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  #106  
Old 09-16-2009, 08:20 AM
Tigairius Tigairius is offline
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Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction View Post
You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.
I agree with this first paragraph. You have my interest.

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Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction View Post
I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.


If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.
And... here's where you lost it. It's not $70 to have your creative freedom, it is $70 to have your creative freedom + pay for server space which includes electric bill and internet and maintaining the machines. It's actually fairly cheap for the amount of stuff you get and the power GS2 does have (although more definitely needs to be added for it to be considered a serious development platform).

Yes, of course you will still have to follow GraalOnline rules, otherwise servers would just be running rampant uploading pornography, copyrighted content, and extremely obscene things. Since the game is hosted on GraalOnline servers you have to follow GraalOnline rules. Any server host requires that you follow their terms of condition, including web hosts, dedicated server hosts, etc. Why wouldn't you have to follow the rules? Remember, these are their machines, they are legally liable for them and their content.

Rigorous inspections? Try simple inspections for basic quality, content and control. It does not take a ton to get accepted to classic, all you need is a halfway decent server, and even less than that to get Hosted status. One of the incredible things about Graal is not the fact that you can develop your own game, but it is that you can develop your own game and have it approved to be advertised to all sorts of players who play Graal. Since Graal IS a development platform as well as a game, this is an incredible opportunity. I don't know many games that allow you to develop your own content, even as a complete amateur and have it uploaded onto the official game which is run by players -- just like you! You propose removing the PWA though, which would just be shooting yourself in the foot. PWA is not only here to protect GraalOnline, but to protect you as a developer as well. If your content is being used against your will and there is no one to enforce it, then you're just out of luck, how frustrating. PWA is also monitoring for copyrighted material and enforcing basic amounts of quality control on the classic servers. A game like Graal would not survive without the PWA, they are currently key to Graal and if the PWA team vanished tomorrow I am willing to place money on the notion that Graal would plummet quite a bit from where it is right now (no one running support center, handling corrupt activities in server management, making administrative decisions to [hopefully] benefit Graal).

There is a lot more freedom as a developer if you code the game yourself (using other languages such as C++, Python, etc). All indie developers know this, and most take advantage of it. No one forces the development to be on Graal, everyone is free to go off and start their own projects. The little secret that people sometimes forget about themselves is that they lack the ability and knowledge, but Graal makes it easier for them, and that is why they are here developing. To me, that says many things, but I will let you use your imagination .

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Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction View Post
But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )
Some of what is said here is pretty good too.
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  #107  
Old 09-16-2009, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tigairius View Post
And... here's where you lost it. It's not $70 to have your creative freedom, it is $70 to have your creative freedom + pay for server space which includes electric bill and internet and maintaining the machines. It's actually fairly cheap for the amount of stuff you get and the power GS2 does have (although more definitely needs to be added for it to be considered a serious development platform).

Yes, of course you will still have to follow GraalOnline rules, otherwise servers would just be running rampant uploading pornography, copyrighted content, and extremely obscene things. Since the game is hosted on GraalOnline servers you have to follow GraalOnline rules. Any server host requires that you follow their terms of condition, including web hosts, dedicated server hosts, etc. Why wouldn't you have to follow the rules? Remember, these are their machines, they are legally liable for them and their content.

Rigorous inspections? Try simple inspections for basic quality, content and control. It does not take a ton to get accepted to classic, all you need is a halfway decent server, and even less than that to get Hosted status. One of the incredible things about Graal is not the fact that you can develop your own game, but it is that you can develop your own game and have it approved to be advertised to all sorts of players who play Graal. Since Graal IS a development platform as well as a game, this is an incredible opportunity. I don't know many games that allow you to develop your own content, even as a complete amateur and have it uploaded onto the official game which is run by players -- just like you! You propose removing the PWA though, which would just be shooting yourself in the foot. PWA is not only here to protect GraalOnline, but to protect you as a developer as well. If your content is being used against your will and there is no one to enforce it, then you're just out of luck, how frustrating. PWA is also monitoring for copyrighted material and enforcing basic amounts of quality control on the classic servers. A game like Graal would not survive without the PWA, they are currently key to Graal and if the PWA team vanished tomorrow I am willing to place money on the notion that Graal would plummet quite a bit from where it is right now (no one running support center, handling corrupt activities in server management, making administrative decisions to [hopefully] benefit Graal).
i'm not sure what you mean by saying graal is a development platform as well as a game, since the gaming aspect hasn't been emphasized in years

