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  #31  
Old 07-20-2012, 04:53 PM
Hezzy002 Hezzy002 is offline
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
I've already debugged the 2 strenuously, for one example in the form of an offline and online NPC showing a 32 x 32 pixel polygon to represent boxes, and concluded that the basic hit mechanisms are like-for-like. I've even shown this to complainers and they've either become convinced, or rejected it with some belief that player damage checks are scripted differently to showcharacter() ones.
So do what I said, and then nobody will complain any more. Enable default movement and your movement at the same time, but instead of overwriting the player's XY coords just use a showgani and see if they ever stop overlapping one another. Have a full spar with this on to test out edge cases and the way lag behaves.
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  #32  
Old 07-20-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
Next time there's a Classic spar tourney I will use Fraps and point out hits that shouldn't count. I'll upload the vid on YouTube.
The concept behind it being a clientside hit detection means that when it comes to attacking other players, it is essentially irrelevant what you see on your own screen, and what does matter is where your opponent would see you slashing on their screen, where it takes varying time for your data to reach them.

Making such a video and pointing out instances where you've hit a player from long distance according to your own perspective would mean absolutely nothing.

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It's not something subtle either, it's incredibly obvious and other sparrers agree with me.
If other sparrers agree with you that you shouldn't be able to hit players from long distance according to your own perspective, then there is a massive misconception at hand. It is an entirely plausible occurrence which can and does happen with default systems, as shown within the video I posted before.

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Originally Posted by Hezzy002 View Post
So do what I said, and then nobody will complain any more. Enable default movement and your movement at the same time, but instead of overwriting the player's XY coords just use a showgani and see if they ever stop overlapping one another. Have a full spar with this on to test out edge cases and the way lag behaves.
I did something similar to this back in 2009 when I was making the scripted system. Now we have a special server option in place which completely disables default aspects which cannot be done through script.

But I'm very confident there is nothing wrong with the sword detection mechanism itself, I made this video to demonstrate:



The only thing I'm not certain about is what order default sword checks are occurring in relation to movement, such as before, after or both. I need Stefan to confirm this.
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  #33  
Old 07-20-2012, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
Making such a video and pointing out instances where you've hit a player from long distance according to your own perspective would mean absolutely nothing.
How would it mean nothing when it would show something that only occurs on your server and not the others? lmao seriously I give up, your system only benefits my sparring style anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike
If other sparrers agree with you that you shouldn't be able to hit players from long distance according to your own perspective, then there is a massive misconception at hand. It is an entirely plausible occurrence which can and does happen with default systems, as shown within the video I posted before.
You posted a video with Blobz, an infamous lagger. He had well over 2-3 seconds of latency. Poor example.
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  #34  
Old 07-20-2012, 07:13 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Now you're contradicting yourself.
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  #35  
Old 07-20-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
Now you're contradicting yourself.
By continuing to post, yeah. Other than that I don't see where I contradict myself.
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  #36  
Old 07-20-2012, 07:24 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
I don't see where I contradict myself.
\/

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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
How would it mean nothing when it would show something that only occurs on your server and not the others?
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
You posted a video with Blobz, an infamous lagger. He had well over 2-3 seconds of latency. Poor example.
Also the video was simply the first video which showed up in the search results.
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  #37  
Old 07-20-2012, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
Also the video was simply the first video which showed up in the search results.
An incredibly laggy player will have messed up HD, but that wasn't the case while I was sparring on Classic now was it? Of all players you had to post Blobz aswell, I think at one point his UN ping reported over 5000ms? I'm comparing the HD from my perspective between UN, iClassic, and Classic where only Classic has funky hits land while the other two don't for me.
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  #38  
Old 07-20-2012, 07:41 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
An incredibly laggy player will have messed up HD, but that wasn't the case while I was sparring on Classic now was it? Of all players you had to post Blobz aswell, I think at one point his UN ping reported over 5000ms? I'm comparing the HD from my perspective between UN, iClassic, and Classic where only Classic has funky hits land while the other two don't for me.
You stated that these delayed hits do not happen on other servers in response to Maximus's post concerning laggers, therefore you shouldn't be surprised when I show an example of it happening as a result of a lagger.

As for the validity of your claim that it's a common occurrence on Classic, me being a European hosting the spar tournaments I'd have been seeing your opponents get hurt at a similar interval. I didn't see them being hit from miles away from you, with the exception of one person who actually did have a high ping and was running at you like a headless chicken, so no surprise there.
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  #39  
Old 07-20-2012, 08:34 PM
Crono Crono is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
You stated that these delayed hits do not happen on other servers in response to Maximus's post concerning laggers, therefore you shouldn't be surprised when I show an example of it happening as a result of a lagger.

