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  #1  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:53 AM
konidias konidias is offline
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Graal as a game engine?

Why doesn't Graal start licensing out the engine as a general online game engine?

It's practically there already, they'd simply need to create a way for people to have their own account creation systems and some sort of simple way for their players to pay for the accounts.

I think I'd probably buy the engine myself if they ever chose to do it. Basically what I'd like to see is the Graal engine sold much like the Torque engine is sold now. Think of it, Torque was originally an engine for a FPS and later changed into a game development engine.

Graal already has a scripting language, level editor, animation editor, remote control for admins, server hosting, base graphics.. the list goes on and on. Sure, hosting your player server is neat and all... but people want the freedom to make their own game and go by their own rules and have their own community and make some profit. Why not give them that option?

There could be different packages available also... I'm not suggesting just sell the engine and call it a day... there could be a basic package which only gives you a license to use the engine but you have to have a cyberjouers splash screen or you can only make so much profit off of the game before you have to buy a more expensive package. (like an indie and pro version)

Of course it would also be nice to have the pro package (which would cost a lot more) and allow total freedom of the engine and not have to be tied down or affiliated to Graal or cyberjouers in any way.

Right now it is obvious that there are a lot of people interested in developing games on Graal... so I think it's an obvious choice to give these people more freedom at a higher price.

There are a ton of threads about how Graal is dying as a game... how the playercount is dropping, etc. But Graal could succeed as a game development engine.

There isn't a good 2D/semi-3D online game engine out there as of now. Sure there is Torque and a handful of others but none offer such a quick setup for getting players online in a game world.

The thing is that server renting is just not cutting it. People here who develop know that the server and all of the content they make doesn't really belong to them... they know they can't really profit from their server... what is driving people to actually want to make a Graal server?

Honestly I think selling the engine would be a huge boost in profits. You'd bring in a ton of people who are indie game developers who would love to get their hands on such a robust online game engine.

If anything, at least it's something to think about when Graal is on it's last leg. I don't think it would take much effort converting it into a game development platform... like I said, it's pretty much already there.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:19 AM
DustyPorViva DustyPorViva is offline
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I wish he would focus more on Graal as a game-engine. It's all already there, it's extremely simple to get into... the only problem is the offline mode has been abandoned. Really, all he'd need to do is add in some saving feature and I/O functions to the offline, as well as simple ways for people to package everything as one 'game' and he'd have a fully functional game-engine.

It's a pity, and I think I've brought it up before.

The main reason I say this is because online gameplay is extremely complicated and there is so much balance and things to think of... offline games can be a lot simpler and I think by now I'd be able to churn out a half-decent game with Graal if it had saving and such.

It's not a bad idea, but I think Stefan has no interest.
(I'm going to admit I haven't read your post yet Koni, but it's late and I will tomorrow.)
  #3  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:20 AM
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I didnt read most of that but i think CJ does or used to awhile ago. Didnt hear anyone buying a license
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konidias View Post
Why doesn't Graal start licensing out the engine as a general online game engine?

It's practically there already, they'd simply need to create a way for people to have their own account creation systems and some sort of simple way for their players to pay for the accounts.

I think I'd probably buy the engine myself if they ever chose to do it. Basically what I'd like to see is the Graal engine sold much like the Torque engine is sold now. Think of it, Torque was originally an engine for a FPS and later changed into a game development engine.

Graal already has a scripting language, level editor, animation editor, remote control for admins, server hosting, base graphics.. the list goes on and on. Sure, hosting your player server is neat and all... but people want the freedom to make their own game and go by their own rules and have their own community and make some profit. Why not give them that option?

There could be different packages available also... I'm not suggesting just sell the engine and call it a day... there could be a basic package which only gives you a license to use the engine but you have to have a cyberjouers splash screen or you can only make so much profit off of the game before you have to buy a more expensive package. (like an indie and pro version)

Of course it would also be nice to have the pro package (which would cost a lot more) and allow total freedom of the engine and not have to be tied down or affiliated to Graal or cyberjouers in any way.

Right now it is obvious that there are a lot of people interested in developing games on Graal... so I think it's an obvious choice to give these people more freedom at a higher price.

