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  #16  
Old 11-09-2011, 06:39 AM
Venom_Fish Venom_Fish is offline
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@ffcmike&fowlplay4
Still juggling it around in my head, but it seems like that fowlplay4 just provided a very valuable insight in his describing the effects of the facebook/iphone VIP access on Classic Facebook.

Seeing as Graal is a social game, there's a natural tendency to migrate to wherever is most populated. Perhaps if PC players are granted the option to vacate their 50-60 average playerbase server for one(s) averaging 1000+, this would, with proven certainty, drastically drain the playerbase of PC graal.

In reference to your argument, the existence of PC Graal seems crucial to the progressive development of these more densely populated servers.

However, I still want to further the inquiry, seeing as most development/developers tend to rent private servers for their work and/or enjoy building their own pieces. Although most of these pieces are unsuccessful in their rise to popularity or even completion, few servers do stem out.

In short, players tend to migrate to where its most populated.
Developers normally migrate to where its least populated.
However, they tend to direct the fruits of their labor to said populated areas.

Therefore, would the assimilation of these separate platforms really affect development?

In a worst case scenario, wouldn't PC Graal just turn into a development-only platform?

Also, if so many eager developers stemmed from such a small overall playerbase before, wouldn't the number simply increase with a now larger pool?
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  #17  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish
@ffcmike&fowlplay4
You do know how to use quotations on this forum, right?
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
In short, players tend to migrate to where its most populated.
Developers normally migrate to where its least populated.
However, they tend to direct the fruits of their labor to said populated areas.

Therefore, would the assimilation of these separate platforms really affect development?
The majority of developers who work on hidden servers are inexperienced/unproven, and aren't able to create successful new servers or new resources that could generate significant income.
Not only this, but getting a new server onto the list where it can then maintain a playercount has to be the single biggest motivation, even if it is unrealistic.
Getting a new server onto an iDevice/Facebook would be even harder due to the lower capabilities, higher need for such a server to perform, not to mention the endorsement of Stefan, who is also probably going to want such resources to be tested in a populated environment first anyway.

Much of the better developers are already involved with established servers (if anywhere), where however much of the work operates on a smaller time scale focussed around entertaining the current population. When it comes to redeveloping older servers, nobody has yet managed to break back through, few have remained motivated to continue their project in the absence of a playercount.

It also has to be considered that while there would still be a lot of interest from players to rent a server (LOL LOOK AT ME I HAVE STAFF BOOTS), much of the scripts added to rented servers are copied from the code gallery, generally (not always ofcourse) by scripters involved with established servers.
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
The majority of developers who work on hidden servers are inexperienced/unproven, and aren't able to create successful new servers or new resources that could generate significant income.
Not only this, but getting a new server onto the list where it can then maintain a playercount has to be the single biggest motivation, even if it is unrealistic.
Getting a new server onto an iDevice/Facebook would be even harder due to the lower capabilities, higher need for such a server to perform, not to mention the endorsement of Stefan, who is also probably going to want such resources to be tested in a populated environment first anyway.

Much of the better developers are already involved with established servers (if anywhere), where however much of the work operates on a smaller time scale focussed around entertaining the current population. When it comes to redeveloping older servers, nobody has yet managed to break back through, few have remained motivated to continue their project in the absence of a playercount.

It also has to be considered that while there would still be a lot of interest from players to rent a server (LOL LOOK AT ME I HAVE STAFF BOOTS), much of the scripts added to rented servers are copied from the code gallery, generally (not always ofcourse) by scripters involved with established servers.
Hm, valid argument.
However, in a more factored and general form, the majority of developers are inexperienced/unproven and, as you stated, the few experienced developers, for the most part, are engaged in established servers.

In reference to all this, the question still remains unanswered and
the effects of VIP Access to all platforms still seems to be mainly pertinent to players.

Also, I cannot give much validation to your argument for an isolated PC Graal simply for the maintenance of a test-based population. I must deny this validation due to the fact that most of the servers that are now on the Classic Tab stemmed from UC Servers who vigilantly pursued the unrealistic goal of "Classic" status.

In retrospect, these UC servers developed a distinct popularity while still underground.

That being said, why will this sort of development, which has been the way for lord knows how long, be affected by the shifting of the playerbase to a more densely populated platform? When after all, the playerbase has always shifted to where it was most densely populated.

The only developmental effects I see, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be the coming insignificance of current Classic Servers/Status. Their loss of population would be similar to that of Gold Servers and henceforth their established developers would be at a loss, which would either motivate them to improve their performance, concepts, and direction, or ultimately falter and resign.

