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  #1  
Old 05-21-2011, 06:47 PM
bloodykiller bloodykiller is offline
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gang limit

they say i only do posts for my own sake but the 25 member gang limit does not penalise me but weaker players who now won't be able to be in a gang
i think this wont help gang activity but damage it since there will be less members of each gang online so less raiding
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  #2  
Old 05-21-2011, 08:11 PM
hunterhunk hunterhunk is offline
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Originally Posted by bloodykiller View Post
they say i only do posts for my own sake but the 25 member gang limit does not penalise me but weaker players who now won't be able to be in a gang
i think this wont help gang activity but damage it since there will be less members of each gang online so less raiding
Not true at all.

1. It means you remove your players who don't play and have a tag for the sake of it. That means all 25 of your members need to be active, so you're quite wrong here.

2. This also makes it so new players improve their ability to spar/pk so they can make it in a gang and stay there.

In all, this actually does help gang activity a lot.


It also gives players an incentive to improve so they can participate in gang activities.
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2011, 08:16 PM
bloodykiller bloodykiller is offline
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if there is a limit is should be around 40, instead of having 10ppl per gang online at the same time there will be 5 so there will be less and smaller raids, ull see
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2011, 08:27 PM
Supaman771 Supaman771 is offline
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Slash is right, and basically used the same reasoning I thought of when I asked Alfonso to do this a few weeks ago.

Should be more competition to get into gangs, as well as activity to keep your position.
If everything works out, they could possibly bring back a fourth gang.. and finally have some fair KotH matches.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:50 PM
hunterhunk hunterhunk is offline
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Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
Slash is right, and basically used the same reasoning I thought of when I asked Alfonso to do this a few weeks ago.

Should be more competition to get into gangs, as well as activity to keep your position.
If everything works out, they could possibly bring back a fourth gang.. and finally have some fair KotH matches.
Exactly, it'll increase activity and competition.


On a side note though Rogue, I think Alfonso is working on updating the scripts of YenroY's old KoTH gmap, so that whole argument isn't exactly necessary, since YenroY's map is a lot different than the current one.
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2011, 09:12 PM
salesman salesman is offline
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Limiting the number of people who are allowed to join gangs isn't a good way to increase activity. A good way to increase activity would be to actually release content that makes players want to log on.

If someone didn't want to log on last week, what are you bringing to the table that will make them want to log on now? You're basically threatening them with "if you don't play enough you can't be in a gang". Great strategy.

The server pretty much revolves around gangs. There's what, 3 gangs now? You've just limited your player count to 75 players.

edit: new players are getting totally shafted. "new players will have to work hard to join gangs!!!" It shouldn't take months of training (not to mention earning money to buy a decent weapon) for new players to be able to participate.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:23 PM
fowlplay4 fowlplay4 is offline
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The problems with Era's gangs are the same ones I see with Zodiac's nations.

If gangs/nations were dynamic in the sense that players could create them without staff intervention the system wouldn't need this much moderation.

Capping and preventing players from participating in a certain aspect of the server isn't an incentive to get better (considering it's player controlled skill will probably have very little to do with it and instead rely more on social connections), it's a deterrent from actually getting to play the game.
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  #8  
Old 05-21-2011, 10:58 PM
Supaman771 Supaman771 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salesman View Post
A good way to increase activity would be to actually release content that makes players want to log on.
Which is easier said than done, judging by the fact that you never did it either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by salesman View Post
If someone didn't want to log on last week, what are you bringing to the table that will make them want to log on now? You're basically threatening them with "if you don't play enough you can't be in a gang". Great strategy.
That's how it should be... if a player is inactive and doesn't participate they shouldn't be allowed to log-in once a week and receive the benefits from that gang or have the privilege of playing in the events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salesman View Post
The server pretty much revolves around gangs. There's what, 3 gangs now? You've just limited your player count to 75 players.
As correct as your simple math is, this is hardly true. Even before the gang limits... only a fraction of the usual player count was in gangs. And I've never seen every member from every gang online at once. That argument hardly makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salesman View Post
edit: new players are getting totally shafted. "new players will have to work hard to join gangs!!!" It shouldn't take months of training (not to mention earning money to buy a decent weapon) for new players to be able to participate.
Not just new players, everyone will have to try their hardest to make that spot in their favorite gang. Earning money for a gun has nothing to do with it, that's an economic problem we've addressed in multiple other threads. And player's guns rarely ever match their ability/performance levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 View Post
The problems with Era's gangs are the same ones I see with Zodiac's nations.
/Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 View Post
If gangs/nations were dynamic in the sense that players could create them without staff intervention the system wouldn't need this much moderation.
/Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 View Post
Capping and preventing players from participating in a certain aspect of the server isn't an incentive to get better (considering it's player controlled skill will probably have very little to do with it and instead rely more on social connections), it's a deterrent from actually getting to play the game.
/Disagree
Like with what sales said 'server revolves around gangs'... the sorry fact is that this isn't true. Gangs are just another part of the server, some people would prefer to not join gangs and just be parties or play instruments or merchant. It is an incentive to some people, not to others; but that's how it was regardless of this update.

(Again that's how it was before as well, personal connections will be above skill on every server.. and just about every game for that matter.)

Again (x2), the deterrent was prior to this update as well, trying to control gangs and promote player activity amongst gangs didn't magically create all the deterrent of playing the game.


