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  #16  
Old 01-07-2015, 05:33 PM
xDarkTAx xDarkTAx is offline
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Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P View Post
My only hope is that whoever gets the job doesn't add a hard member limit to gangs.
What stops everyone from just joining the best gang then? Even with a member limit gangs usually still have a top dog, now keep that good gang and let them recruit every graal# on the street that ask to join and now the top gang has an army of people to hold D in raids. IMO you need a gang limit.

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Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P View Post
I honestly would be so happy if I could log on and not be removed from a gang because of the member limit. And then in order to add me back somebody else gets removed and they're bound to be annoyed when they log back on as well.
There is already a penalty for kicking someone, you lose the points they gained that week. Either you are getting very few points or showing up so little to raid that at the end of the week you're not worth the slot. If you find yourself unable to stay in a gang you need to put more effort into showing your worth.
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:20 PM
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Gang limits are bullshit. Good gangs should be handicapped by other means.
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  #18  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:36 PM
Demisis_P2P Demisis_P2P is offline
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Originally Posted by xDarkTAx View Post
What stops everyone from just joining the best gang then? Even with a member limit gangs usually still have a top dog, now keep that good gang and let them recruit every graal# on the street that ask to join and now the top gang has an army of people to hold D in raids. IMO you need a gang limit.
Because if everyone joins the best gang there will be a queue for them to get on tag. Even if 70/100 players online are all in one gang, each gang will only be allowed to have 20 players on tag at once, so 50 of those players will be off tag, and the 20 that are actually on tag would be fighting for scraps if there are only a few members of each other gang online.
There are plenty of other ways you can incentivise talent distribution between gangs but that goes deeper into a gang system and not just an idea for not exluding players from participating at all.

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Originally Posted by xDarkTAx View Post
There is already a penalty for kicking someone, you lose the points they gained that week. Either you are getting very few points or showing up so little to raid that at the end of the week you're not worth the slot. If you find yourself unable to stay in a gang you need to put more effort into showing your worth.
Yeah, that's not how this should work. I shouldn't have to make Era my full time job when I already work 60 hours a week just to be able to PK with my friends and have some fun. There aren't any raids on at the times that I log on during the week so I have to resort to street PKing which is very slow going. Without a member limit my 100-120 points a week could be the difference between a gang coming first or second for the week though.
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  #19  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:24 PM
SharkeySprinkles SharkeySprinkles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P View Post
One potential solution is to keep the number of gangs low and have no member limit but have an "on-tag limit" that shifts with the current playercount.
e.g. With 4 gangs and 100 players online each gang could have 20 players on tag. But with 40 players online they might only by allowed to have 8. This way there is a pool of players online but not on-tag who could come on tag when other players log off, increasing the odds that each gang will always have close to the maximum number of players on tag.
You could use gang rank to determine the pecking order, so if a recuit is on tag and the co-leader signs on and gets on tag the recruit gets a message saying they've been taken off tag. If both players are the same rank use weekly gang points to break the tie. This also works to ensure that the best players get the highest ranks in gangs, and not just the leader's best friend who lends him guns all the time but can't PK.
If any gang is stacked, hopefully this will be enough to tempt some players to leave for higher ranks in other gangs.

Something like this should help with gang activity a fair bit, then you just need to work on the other systems a bit to keep the members interested and coming back for more.
I really like this idea and am going to look into potentially using all of it or parts of it towards our current system.
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  #20  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:42 PM
Supaman771 Supaman771 is offline
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Originally Posted by SharkeySprinkles View Post
I really like this idea and am going to look into potentially using all of it or parts of it towards our current system.
How do we determine which players get to use X tags at any given time? I'm not going to leave my gang (and lose loyalty) to join one with open slots. Likewise my leader isn't going to remove me (and lose my contributions).

I feel like this would be worse than the current problem. If you don't produce/aren't good enough to warrant having a spot in a top gang then you're going to be removed... it's been that way forever (even when there weren't member limits).

Just go back to letting anyone make their own gang and it solves both problems honestly.
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  #21  
Old 01-08-2015, 03:37 AM
Demisis_P2P Demisis_P2P is offline
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Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
How do we determine which players get to use X tags at any given time? I'm not going to leave my gang (and lose loyalty) to join one with open slots. Likewise my leader isn't going to remove me (and lose my contributions).

I feel like this would be worse than the current problem. If you don't produce/aren't good enough to warrant having a spot in a top gang then you're going to be removed... it's been that way forever (even when there weren't member limits).

Just go back to letting anyone make their own gang and it solves both problems honestly.
Was in my first post, players would be allowed on tag according to their gang rank, and if they're the same gang rank use current weekly gang score to break the tie. This way the gang always has their "best" players on tag.
This also creates an incentive for gangs to actively promote and demote players based on skill, and gives the gang leader something to do in terms of actually managing the gang to ensure they have their best team in the right ranks.

Leaving probably isn't something you have to worry about Rogue because you're a decent PKer and you're active so you'd get a spot on tag all the time.
But for less active people and not so good PKers Im sure most of them wouldn't care as much about loyalty if it means they get to join a gang where they can be on tag and are able to start earning some gang points and getting rewarded for it.
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  #22  
Old 01-08-2015, 05:32 AM
Supaman771 Supaman771 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P View Post
Was in my first post, players would be allowed on tag according to their gang rank, and if they're the same gang rank use current weekly gang score to break the tie. This way the gang always has their "best" players on tag.
This also creates an incentive for gangs to actively promote and demote players based on skill, and gives the gang leader something to do in terms of actually managing the gang to ensure they have their best team in the right ranks.
Yes that's precisely the issue..
The players who login Monday would get the first jump on raiding; and would be shoed-into a tag for the rest of the week. If I log in Wednesday I may never even get on a tag to earn my points/rank in order to maintain the tag. I am totally out of the loop.