There are a ton of threads about how Graal is dying as a game... how the playercount is dropping, etc. But Graal could succeed as a game development engine.

There isn't a good 2D/semi-3D online game engine out there as of now. Sure there is Torque and a handful of others but none offer such a quick setup for getting players online in a game world.

The thing is that server renting is just not cutting it. People here who develop know that the server and all of the content they make doesn't really belong to them... they know they can't really profit from their server... what is driving people to actually want to make a Graal server?

Honestly I think selling the engine would be a huge boost in profits. You'd bring in a ton of people who are indie game developers who would love to get their hands on such a robust online game engine.

If anything, at least it's something to think about when Graal is on it's last leg. I don't think it would take much effort converting it into a game development platform... like I said, it's pretty much already there.
If you recall Cyberjoueurs dabbling in licensing Fairyland, that's the situation they appear to be toying with for Graal Online.

They've converted their game engine to a number of portable consoles, mainly the Apple SDK for iTouch and iPhone (although we've seen many previous examples of the portable game engine). They've established some clout already with their bomberman, and they have a few Graal Online titles ready for approval.

My opinion of this move, if I have interpreted it correctly, is a little foul. They're trying to skip a step; where regular games would first develop a product (establishing a community with which to advertise the merits of their product) and then try to market it they seem to have went halfway.

Developing the client richly (although a little narrow) for the last few years, the engine has flourished - but when it comes to the community aspect they have not made nearly as much progress. If the product can be sold (licensed) on the merits of the engine alone, all of the power to them - but I don't think it can, and as a result I think this is wasted effort which could be better spent developing a rich community.



What if they succeed? I really believe Graal Online - as we know it - will cease to exist. To literally cut their losses they very likely close or greatly limit (either through poorly made decisions ie. over priced services, or through literal removal of services) the game we've all grown up on. Why continue developing for a product where the community has been ignored and possibly even mistreated for so many years? We've seen examples time and time again. Where they previously relied on *us* to make their profits they could license the engine and enjoy the profits - leaving the community aspect to the developers of the product they license.

It's their product, and in all aspects of commitments (legally, morally) theirs to do as they wish with it. But I really hope they don't forget the community which, without, they would have never had the profit and support they needed to get to the point of their success - and I do believe they will eventually see some success if they keep developing it as a portable product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
It's not a bad idea, but I think Stefan has no interest.
(I'm going to admit I haven't read your post yet Koni, but it's late and I will tomorrow.)
I don't mean to sound aggressive, but this sounds like a misconception.

Stefan doesn't usually get to persue his own interests, and when he does it's often on his own time. He is no man, but a machine - a true code monkey. During regular work hours Stefan is committed to developing products which coincide with the development path Unixmad has devised (portable products, iPhone, iTouch, etc). And in his free time you will often see Stefan up until all hours on the weekends and throughout the week working on Zone, and recently a lot of nice updates to the mudlib for GK.

So it shouldn't be thought that Stefan has the fun of persuing his own interests - he's the only developer for Graal Online, as a game engine. He has to do his job first, then his fun when he has a chance.
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  #5  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:38 AM
konidias konidias is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesmoothcriminal View Post
I didnt read most of that but i think CJ does or used to awhile ago. Didnt hear anyone buying a license
True, the website does list a licensing option in their services tab on their site. (http://www.cyberjoueurs.com)

But there is no price listed and who knows that they are asking... Plus I'm not really sure what this license entitles the buyer.... They haven't updated this page in years and I'm assuming nobody has licensed Graal.

I'm hoping for something more like Torque or DX Studio or something like that where there is actually an indie version and an affordable pro version (for a few thousand dollars or something) Also for them to have support for the engine and something more than some page that sort of hints at a license of some sort.

Offline mode would be nice but I'd be perfectly fine with online mode being the only option... It's incredibly hard to get a game engine to actually work online and allow players to connect to the server and play on it without having to know advanced programming. Graal already has it covered and I think it could do well if it just licensed the engine instead of hosting servers... It wouldn't even need to pay for servers anymore because that would be the developer's job.

