old 12-27-2010, 02:39 AM
jacob_bald6225 jacob_bald6225 is offline
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Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
Loading in most games rarely takes more than a few seconds but it's still something that is considered lengthy because even though you think "seconds" when you're in the middle of a game, sitting there doing nothing seems like much longer.
But this isn't loading, it is setting a waypoint that you will respawn at if you die.
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  #17  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:02 AM
DustyPorViva DustyPorViva is offline
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Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225 View Post
But this isn't loading, it is setting a waypoint that you will respawn at if you die.
So? It could be accomplished in 2 seconds as well. The point is that it's unnecessary.
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:34 AM
jacob_bald6225 jacob_bald6225 is offline
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Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
So? It could be accomplished in 2 seconds as well. The point is that it's unnecessary.
It could be accomplished with a button too! The point is, I don't think 15 seconds makes or breaks the idea of using beds as check-points. To throw words around like "complications", "troublesome", and "a lot of work" for not hitting buttons on a keyboard for 15 seconds is just asinine.

It isn't like a quest would have a bed in every room.
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  #19  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:40 AM
WhiteDragon WhiteDragon is offline
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Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
So? It could be accomplished in 2 seconds as well. The point is that it's unnecessary.
I guess the part that needs to be explained here is 'unnecessary'.

Any obstacle in the game could be seen as, well, an obstacle: unnecessary and inconvenient.
But, the idea is that certain obstacles make the game more interesting, like, not being able to instantaneously heal, not being able to kill bosses just by slashing at them head-on, and not being able to just respawn where you died in the first place.

A delay on saving could be become one of these obstacles. "Should I waste time saving now or continue on the quest and risk dying and getting sent too far back?"


So my question is, what makes a delay on saving more annoying than any other obstacle to warrant its removal, and what are the general rules you're using to decide that?

Last edited by WhiteDragon; 12-27-2010 at 06:16 AM..
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  #20  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:43 AM
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  #21  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:49 AM
DustyPorViva DustyPorViva is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteDragon View Post
I guess the part that needs to be explained here is 'unnecessary'.

Anything obstacle in the game could be seen as, well, an obstacle: unnecessary and inconvenient.
But, the idea is that certain obstacles make the game more interesting, like, not being able to instantaneously heal, not being able to kill bosses just by slashing at them head-on, and not being able to just respawn where you died in the first place.

A delay on saving could be become one of these obstacles. "Should I waste time saving now or continue on the quest and risk dying and getting sent too far back?"


So my question is, what makes a delay on saving more annoying than any other obstacle to warrant its removal, and what are the general rules you're using to decide that?
Mainly because I consider checkpointing a feature to ease the frustration of a game, not some sort of major benefit. The only point of a save point is to save some time from repeating too many steps that they've already accomplished, or to save them time from walking from far place to another just because they died. Over and over.

However here it's being treated as though it's some powerful weapon that needs to be balanced and it doesn't. A quest is something that involves the player actively playing the game. You either have to walk around fetching stuff, or more complex quests like a dungeon in Zelda. However, either way you actually have to do something. Sitting in a bed just waiting is NOT fun. Do you think it'd be fun? Do you think it's okay to break the flow a player may be having just so they make sure when they die they don't have to do something redundant? I've recently played Braid and they have a secret star piece that you have to wait for TWO hours just to obtain. Doing nothing. Sitting there, waiting for a slow-ass cloud to move across the level. Now this isn't two hours of waiting but the point still remains that to force the player to do nothing is counter-productive to gaming.

All I'm saying is if I'm playing a game I want to keep active. If I'm questing and I need to change my save point I want to get into a bed and get out, because I have no interest in that bed other than making a save point and I see no reason to spend 15+ seconds there for no other reason when I could have made quite a bit of progress doing something constructive.
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2010, 06:36 AM
MattKan MattKan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
Mainly because I consider checkpointing a feature to ease the frustration of a game, not some sort of major benefit. The only point of a save point is to save some time from repeating too many steps that they've already accomplished, or to save them time from walking from far place to another just because they died. Over and over.

However here it's being treated as though it's some powerful weapon that needs to be balanced and it doesn't. A quest is something that involves the player actively playing the game. You either have to walk around fetching stuff, or more complex quests like a dungeon in Zelda. However, either way you actually have to do something. Sitting in a bed just waiting is NOT fun. Do you think it'd be fun? Do you think it's okay to break the flow a player may be having just so they make sure when they die they don't have to do something redundant? I've recently played Braid and they have a secret star piece that you have to wait for TWO hours just to obtain. Doing nothing. Sitting there, waiting for a slow-ass cloud to move across the level. Now this isn't two hours of waiting but the point still remains that to force the player to do nothing is counter-productive to gaming.

