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  #31  
Old 07-04-2009, 09:05 AM
jacob_bald6225 jacob_bald6225 is offline
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All good for classic except the economy
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  #32  
Old 07-04-2009, 05:27 PM
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  #33  
Old 07-04-2009, 09:04 PM
Kamaeru Kamaeru is offline
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Touching plan. These "Core" notions don't seem to exist too deep inside the apparent problem.

You are scratching the surface of the apple and calling it the "core" just because it came off of a tree that grows apple cores.

If you want to talk about "core" properties of game design, even with actual game developers, differences of opinion will always occur. There are many, many separate approaches to creating "core" elements as a structure for game design.

None of which were listed in your thesis here. I don't like it, Thor. I think a more coherent forum of discussion should be established, and that if someone involved doesn't understand the methodology for creating "core" elements of a game then appropriately that person should either step aside, be placed on a better project for their particular skill set, or be taught in some manner how better to realize these goals.

Make sense? It's considered principles of management.
Anyway this post was more of a direct response to the first post by Thor.
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  #34  
Old 07-04-2009, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamaeru View Post
Touching plan. These "Core" notions don't seem to exist too deep inside the apparent problem.

You are scratching the surface of the apple and calling it the "core" just because it came off of a tree that grows apple cores.

If you want to talk about "core" properties of game design, even with actual game developers, differences of opinion will always occur. There are many, many separate approaches to creating "core" elements as a structure for game design.

None of which were listed in your thesis here. I don't like it, Thor. I think a more coherent forum of discussion should be established, and that if someone involved doesn't understand the methodology for creating "core" elements of a game then appropriately that person should either step aside, be placed on a better project for their particular skill set, or be taught in some manner how better to realize these goals.

Make sense? It's considered principles of management.
Anyway this post was more of a direct response to the first post by Thor.
Everything mentioned in my initial post is only the result of what has been discussed and agreed by the Dev Team over the last few days,
it doesn't mean that my own, the Development teams, or Master Storms thoughts are limited to these ideas.

But i'd very much like a Project Leader, and a team specifically designated for coming up with a Storyline, mapping it out, and pretty much establishing a design for the server.
I feel it is important that Quest content all fits together in a consistant manner with themes being re-used, and that any area in game is designed purposely to accommodate it.
I've always liked your own ideas,
and I understand that you've put extensive studying towards game design,
I think you'd fit the bill for handling this important area of Development.
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  #35  
Old 07-05-2009, 06:29 AM
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I'm afraid you are probably commiting server-suicide.

My opinion is still that the ideal solution is to get rid of the NPC server and upload the old levels, but still, if you intent do scrap the server your method seems quite hazardous.

You have to realize that in order to make the server worthy of its name, and maintain its basic player-base (current active players and old players that return occassionaly) you have to remain loyal to the original concept. Otherwise, I highly recommend you to quit your position as manager and create your own server.
The concept is also quite important in order to create differentiation from the other servers.


In order to maintain the original concept you should follow a few key points:
1) Leave the server open, encourage players to submit personal content and use their contributions in the building in the new overworld (houses in towns, guildhouses, possibly even minor quests).
I believe the personal touch had provided a lot of the original server's charm.
Of course, you will not be able to get a decent amount of player contributions while the server is under-construction.

2) Leave the gameplay simple - there is no need to have a complicated economy on Classic. Allow gelats to be obtained by cutting bush. There is no need to have a G2K1 economy with a tendency to mess up, especially considering the relatively low potential amount of players.

3) Give the players something to explore - as you said, exploration is a major aspect of the game. I understand why you wish to make the overworld smaller, but I wouldn't go too far.

4) Maintain the old and simple level style - by old style I don't mean tile-errors. Avoid random-pathways and other styles that are often used in modern servers that do not reflect Classic's spirit.

5) This idea is a bit more controversial - get rid of the FAQ team until you find it absolutly necessary. Having an interactive online walkthrough of the server discourages player-to-player interaction.
It'd be better if players who get stuck in the game would seek their fellow players for help, instead of asking an official figure.
If you wish to explain basic concepts, have an in-game or a linked out-of-game FAQ.

Last edited by Minoc; 07-05-2009 at 06:44 AM..
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  #36  
Old 07-05-2009, 08:45 AM
mistral_007 mistral_007 is offline
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That plan is not loyal to classic at all. I'm incredibly disappointed.
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Yea, but if this is all that you guys have after 4 years, it's pathetic. It's pretty bad that the management never had any idea of where the server was headed until now.
Wow you argue like 5 year olds without any relevant content of what you mean. Sad, really.
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  #37  
Old 07-05-2009, 09:45 AM
Terazel Tenjin Terazel Tenjin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
1) Leave the server open, encourage players to submit personal content and use their contributions in the building in the new overworld (houses in towns, guildhouses, possibly even minor quests).
I believe the personal touch had provided a lot of the original server's charm.
Of course, you will not be able to get a decent amount of player contributions while the server is under-construction.
While I agree that this is "true" to the server's origin and should play an important role in the foundation, I feel that a standard of quality needs to be met for this (I believe someone else has mentioned the quality of work/levels before in reference to staff/LAT). And on that note, this isn't really the time to implement that. I believe that they are right in wanting to focus on the bare essentials, start off small and work the server back into its growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
2) Leave the gameplay simple - there is no need to have a complicated economy on Classic. Allow gelats to be obtained by cutting bush. There is no need to have a G2K1 economy with a tendency to mess up, especially considering the relatively low potential amount of players.
A functional economy is essentially complicated. An uncontrolled economy is easy, which is what we've always had with Classic. What's the point of even having any kind of economy if money is worthless?