In short, wouldn't Classic/Gold become comparable to Hosted (better developed UC Servers), and universal iPhone/Facebook servers become an assimilation of what we knew as Classic/Gold? Basically, the popularity of Classic Servers, at the price of Gold.

All in all, it seems like a very lucrative approach, doesn't it?
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
Also, I cannot give much validation to your argument for an isolated PC Graal simply for the maintenance of a test-based population. I must deny this validation due to the fact that most of the servers that are now on the Classic Tab stemmed from UC Servers who vigilantly pursued the unrealistic goal of "Classic" status.
I should clarify that I'm not arguing in favour of what I feel is the best solution, but the impression I have obtained as to the purpose of PC Graal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
That being said, why will this sort of development, which has been the way for lord knows how long, be affected by the shifting of the playerbase to a more densely populated platform? When after all, the playerbase has always shifted to where it was most densely populated.
PC Graal becoming sparsely populated in favour of higher playerbases on different platforms could possibly result in development becoming more exclusive to the elite. In terms of meaningful development this won't make much difference at first, but in taking away the albeit false perception among newer players that they could have their own server being played by a lot of players, this could reduce the more real incentive of new players to learn development for themself.

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Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
In short, wouldn't Classic/Gold become comparable to Hosted (better developed UC Servers), and universal iPhone/Facebook servers become an assimilation of what we knew as Classic/Gold? Basically, the popularity of Classic Servers, at the price of Gold.

All in all, it seems like a very lucrative approach, doesn't it?
Again I think this is where you have to weigh up how many players would be willing to pay for accessibility, against any potential hindrance to the experience of players on other platforms, combined with potential change in the production of new resources, where it can also be argued improvement may yet be required in order for the iPhone servers to sustain themself long term.
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  #21  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:31 AM
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Facebook Graal = Logging in to Graal from a computer
Why not let us access it from the normal client
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2011, 02:00 AM
MattKan MattKan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astram View Post
Facebook Graal = Logging in to Graal from a computer
Why not let us access it from the normal client
This has been debated many times. 99% sure Stefan said it'd be unfair to give players the advantage of sparring and stuff from logging in from the normal client.

On the other hand, if you pay even more money, you still get to do it via facebook.
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
I should clarify that I'm not arguing in favour of what I feel is the best solution, but the impression I have obtained as to the purpose of PC Graal.


PC Graal becoming sparsely populated in favour of higher playerbases on different platforms could possibly result in development becoming more exclusive to the elite. In terms of meaningful development this won't make much difference at first, but in taking away the albeit false perception among newer players that they could have their own server being played by a lot of players, this could reduce the more real incentive of new players to learn development for themself.



Again I think this is where you have to weigh up how many players would be willing to pay for accessibility, against any potential hindrance to the experience of players on other platforms, combined with potential change in the production of new resources, where it can also be argued improvement may yet be required in order for the iPhone servers to sustain themself long term.
1. Understood.

2. Why would the perception be taken away? If anything, would it not grow? I mean, with the possibility of having their server played by thousands rather than 10s, it seems like the incentive would only grow. Perhaps the task of developing a multi-platform accommodating server is more difficult (not sure, I don't develop), but the genuine reward, in comparison to the past, seems to be much larger.

Overall, the potential playerbase of their developing server(s) will drastically increase while the requirements will remain the same, for the most part. For, as previously expressed, if the server is good enough, UC or no UC, players will be attracted to it. Also, if this is as successful with the players as I imagine, it'd only increase the likelihood of players trying UC servers because many will have the account-status for it.

In short, with a larger potential and unchanging requirements to attain said potential, why would anyone be discouraged?

3. This is a very valid argument, weighing the consequences should be a part of every rational decision, especially in business.

However, perhaps we've conducted the first step of the weighing process: speculation. Therefore, the best route would be to use an in-game poll to get a rough head-count of the players that'd endorse this change... I suspect many/most will.
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
1. Understood.