All I'm saying is if I'm playing a game I want to keep active. If I'm questing and I need to change my save point I want to get into a bed and get out, because I have no interest in that bed other than making a save point and I see no reason to spend 15+ seconds there for no other reason when I could have made quite a bit of progress doing something constructive.
Simple ways to solve this:
1) Add more save blocks and remove the beds
2) Lower the bed time to a maximum of 5 seconds
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:44 PM
ff7chocoboknight ff7chocoboknight is offline
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I love the constant nit-picking by people I haven't seen on the server for more than a few minutes.

How about instead of pointing out the faults, you tell us what we could do to fix it. I'm sure you can use your heads to do things other than trying to justify your points with chapters of posts.

"The time is too long."

Well, that's great. If we just change the time every time you go on a bed, with the current system, you'll almost instantly have an icon pop up in the middle of the screen. I would find that much more annoying than having to stay on the bed for 15 seconds.

Don't simply tell us what is wrong, tell us what we can do.

Now, I don't think the save system should change at all. Mostly because it's always the same people complaining. Normally I'd tell you to just not play if you do not like it, but Thor would be on my case. (Oops.) I can usually ignore the more annoying critics, however; when development progress is slowed, or even halted by these critics, it's difficult to ignore.

I don't feel like typing anymore.
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2010, 07:45 PM
DustyPorViva DustyPorViva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight View Post
I love the constant nit-picking by people I haven't seen on the server for more than a few minutes.

How about instead of pointing out the faults, you tell us what we could do to fix it. I'm sure you can use your heads to do things other than trying to justify your points with chapters of posts.

"The time is too long."

Well, that's great. If we just change the time every time you go on a bed, with the current system, you'll almost instantly have an icon pop up in the middle of the screen. I would find that much more annoying than having to stay on the bed for 15 seconds.

Don't simply tell us what is wrong, tell us what we can do.
There have been multiple suggestions for what to change it to. Stop acting like all people are trying to do is make the server look bad.
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2010, 09:39 PM
12171217 12171217 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight View Post
I love the constant nit-picking by people I haven't seen on the server for more than a few minutes.

How about instead of pointing out the faults, you tell us what we could do to fix it. I'm sure you can use your heads to do things other than trying to justify your points with chapters of posts.

"The time is too long."

Well, that's great. If we just change the time every time you go on a bed, with the current system, you'll almost instantly have an icon pop up in the middle of the screen. I would find that much more annoying than having to stay on the bed for 15 seconds.

Don't simply tell us what is wrong, tell us what we can do.

Now, I don't think the save system should change at all. Mostly because it's always the same people complaining. Normally I'd tell you to just not play if you do not like it, but Thor would be on my case. (Oops.) I can usually ignore the more annoying critics, however; when development progress is slowed, or even halted by these critics, it's difficult to ignore.

I don't feel like typing anymore.
Quote:
Why can't you just press A when you're in the bed instead or something? You could make it painfully obvious that they're save points, dim the screen and push some text over.
Quote:
Why not just have it checkpoint automatically at certain places?
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I ask though, what's wrong with making it instant? Where, from a developers perspective, is the benefit of making the player sit there doing nothing?
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How about the screen darkens and then the screen lights up again?
All in 5 seconds.
Quote:
How about just ask if you want to save when the player dies?
Quote:
It could be accomplished with a button too!
Everyone is open to the idea of beds as save points, but nobody wants to sit there and wait for 15 seconds so WD can have his "dramatic tension".

When everyone around you doesn't like what you have to say, that generally means you're wrong in some way. Classic is for the players, not WD's playground.
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  #26  
Old 12-28-2010, 12:44 AM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12171217 View Post
Everyone is open to the idea of beds as save points, but nobody wants to sit there and wait for 15 seconds so WD can have his "dramatic tension".

When everyone around you doesn't like what you have to say, that generally means you're wrong in some way. Classic is for the players, not WD's playground.
This is something that I pushed to implement, not WD, but if you're going to refer to it as a playground I strongly suggest looking at some of the current PlayerWorlds Tab servers first, especially Unholy Nation, because in comparison I find it nothing but laughable you'd claim this is the case with Classic, and as a result makes it that much more difficult to take you seriously when you do continue to nit-pick and not specifically over this but tonnes of different things that you have.

The changes I have made to cut down the waiting time, make it look more appealing and still maintain some slight realism are that you must now press A, however still wait about 3 seconds plus an additional second for every 10% of the HP it will heal as opposed to hop-in-hop-out while a darkness fade occurs.

Last edited by ffcmike; 03-10-2011 at 06:57 AM..
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