i also like the fact that the PWA are there, but to the extent to which you give them importance, it seems that the responsibility for running graal has been put completely into their hands, which i don't agree with. shouldn't the PWA be assisting stefan and unix as they run graal, not running graal in the absence of stefan and unixmad?

and lastly is the server costs - while i have no argument for the server hosting itself, i don't see how you can pay simply to have GS2. shouldn't you have included support for graal online staff in the assistance of helping amateur developers? shouldn't all servers have, at least, a once a week global on the server, checking on development and helping where needed? graal becomes better and stronger the more content is released - whether it be by graal staff or amateur developers is of no concern as long as it gets out. this might be hard for the PWA and GDT to handle, but it should be included in the job considering the global and social powers involved. if i create a support ticket asking for assistance in LATing for my server, would it ever reach the eyes of any global staff more than just the one person checking tickets that day? and even if they see it, will they even help out, or send help?

it's like paying for a car but given no gas and no instruction manual
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  #108  
Old 09-16-2009, 05:10 PM
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When you purchase a server, it's assumed that you have a plan for it as well as the resources and help to get it done, but they obviously don't require it or care if you do because this where they earn a lot their money. If the server is successful all the better.

You can't blame Graal and their support for people who purchase servers without Project Plans.

It shouldn't be the job of Globals to babysit people and assist them just because they make a support ticket asking for help. They should be doing the work presenting their plans to the public and attempting to get help from developers.
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  #109  
Old 09-16-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
and lastly is the server costs - while i have no argument for the server hosting itself, i don't see how you can pay simply to have GS2. shouldn't you have included support for graal online staff in the assistance of helping amateur developers? shouldn't all servers have, at least, a once a week global on the server, checking on development and helping where needed? graal becomes better and stronger the more content is released - whether it be by graal staff or amateur developers is of no concern as long as it gets out. this might be hard for the PWA and GDT to handle, but it should be included in the job considering the global and social powers involved. if i create a support ticket asking for assistance in LATing for my server, would it ever reach the eyes of any global staff more than just the one person checking tickets that day? and even if they see it, will they even help out, or send help?

it's like paying for a car but given no gas and no instruction manual
The PWA does not exist to help you develop your own content. If you rent a webhost for a year, you don't see the people hosting your content helping you, do you? I sure as hell haven't for any of the 6 years I've been renting webspace. You pay for a service that can host your own content, simple as that.
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  #110  
Old 09-16-2009, 06:39 PM
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so you both are saying that they shouldn't support servers simply because they don't have too? strong argument right there
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  #111  
Old 09-16-2009, 07:07 PM
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so you both are saying that they shouldn't support servers simply because they don't have too? strong argument right there
You're basically saying that someone that works at the registry of a gas station should help you change your tires.
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  #112  
Old 09-16-2009, 07:19 PM
Tigairius Tigairius is offline
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
would it ever reach the eyes of any global staff more than just the one person checking tickets that day? and even if they see it, will they even help out, or send help?
The rest of your post has been well handled by the two fellows above me, so I will only address this part.

Yes, we would find someone to help you, but chances are we wouldn't do it ourselves. You may get lucky and find one of us popping on to help depending on the situation (example: in case of economic emergency where a scripter messed up and items are being duplicated in mass amounts), but for the most part it's your responsibility to develop your content, not ours. We are a safety net at best.