2. Why would the perception be taken away? If anything, would it not grow? I mean, with the possibility of having their server played by thousands rather than 10s, it seems like the incentive would only grow. Perhaps the task of developing a multi-platform accommodating server is more difficult (not sure, I don't develop), but the genuine reward, in comparison to the past, seems to be much larger.
The main problem I see is lack of examples, if you look at the current PlayerWorlds Tab, while they are now "official" servers of Graal, they were all at some point developed entirely by players having previously been an under construction world.
If you look at the 2 iPhone servers however, they were overseen by Graal's management to begin with, and while most of the development staff are still volunteers, several of the higher-up developers (plus the original developers behind iClassic) have expressed frustration towards a lack of creative freedom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
Overall, the potential playerbase of their developing server(s) will drastically increase while the requirements will remain the same
The requirements will not be the same, mobile devices have much lower CPU capacity (among other disadvantages), where a greater level of scripting knowledge is required to ensure servers are optimised/efficient and not too excessive.
UC Servers will also not be able to move onto a different platforms just for the sake of it, they will have to be capable of generating profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
Also, if this is as successful with the players as I imagine, it'd only increase the likelihood of players trying UC servers because many will have the account-status for it.
It remains to be seen what exactly will become of Gold + Lifetime Classic subscription, and what status will be required to play hidden servers.
If anything rented servers could become at an even bigger disadvantage to established servers which are free to play but include a gelat shop, as it's unlikely this will be allowed for free without restrictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
However, perhaps we've conducted the first step of the weighing process: speculation. Therefore, the best route would be to use an in-game poll to get a rough head-count of the players that'd endorse this change... I suspect many/most will.
It's already quite clear that this would be popular among dozens of PC players, but again I'd imagine it would be unpopular among a few hundred mobile users.
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  #25  
Old 11-10-2011, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
The main problem I see is lack of examples, if you look at the current PlayerWorlds Tab, while they are now "official" servers of Graal, they were all at some point developed entirely by players having previously been an under construction world.
If you look at the 2 iPhone servers however, they were overseen by Graal's management to begin with, and while most of the development staff are still volunteers, several of the higher-up developers (plus the original developers behind iClassic) have expressed frustration towards a lack of creative freedom.
Where did these iPhone servers stem from? Classic Playerworlds.
Where did Classic Playerworlds stem from? Hosted Servers.
Where did Hosted servers stem from? UC Servers.
You get where I'm going with this?
They are all interrelated, and at the root of it all, we find UC Servers.
Era or Classic were initially designed to accommodate the PC platform, but were altered in order to fit the requirements of the iPhone OS.

In reference, the Classic/Hosted Tabs can still exist and these gradual progressions would be left unharmed. UC servers apply for Hosted, eventually for Classic, then if the success continues and their concepts are lucrative, they may be transformed into iPhone Servers with the help of GraalOnline's Development staff, such as Stefan and Skyld. In short, the amount of work put in remains relatively the same, but the potential output increases.

As far as developers complaining about lack of creative freedom, they'll get over it as they should. In my opinion, developers are the builders, not framers. Simply because you can develop, it does not necessarily mean you know what needs to be developed. If you want creative freedom, get a UC server. By joining a team, you can no longer cling on to individual freedom when it comes down to what should or what needs to be done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
The requirements will not be the same, mobile devices have much lower CPU capacity (among other disadvantages), where a greater level of scripting knowledge is required to ensure servers are optimised/efficient and not too excessive.
UC Servers will also not be able to move onto a different platforms just for the sake of it, they will have to be capable of generating profit.
If they are popular and seemingly profitable Classic servers, I'm sure Stefan and others would be more than interested in ushering their conversion to fit the iPhone/Facebook platform requirements.

Furthermore, if they're not profitable... they still Classic; nothing's lost, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
It remains to be seen what exactly will become of Gold + Lifetime Classic subscription, and what status will be required to play hidden servers.
If anything rented servers could become at an even bigger disadvantage to established servers which are free to play but include a gelat shop, as it's unlikely this will be allowed for free without restrictions.
Rented Servers have always been at a disadvantage.
I thought the point of having a rented server was mainly for development. When you have organized, well-developed, and playable content, you apply for Hosted and move on from there, right?
Forgive if I'm wrong, but I don't see how this would be a byproduct of allowing multi-platform access to VIP Subscribers.





Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
It's already quite clear that this would be popular among dozens of PC players, but again I'd imagine it would be unpopular among a few hundred mobile users.
You've already allowed PC on to iPhone (through facebook).
By doing that, the door's already opened for iPhone through PC Graal Client.
To be quite frank, I thought PC-VIP players having access to iPhone would come first lol.
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:04 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
Where did these iPhone servers stem from? Classic Playerworlds.
Where did Classic Playerworlds stem from? Hosted Servers.
Where did Hosted servers stem from? UC Servers.
You get where I'm going with this?
They are all interrelated, and at the root of it all, we find UC Servers.
Era or Classic were initially designed to accommodate the PC platform, but were altered in order to fit the requirements of the iPhone OS.
When the PlayerWorlds were originally created, development was a lot simpler/easier (albeit more primitive) and was more accessible to players.
Development has since advanced at the expense of accessibility to players, and subsequently few new servers have broke through to and remained on the PlayerWorlds list, the most recent example is Zodiac which was over 5 years ago.