But that's not the individual "I"... obviously I would login Wednesday and have my rank changed so that even if you earned your 1000 points to keep your tag on; now you can't use it. Ha ha. Meanwhile the gang suffers no penalty and that player is stuck there on the back-burner... if they leave they have to re-earn those 1000 points elsewhere; but their new gang would be that much further behind.

As opposed to now. If a gang leader wants the 'better player' that logged on Wednesday to replace X player they have to choose.. because removing that player removes his contributions and he can freely sign elsewhere without losing any ground; so you may not be the top gang for long if you keep doing that. (I saw this occur just about a month ago; a top 4 gang removed an offline member to add a top player for events... removing that member made them lose so many points (double-point was on) that they were no longer a top 4 gang. So my 5th place gang instantly qualified for events... and we ended up adding the top player they wanted; ez.)

I feel like this has the complete opposite effect you're aiming for.
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2015, 06:02 AM
TheLinkMan2002 TheLinkMan2002 is offline
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The performance based tag allotment would never work, especially for the points rogue brought up. If u miss a day you could be out all week even if you are actually better than the other 20. With a system like that, you don't even really get a shot for redemption. I will argue the draft until the day I die, I wish people werent so against fighting their friends. I think competition is fun.

I'm currently working on an idea that implements the current system and the draft, but I'm still thinking it out. The idea is kind of similar to football drafts where every week people can exchange players for other players based on some sort of rating system. Also at this point all the other bases don't get nearly as much activity as bhpk. The way things are looking now the best route would be small gangs again and 24/7 bhpk essentially.
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2015, 06:40 AM
Demisis_P2P Demisis_P2P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supaman771 View Post
Yes that's precisely the issue..
The players who login Monday would get the first jump on raiding; and would be shoed-into a tag for the rest of the week. If I log in Wednesday I may never even get on a tag to earn my points/rank in order to maintain the tag. I am totally out of the loop.

But that's not the individual "I"... obviously I would login Wednesday and have my rank changed so that even if you earned your 1000 points to keep your tag on; now you can't use it. Ha ha. Meanwhile the gang suffers no penalty and that player is stuck there on the back-burner... if they leave they have to re-earn those 1000 points elsewhere; but their new gang would be that much further behind.

As opposed to now. If a gang leader wants the 'better player' that logged on Wednesday to replace X player they have to choose.. because removing that player removes his contributions and he can freely sign elsewhere without losing any ground; so you may not be the top gang for long if you keep doing that.

I feel like this has the complete opposite effect you're aiming for.
I don't think it will be such a big issue when the tag limit scales with the player count.
What percentage of the playercount are on gang tags at any one point in time at the moment? Using the example numbers that I pulled out of thin air that only leaves the worst 20% of players online at any one time unable to get on tag, and a lot of those players might not even be in any gang. This number will probably have to change.

That player with 1000 points wouldn't lose his tag, it would flow on down the line and little timmy with 40 points would be kicked off his tag.
It's perfectly reasonable that a player logging on for the first time on Wednesday could jump straight on tag even if they're the lowest rank in their gang, as long as the player count is high enough or if there aren't a lot of other active people in their gang at that time.

In order to keep a tag you wouldn't need to keep up with with king hitters like Wil and ParkHeights, you'd just need to not be one of the lowest ranked and worst players in your timezone, which is prefectly reasonable.
At the moment Black Holst has the most points of any gang with 1912 points.
They have 20 members, and 6 of those have less than 30 points each.

Gang points stay with the player don't they? So if somebody get promoted above me and I don't like it and I leave, the gang still loses those points and I still have them?

If breaking the tie by gang points proves to be a problem then change it to something else not gang related (total kills? kd ratio?), but I firmly believe that having a system that lets a percentage of the entire playerbase regardless of when or how often they play take part in gang activity is much better than a system that excludes a majority of players from being in gangs completely.
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2015, 07:10 AM
Godzilla Godzilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P View Post
and little timmy with 40 points would be kicked off his tag.
Timmy is our best player, kick him off tag and you might as well kick our whole gang out for the week.
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  #26  
Old 01-08-2015, 05:54 PM
Zongui Zongui is offline
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one thing i agree on for sure is that swift was right when he said he made a mistake in his latest gang change before quitting.
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2015, 06:40 PM
Cubical Cubical is offline
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Fret no longer peasants, I am here to fufill all your 'Gang Admin' needs. As my first act gangs will now be referred to as 'Piddlepaddle's' and as a nice side bonus Jer and Bloodykiller are now to only be addressed by the names 'Daisy' and 'Selena Gomez.' Thank you for your time and many similar updates in the near future.
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2015, 06:58 PM
Venom_Fish Venom_Fish is offline
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I think Demisis' idea sounds good. The counterarguments you all raise are trivial, and even if meritorious, would arise in such rare instances that they are not worth dismissing the value of this idea in general. If someone is Wil Soul, they'll probably end up with a bang-up rank regardless of what day they log on. If you non-Wil Souls are concerned about it, instead of calculating points based on weekly totals, you could find another measure. This could be daily totals, or based on categorical measurement of raid totals. Regardless of how you do it, there are ways around your objections short of nixing this idea. #wilsoulout
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  #29  
Old 01-08-2015, 08:29 PM
Kohola_KinG Kohola_KinG is offline
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Congratulations and good luck to Ty.
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  #30  
Old 01-08-2015, 09:14 PM
Kohola_KinG Kohola_KinG is offline
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Well, it seems Xloria his brother is now gang admin. He applied on both accounts? Seems a little unfair but good luck nevertheless. I hope he has matured, i worry about this decision. This is the same guy who use to mass repeatedly for staff to perma ban him. I hope he proves me wrong though.
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