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Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
3) Give the players something to explore - as you said, exploration is a major aspect of the game. I understand why you wish to make the overworld smaller, but I wouldn't go too far.
Didn't he say they wanted to keep it small to start off with? I think it makes perfect sense, unless I missed the bullet about them wanting to keep it small for good without any plans of expansion.

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Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
4) Maintain the old and simple level style - by old style I don't mean tile-errors. Avoid random-pathways and other styles that are often used in modern servers that do not reflect Classic's spirit.
Are you suggesting that only the default tiling should be used just for the sake of maintaining a Classic "feel"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
5) This idea is a bit more controversial - get rid of the FAQ team until you find it absolutly necessary. Having an interactive online walkthrough of the server discourages player-to-player interaction.
It'd be better if players who get stuck in the game would seek their fellow players for help, instead of asking an official figure.
If you wish to explain basic concepts, have an in-game or a linked out-of-game FAQ.
This is the only point I agree with. Majority of the interactions "back in the day" made the playing on the server fun. If a group of players got really stumped and couldn't wing a quest on-the-fly, they could have always consulted with shockedfrog's guide. Seeing the decreased demand for GP as security improved with the game, GPs should have a dual function of rules enforcement as well as answer basic questions and provide requested assistance. FAQ should be a volunteer responsibility, with one of the reasons for it being the hope that it can increase player interaction. Only problem would be hostilities from veteran players against newbies, but the beauty of player interactions (if there are enough players) is that there'll always be people that will be willing to fight against the PKers and guide the newbies, and those players won't have to be staff to do it.

Honestly, Minoc, I think you need to realize that regressing won't do any more or less good than revamping. I'm not saying certain things that we enjoyed from back in the day shouldn't be brought back at all, but relying on it like it's the Holy Grail is the wrong answer. The resources, in the aspect of personnel and players, are drastically different than it was before.
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  #38  
Old 07-05-2009, 12:37 PM
Minoc Minoc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin View Post
While I agree that this is "true" to the server's origin and should play an important role in the foundation, I feel that a standard of quality needs to be met for this (I believe someone else has mentioned the quality of work/levels before in reference to staff/LAT). And on that note, this isn't really the time to implement that. I believe that they are right in wanting to focus on the bare essentials, start off small and work the server back into its growth.
There should of course be some kind of quality control to submitted content.
I agree that they should focus on the bare essentials first, but they should do it while the server is still online and accessible.
Otherwise, if the server is subject to the regular playerworld rules, it'd have to be completed before submitted to review, and therefore include little to none player content.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin View Post
A functional economy is essentially complicated. An uncontrolled economy is easy, which is what we've always had with Classic. What's the point of even having any kind of economy if money is worthless?
I believe there was a little value for money in the past, but not in terms of economy that involves trading between players. Since the money was mostly used for quests, players had to spend some time cutting bush or request other players to aid them. You could look at the money-collecting process as a part of a quest.

The question is whether an implementation of a more complicated economy is really needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terazel Tenjin View Post
Are you suggesting that only the default tiling should be used just for the sake of maintaining a Classic "feel"?
I'm not sure what you mean by only default tiling. I believe levels such as this should be avoided (no offence to the creator).
I believe the simple style should be maintained as it creates some differentiation, stays loyal to the original concept, and of course, I also personally prefer this style.
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  #39  
Old 07-05-2009, 02:25 PM
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I dont know... by looking at the old maps it doesn't seem that impressing anymore xD I'm sure they could do lots better now but they should still use levels like lvl 14 and stuffs like that just to make people nostalgic xD

Just had to throw in the old start screen :P
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  #40  
Old 07-05-2009, 06:44 PM
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  #41  
Old 07-05-2009, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdor View Post
I dont know... by looking at the old maps it doesn't seem that impressing anymore xD I'm sure they could do lots better now but they should still use levels like lvl 14 and stuffs like that just to make people nostalgic xD

Just had to throw in the old start screen :P
I hope you realize how much content there was in that "tiny" map.
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  #42  
Old 07-05-2009, 07:21 PM
MysticX2X MysticX2X is offline
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Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
There should of course be some kind of quality control to submitted content.
I agree that they should focus on the bare essentials first, but they should do it while the server is still online and accessible.
Otherwise, if the server is subject to the regular playerworld rules, it'd have to be completed before submitted to review, and therefore include little to none player content.
It wouldn't really be the server's fault for no player submitted control. All servers really have to be in GS2 and people have been begging for a editor compatible with gs2 for years. If you mean houses and such people can/still submit those. (not sure about on this new ow). However, if you mean miniquests and things like that, eh you make a point but again, that wouldn't be the server's fault.
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  #43  
Old 07-05-2009, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Minoc View Post
My opinion is still that the ideal solution is to get rid of the NPC server and upload the old levels
As much as I agree, this is not possible anymore.
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  #44  
Old 07-05-2009, 08:48 PM
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hehe sure

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I hope you realize how much content there was in that "tiny" map.
These are from an old mossy backup cd of my, I have played that content.
And Im still sure you could come up with something better, not saying that all old content suck and shouldn't be kept or at least be improved but... just take a look at big city, wtf is that? GONE I SAY
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  #45  
Old 07-05-2009, 09:29 PM
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hehe sure


These are from an old mossy backup cd of my, I have played that content.
And Im still sure you could come up with something better, not saying that all old content suck and shouldn't be kept or at least be improved but... just take a look at big city, wtf is that? GONE I SAY
Hurray for proof.
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