As for the validity of your claim that it's a common occurrence on Classic, me being a European hosting the spar tournaments I'd have been seeing your opponents get hurt at a similar interval. I didn't see them being hit from miles away from you, with the exception of one person who actually did have a high ping and was running at you like a headless chicken, so no surprise there.
Extreme laggers have always been exceptions and unpredictable in terms of hit detection: be it the bare default system, Classic's old serverside HD, or Classic's current system. My claim that these hits don't happen was geared towards the normal player. I was landing hits I don't think I should have been landing (hits which wouldn't have landed on the other servers) all throughout the tournies vs various players and my ping was consistent (100/10 connection without any hickups). I still spar on iClassic and UN so it's not like I'm out of touch with hit detection or anything.

The only time there were no issues was when the two of us sparred UDP.

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  #40  
Old 07-20-2012, 08:42 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
My claim that these hits don't happen was geared towards the normal player. I was landing hits I don't think I should have been landing (hits which wouldn't have landed on the other servers) all throughout the tournies vs various players and my ping was consistent (100/10 connection without any hickups). I still spar on iClassic and UN so it's not like I'm out of touch with hit detection or anything.
"
Keep in mind that the reason the spar tournaments were being hosted in the first place was because all the main servers had crashed. Classic may have not suffered a crash, but there were definitely some lag problems in patches whenever this happened.

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  #41  
Old 07-20-2012, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
Keep in mind that the reason the spar tournaments were being hosted in the first place was because all the main servers had crashed. Classic may have not suffered a crash, but there were definitely some lag problems in patches whenever this happened.
I can just fraps myself sparring, perhaps there are only certain situations when it happens. We know that UDP is smooth and works fine between two Euros (and should be just as fine with Americans), I'll just spar around with TCP and see how it goes.
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  #42  
Old 07-20-2012, 09:44 PM
Imperialistic Imperialistic is offline
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Thor, it's almost sounding as if you're being reluctant and totally ignoring our concerns. From your perspective (serverside) the spar system might be flawless, but we are just trying to point out that there is a difference sparring between your server and others. UN might have a shitty system in place, but regardless everyone enjoys sparring on that server because of the way it is.

I'm not saying that your system is faulty and there is errors with it, I'm just trying to state that it's different from any other server and most players don't care for it. And again, no one knows WHY it's different, it just is.. I would love to log on Classic and be able to spar normally without having to figure out a entirely new technique because of the hit detection.
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  #43  
Old 07-20-2012, 10:19 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Originally Posted by Imperialistic View Post
Thor, it's almost sounding as if you're being reluctant and totally ignoring our concerns.
What, by replying with highly detailed explanations and even going through the effort of making a video to prove a point?

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From your perspective (serverside)
If you believe I'm implying that this has anything to do with serverside, you are either terribly mistaken or have not been reading my posts properly.
I've been talking about a clientside sword detection mechanism the entire time, whereas the serverside system was the one in place pre-wipe, and was quite rightly scrapped.

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I'm not saying that your system is faulty and there is errors with it, I'm just trying to state that it's different from any other server and most players don't care for it. And again, no one knows WHY it's different, it just is.. I would love to log on Classic and be able to spar normally without having to figure out a entirely new technique because of the hit detection.
Once again, the only alleged symptom thus far is an entirely normal behaviour with the default hit detection, and can easily be explained by the recent server lag problems. There is nothing script wise which can account for a higher delay between 2 players, and there is no excessive data synchronisation which could be impeding it.

One other video I'd like to show is regarding how high a difference it makes when 2 Europeans use UDP against eachother, compared to normal TCP:



While I do pull off several delayed hits in the first segment, this is against another European, inwhich we both have a ping averaging around 200, so it's a behaviour I had expected.

With peer-to-peer UDP enabled however, there is a highly reduced delay between us, as not only is UDP faster, but data isn't having to travel all the way to the USA and back to Europe again. Because of this, the hits were nearer to real time.
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  #44  
Old 07-20-2012, 10:28 PM
Hezzy002 Hezzy002 is offline
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dude just do what i said they you can diagnose a shitload of problems u scrub

Also, are you doing the sword checks by gani or are you using some other mechanism like triggering the server to trigger other clients to place hitboxes?
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  #45  
Old 07-20-2012, 10:57 PM
ffcmike ffcmike is offline
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Originally Posted by Hezzy002 View Post
Also, are you doing the sword checks by gani or are you using some other mechanism like triggering the server to trigger other clients to place hitboxes?
The checks are scanning other players gani on your client, there are no hitbox triggers involved at all.
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