If it's absolutely necessary we will get you into contact with some developer in the community that could help you [which we're sort of trying to push into more mainstream with the GDT], but usually the people we get into contact with are just people you could have contacted yourself. There is really no excuse to write a ticket asking for LAT help other than laziness and an unwillingness to learn.

Additionally, several of us check the support center every day, and it's not just "one person checking the support." I can list at least 5 people who check the support center daily.
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  #113  
Old 09-16-2009, 07:56 PM
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Preview servers and staff-only development servers should be Classic enabled.

I can't think of a single quality developer who only has a trial account so I wouldn't say they need to be completely free for everyone just yet.
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  #114  
Old 09-16-2009, 08:33 PM
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Preview servers and staff-only development servers should be Classic enabled.
Would definitely be a step in the right direction.
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  #115  
Old 09-16-2009, 09:08 PM
DesolateRestriction DesolateRestriction is offline
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Tigairius, I understand and agree with what you said. Remember, I do not suggest abolishing PWA. But if you're setting graal up as just a developer's platform and selling only the tools and language (and not hosting the servers)
what would be the point? If Graal continues to offer hosting services then sure, there should be some sort of team to protect legal liability.


And to the point of views posted after Tigairius:

Why are we running in circles with this argument? Of course it is not global staffs' RESPONSIBILITY to help. They should be more concerned, as the growth of playerworld quality is an investment and asset to the community as a whole, but again they aren't required to do so.

I suppose we'll see what happens with the GDT. I think once the wheels start spinning, it'll be a huge step in the right direction.
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  #116  
Old 09-17-2009, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by xXziroXx View Post
You're basically saying that someone that works at the registry of a gas station should help you change your tires.
you butchered the example. it's like someone selling you a car and giving you a key, and that's it - no gas in the car, no tires on it, no engine - it only looks like a car. responsibility isn't a facter here, it's whether or not the PWA or other global group should help servers out, since that's the entire point of graal as presented by you developers - to create content. sure they don't HAVE to help, and it's not their RESPONSIBILITY to help, but all that amounts to is that they don't want to help out because they don't. i find the other jobs being done by the PWA to be trivial, because honestly anyone could do it if they put the time into it. helping out new developers (or even experienced ones who seem to get more support than any other) isn't something that just anyone or any group can do, and it's an area of graal that lacks considerably. frankly, it's sicken to see this "leave it alone" attitude taken on by you developers

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Originally Posted by Tigairius View Post
Yes, we would find someone to help you, but chances are we wouldn't do it ourselves. You may get lucky and find one of us popping on to help depending on the situation (example: in case of economic emergency where a scripter messed up and items are being duplicated in mass amounts), but for the most part it's your responsibility to develop your content, not ours. We are a safety net at best..
and chances are that no one would help, even if we contacted them. at least if a global, who has some social significance to graal, asks someone to help out, they might think about it. and again, you only choose to be a safety net, at best. you could be doing a lot more to push some new content into graal, but instead you let it sit and marinate until the **** can't smell any worse
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  #117  
Old 09-17-2009, 02:20 AM
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you butchered the example. it's like someone selling you a car and giving you a key, and that's it - no gas in the car, no tires on it, no engine - it only looks like a car.
Have to disagree with you here...Graal isn't saying they will give us something and then not providing it...they're just not saying or doing anything.

What really bugs me, and what intially sparked the creation of this thread, is that if we tried to define what Graal is, we would get different answers. The website advertises it as some stupid kiddy game (and "oh yea, create your own world too!"), and then Stefan tells the community it is a development platform.

Well, what the **** is Graal? If you want to advertise it as a game, then support your game, develop new servers, and provide frequent updates. If you want to call it a development platform, then update the tools, document everything properly, provide tutorials, and change the stupid site.