Neither of the 2 current iPhone servers were constructed without Stefan's oversight and/or active involvement, so there are yet no examples which can prove this can be achieved pre-dominantly by player developers.
Out of these 2 servers, one happens to share the name with what was again a server who's original creation was overseen by Graal's management.

In short, there isn't much credence to the idea that players can successfully design their own world as it is, yet quite a lot of players still believe it to be closely enough in reach to spend $100+ pursuing it.
Now imagine a PlayerWorlds tab consisting of a significantly reduced population due to attraction to cross-platform servers, would that PlayerWorlds tab still be as much of an appealing prospect to aspiring server developers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
In reference, the Classic/Hosted Tabs can still exist and these gradual progressions would be left unharmed. UC servers apply for Hosted, eventually for Classic, then if the success continues and their concepts are lucrative, they may be transformed into iPhone Servers with the help of GraalOnline's Development staff, such as Stefan and Skyld. In short, the amount of work put in remains relatively the same, but the potential output increases.
If a new server were to somehow become populated and lucrative purely as a PC server, chances are that by this point it would require a vast amount of re-working in order to be viable on a mobile device. In comparison the 2 current iPhone servers aswell as iKingdoms were all constructed with the intention of being an iPhone server to begin with.
Therefore I believe it would be very problematic transition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
As far as developers complaining about lack of creative freedom, they'll get over it as they should. In my opinion, developers are the builders, not framers. Simply because you can develop, it does not necessarily mean you know what needs to be developed. If you want creative freedom, get a UC server. By joining a team, you can no longer cling on to individual freedom when it comes down to what should or what needs to be done.
I can agree that a team of developers need to be working towards a common goal as opposed to it being a group of individuals working towards their own ideals. But there comes a time where a product may need a bit of innovation, if you starve it too much it becomes stagnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_Fish View Post
You've already allowed PC on to iPhone (through facebook).
This doesn't really go that far against the arguments made towards PC > iPhone, as some of the disadvantages still apply. Stefan has also claimed that Facebook Graal is even slower than it is on an iPhone, which if true reduces any potential unfairness in terms of competitions.
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  #27  
Old 11-12-2011, 05:59 AM
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further exposes them to hacking and the ****heads that are banned in the PC communities.

yup
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  #28  
Old 11-20-2011, 01:10 PM
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Facebook/PC Access to iPhone servers has killed their community or at least hyper-aged it and further exposes them to hacking and the ****heads that are banned in the PC communities.
Yeah, because Graal has so many dangerous hackers that plague this game still today. You probably didn't play when hackers were actually an issue, people like Jelly and Viper. We're in the year 2011, if you want to credit the 10 or so PC players that play Facebook Graal via PC as the reason to why their community has been "killed" then you're lost.
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  #29  
Old 02-24-2012, 06:31 AM
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I think you should allow the PC to access the Iphone servers...Delteria is currently in the works to be an iphone server so we have been testing both aspects of Iphone and PC and its just a smaller screen. If you build the server properly you can phase out these "dis-advantages" tapping a sword button on a screen is the same as mashing the A,S or D button on a computer is it not?

-If you form the systems where the computer players can't switch weapons or do things faster than iphone players then youre not really cheating anyone.

If anything...if you allowed the idevice and pc community to integrate you'd only bring more players to the PC...and probably find more developers for the game. What would be better if someone was playing on their Idevice on a bus then got home was able to log off and then log on to the SAME account on their computer...just for larger play...
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  #30  
Old 02-24-2012, 06:42 AM
Fulg0reSama Fulg0reSama is offline
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I think you should allow the PC to access the Iphone servers...Delteria is currently in the works to be an iphone server so we have been testing both aspects of Iphone and PC and its just a smaller screen. If you build the server properly you can phase out these "dis-advantages" tapping a sword button on a screen is the same as mashing the A,S or D button on a computer is it not?

-If you form the systems where the computer players can't switch weapons or do things faster than iphone players then youre not really cheating anyone.

If anything...if you allowed the idevice and pc community to integrate you'd only bring more players to the PC...and probably find more developers for the game. What would be better if someone was playing on their Idevice on a bus then got home was able to log off and then log on to the SAME account on their computer...just for larger play...
I remember arguing these same points when iPhone Graal was just beginning, Curious to see a response now that it seems properly worded.
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