At least they're trying something... and it was decided upon by popular choice (in the gang council meeting), if it doesn't work then they can just get rid of it right?
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  #9  
Old 05-22-2011, 01:41 AM
salesman salesman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
Which is easier said than done, judging by the fact that you never did it either.
Ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
That's how it should be... if a player is inactive and doesn't participate they shouldn't be allowed to log-in once a week and receive the benefits from that gang or have the privilege of playing in the events.
Why not?

Not everyone can or wants to play daily...these people shouldn't be shafted out of being in a gang. I personally log on every so often to join in on gang raids or gang events, but now I've likely been removed from my gang.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
As correct as your simple math is, this is hardly true. Even before the gang limits... only a fraction of the usual player count was in gangs. And I've never seen every member from every gang online at once. That argument hardly makes sense.
My statement was a bit exaggerated to emphasize my point. Limiting the number of people who are able to participate in one of the things that makes Era, Era, is a terrible idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
Not just new players, everyone will have to try their hardest to make that spot in their favorite gang. Earning money for a gun has nothing to do with it, that's an economic problem we've addressed in multiple other threads. And player's guns rarely ever match their ability/performance levels.
Gangs shouldn't be exclusive. Exclusivity has always been a huge problem on Era, and new players are often driven away because they don't stand a chance. This update does nothing but drive away new players (and also casual players such as myself who like to participate in gang activities on occasion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
Like with what sales said 'server revolves around gangs'... the sorry fact is that this isn't true. Gangs are just another part of the server, some people would prefer to not join gangs and just be parties or play instruments or merchant. It is an incentive to some people, not to others; but that's how it was regardless of this update.
You cannot compare the importance of gangs to instruments or merchanting. You just can't.
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Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
At least they're trying something... and it was decided upon by popular choice (in the gang council meeting), if it doesn't work then they can just get rid of it right?
It's been tried before (more than once!). It didn't work. Last I checked there was a poll and the majority said that they didn't want a limit?
Click image for larger version

Name:	ganglimitpoll.png
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Size:	31.6 KB
ID:	52915

edit: a whopping 16 people voted for the 25-man member limit...way to listen to your players!
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  #10  
Old 05-22-2011, 02:17 AM
Demisis_P2P Demisis_P2P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salesman View Post
Limiting the number of people who are allowed to join gangs isn't a good way to increase activity. A good way to increase activity would be to actually release content that makes players want to log on.

If someone didn't want to log on last week, what are you bringing to the table that will make them want to log on now? You're basically threatening them with "if you don't play enough you can't be in a gang". Great strategy.

The server pretty much revolves around gangs. There's what, 3 gangs now? You've just limited your player count to 75 players.

edit: new players are getting totally shafted. "new players will have to work hard to join gangs!!!" It shouldn't take months of training (not to mention earning money to buy a decent weapon) for new players to be able to participate.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 View Post
The problems with Era's gangs are the same ones I see with Zodiac's nations.

If gangs/nations were dynamic in the sense that players could create them without staff intervention the system wouldn't need this much moderation.

Capping and preventing players from participating in a certain aspect of the server isn't an incentive to get better (considering it's player controlled skill will probably have very little to do with it and instead rely more on social connections), it's a deterrent from actually getting to play the game.
And this.

On paper I can see how "gangs will only add active players" seems like it'd work, but in practice nobody is going to kick their friends out of their gang and recruit somebody that they don't like just for points -- which mean nothing anyway. So in the end you might actually get some gang reform immediately after this change, but in the end gangs will revert and end up just being less active than before.

I also understand that on the flip side it's hard to make points meaningful without a member limit, because without one the winning gang is normally just the gang which zergs the most. In which instance maybe an "on-tag limit" would be better than a hard member cap? But going back to what Jerret said, maybe we should automate the whole thing and just not care?

Maybe it'd be best to just create an automated gang system where gangs can be promoted from and demoted back to party status depending on their week-to-week performance? And then never have to worry about them again.
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  #11  
Old 05-22-2011, 06:03 AM
Dragon551 Dragon551 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salesman View Post
It's been tried before (more than once!). It didn't work. Last I checked there was a poll and the majority said that they didn't want a limit?
Attachment 52915

edit: a whopping 16 people voted for the 25-man member limit...way to listen to your players!
Actually, I did. The majority of the people voted "yes". So I added the limit. However, they also voted for it to be a 30 gang limit. I put a 25 gang limit yesterday after speaking with the leaders of the gangs. Afterwards, I remembered 30 won the poll in the first place so a few hours/minutes later I changed the limit to 30. So yes, it is 30 right now.
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2011, 07:19 AM
The_Federov The_Federov is offline
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I support 15 players in a gang, if that.
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2011, 08:01 AM
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Stupid meaningless idea, yet again.
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  #14  
Old 05-22-2011, 09:57 AM
fowlplay4 fowlplay4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon551 View Post
Actually, I did. The majority of the people voted "yes". So I added the limit. However, they also voted for it to be a 30 gang limit. I put a 25 gang limit yesterday after speaking with the leaders of the gangs. Afterwards, I remembered 30 won the poll in the first place so a few hours/minutes later I changed the limit to 30. So yes, it is 30 right now.
Spoiler: It doesn't work and in a few months you're probably going to adjust the cap, change leaders around, and end up exactly where you left off but this time you're even more stressed out as a result.
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  #15  
Old 05-22-2011, 03:26 PM
WillaWonka WillaWonka is offline
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If we had average 200 players online then 50 cap, but since we have 80 average, a 25 cap is best.
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