Until CJ takes a clear path and the distinction is made, I will consider Graal a game. If they're going to continue leave it to the players to maintain their game, then they should at least do so without requiring us to hand them money all the time.


edit: you should probably change to stupid site no matter what you consider Graal
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  #118  
Old 09-17-2009, 02:34 AM
Tigairius Tigairius is offline
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
you butchered the example. it's like someone selling you a car and giving you a key, and that's it - no gas in the car, no tires on it, no engine - it only looks like a car. responsibility isn't a facter here, it's whether or not the PWA or other global group should help servers out, since that's the entire point of graal as presented by you developers - to create content. sure they don't HAVE to help, and it's not their RESPONSIBILITY to help, but all that amounts to is that they don't want to help out because they don't. i find the other jobs being done by the PWA to be trivial, because honestly anyone could do it if they put the time into it. helping out new developers (or even experienced ones who seem to get more support than any other) isn't something that just anyone or any group can do, and it's an area of graal that lacks considerably. frankly, it's sicken to see this "leave it alone" attitude taken on by you developers
You are asking support staff to provide developers with development-related help. Brilliant.
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
and chances are that no one would help, even if we contacted them. at least if a global, who has some social significance to graal, asks someone to help out, they might think about it. and again, you only choose to be a safety net, at best. you could be doing a lot more to push some new content into graal, but instead you let it sit and marinate until the **** can't smell any worse
We have no control over the content being pushed into Graal, unless you're talking about Hosted and Classic servers being approved, but that's not the PWAs fault if they are not being produced, that's yours.

You've perpetually shown that you do not understand the role of the PWA, so let me inform you.

I feel like I shouldn't have to take the time to write this to someone, but I will take special time since you don't seem to understand.

The PWA does:
  • Check servers for illegal, copyrighted, inappropriate content.
  • Inspect servers when the server developers feel that they are ready to go Hosted/Classic.
  • Investigate and settle disputes about abusive and corrupt behavior.
  • Read and reply to all support tickets submitted to the playerworlds section (handling anywhere from harassment to playerworld issues).
  • Act as a safety net for when servers have been taken over or economies are being ruined by staff.
  • Help manage and monitor the community of Graal, and help build a bridge between players and upper management (Stefan, unixmad, etc). We can be your voice.

The PWA does not, nor should they have to:
  • Develop content for your server.
  • Fix your scripting mistakes -- get a NAT.
  • Teach you how to level.
  • Help you learn how to do anything development related.
  • Get involved with your projects.

We are starting a separate team, it's called the Global Development Team, which may help you out since you seem to advocate having people doing all your work for you instead of learning how to do it yourself. However, if someone truly feels the need to remain ignorant and continue to pay for a server, that's perfectly fine, but they will not receive any help from the team. You must put forth effort to learn how to develop things on your own as well. If you don't learn how to develop, that is not my problem and it's not the PWAs problem. In fact, it's no ones problem except your own.

You seem to be trying to blame things on the PWA when it truly has absolutely nothing to do with what you're complaining about, which is just a lack of available developers to help you with your project. Again, this is not the PWAs fault, in fact, you are more at fault for it than the PWA.

It is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.
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  #119  
Old 09-17-2009, 02:48 AM
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Professionalism is not:
  • Acting condescending to a customer.
  • Sarcasm.
  • Responding to threads in an aggressive (or passive aggresive) tone.
  • Displaying your teen angst.
  • Lacking in courtesy or respect.
Just thought I'd point that out, because it is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.
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Seriously, you have ****-all for content and you're not exactly pulling in new developer talent, angling for prestigious titles should be your last concern.
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  #120  
Old 09-17-2009, 03:49 AM
Tigairius Tigairius is offline
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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Professionalism is not:
  • Acting condescending to a customer.
  • Sarcasm.
  • Responding to threads in an aggressive (or passive aggresive) tone.
  • Displaying your teen angst.
  • Lacking in courtesy or respect.
Just thought I'd point that out, because it is so incredibly common in this day and age for everyone to try to push their problems onto someone else and find someone to blame, but really there is no one to blame but themselves.
Neat. Let me get my pen and paper out so I can take notes from your infinite wisdom; please, go on.
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