Once you buy the Graal engine you don't have to affiliate it with Graal or cyberjouers and you could change everything about it to make it seem like you're own game.

Obviously this really couldn't happen as long as Graal is trying to profit from the game side... as people could just buy the Graal engine, make a clone of Graal and try to steal away Graal's playerbase.

The only reason I suggested this engine idea is because Graal isn't exactly at the top of it's game anymore, and it can't even be considered an MMO. But it sure could make a decent game engine for others to create their own games.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:51 AM
DustyPorViva DustyPorViva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
So it shouldn't be thought that Stefan has the fun of persuing his own interests - he's the only developer for Graal Online, as a game engine. He has to do his job first, then his fun when he has a chance.
What I mean is Stefan(or perhaps CJ for technicalities) isn't interested in offline anything anymore, and wants to strictly focus on online gameplay. By not interested, I mean they pretty much don't really care about it anymore... from a 'fun' standpoint or a 'business'. This is just what I have gathered from various things said by Stefan over the years.
  #7  
Old 02-21-2009, 10:01 AM
Stephen Stephen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
What I mean is Stefan(or perhaps CJ for technicalities) isn't interested in offline anything anymore, and wants to strictly focus on online gameplay. By not interested, I mean they pretty much don't really care about it anymore... from a 'fun' standpoint or a 'business'. This is just what I have gathered from various things said by Stefan over the years.
As far as I can tell, Cybourjoueurs as a company has shelved the majority of their support for Graal Online, with minimal efforts being put into a new client (coincides with portable development). Any support Graal Online sees APPEARS to come from Stefan in his free time.

There were a few efforts made by player developers to make decent in-game level editors, and such. It's not offline, but it's a step in the right direction... I guess?
e: It's unusual the gscript crew haven't stepped up to the challenge of a decent offline editor, this seems right up their alley.
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
As far as I can tell, Cybourjoueurs as a company has shelved the majority of their support for Graal Online, with minimal efforts being put into a new client (coincides with portable development). Any support Graal Online sees APPEARS to come from Stefan in his free time.

There were a few efforts made by player developers to make decent in-game level editors, and such. It's not offline, but it's a step in the right direction... I guess?
e: It's unusual the gscript crew haven't stepped up to the challenge of a decent offline editor, this seems right up their alley.
Afaik the new offline editor gconstruct is sadly rather dead..

Ive never seen an application for Graal Online support, I doubt that it would be hard to get some help for this. Iam professional helpdesk worker for business software, probaply more people are.
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Old 02-21-2009, 03:31 PM
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Google 'quattro engine + game'. That's the graal engine being licensed. If you need proof, look in the 2D section....
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Old 02-21-2009, 03:38 PM
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They are even advertising the stolen crossfire code.....
http://quattroengine.com/index.php/Features/Mudlib is this the end of Graal, or a new beginning as licensing would make engine updates more likely.

Is this even possible with having torque licensed?
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Old 02-21-2009, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by konidias View Post
True, the website does list a licensing option in their services tab on their site. (http://www.cyberjoueurs.com)

But there is no price listed and who knows that they are asking... Plus I'm not really sure what this license entitles the buyer.... They haven't updated this page in years and I'm assuming nobody has licensed Graal.
http://www.eurocenter.fr/index.php

They use that site now by the looks of it.
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:31 PM
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http://www.eurocenter.fr/index.php

They use that site now by the looks of it.
Sounds a bit overdone, they can't even run one game with constant updates and good support, whats about a gaming engine + graal?
No good decision.
  #13  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:58 PM
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Yeah the thing is... neither of these websites lists a price. It's pretty much assumed when no price is listed that they are going to ask for some outrageous amount of money that no indie developer could ever afford.

Neither website is even finished either.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konidias View Post
Yeah the thing is... neither of these websites lists a price. It's pretty much assumed when no price is listed that they are going to ask for some outrageous amount of money that no indie developer could ever afford.

Neither website is even finished either.
Both are probably made to market at trade shows. You could try inquiring.
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Old 02-21-2009, 10:52 PM
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It would be nice to see someone else purchase this game that has some real money to spend.
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