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  #16  
Old 10-31-2008, 11:55 PM
Horrified Horrified is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu View Post
I like a variety of levels, even if they're not used, honestly. Valikorlia, last I checked (if /stats is correct), has well over 1,000 levels. I mean well over. I wouldn't sacrifice this for finishing a server faster.
Yes, and remind me how long Valikorlia has existed At least 6 years?

Time factor and quality over quantity is much more important.
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  #17  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:00 AM
LoneAngelIbesu LoneAngelIbesu is offline
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Originally Posted by Horrified View Post
Yes, and remind me how long Valikorlia has existed At least 6 years?

Time factor and quality over quantity is much more important.
The current version of Valikorlia has only existed for (if even) a year. All new levels were made. A good team should be able to output a high quantity of quality levels. I will give you that Valikorlia's vast amount of levels is a necessity, and that other servers probably won't be RP servers that need the environment. However, 50 levels does not a interesting server make.
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  #18  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu View Post
The current version of Valikorlia has only existed for (if even) a year. All new levels were made. A good team should be able to output a high quantity of quality levels. I will give you that Valikorlia's vast amount of levels is a necessity, and that other servers probably won't be RP servers that need the environment. However, 50 levels does not a interesting server make.
How much staff does Valikorlia have? And I'm sure they also have high quality staff members; you expect to have yourself with a bunch of top-notch levelers?
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  #19  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:16 AM
LoneAngelIbesu LoneAngelIbesu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horrified View Post
How much staff does Valikorlia have? And I'm sure they also have high quality staff members; you expect to have yourself with a bunch of top-notch levelers?
At the time, we had around 2-3 active level makers at any given time. I don't buy the excuse that classic servers get all the talented staff. Our LATs start out knowing only the basics. I started out knowing only the basics, and I became LAT Chief during the development of the initial version release.

What managers need to do is find at least one good level maker. They don't have to be great. They just have to be good. That person hires somebody else that has an interest in learning, and teaches them. It's the same with scripting, and all other developing jobs.

People starting a server today are looking for the best of the best, and won't accept anything lower. These people just don't exist. The best of the best are working on other servers, which is how they've gotten as good as they are.

If I were going to start my own server, I would take the entire year subscription and use it for pure development. I wouldn't have a goal of getting the server out in that year. I would just make a goal of getting all the core systems made, the main levels made, a good selection of graphics made. With enough luck, I would be finished by the time my subscription ran out, and I would attempt to get it hosted. If I'm not finished, I spend the money and pay for another 6 months. The bottom line is that these people don't realize that making a server isn't something to jump in to. You need a plan, and you need the financial backing.
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  #20  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu View Post
At the time, we had around 2-3 active level makers at any given time. I don't buy the excuse that classic servers get all the talented staff. Our LATs start out knowing only the basics. I started out knowing only the basics, and I became LAT Chief during the development of the initial version release.

What managers need to do is find at least one good level maker. They don't have to be great. They just have to be good. That person hires somebody else that has an interest in learning, and teaches them. It's the same with scripting, and all other developing jobs.

People starting a server today are looking for the best of the best, and won't accept anything lower. These people just don't exist. The best of the best are working on other servers, which is how they've gotten as good as they are.

If I were going to start my own server, I would take the entire year subscription and use it for pure development. I wouldn't have a goal of getting the server out in that year. I would just make a goal of getting all the core systems made, the main levels made, a good selection of graphics made. With enough luck, I would be finished by the time my subscription ran out, and I would attempt to get it hosted. If I'm not finished, I spend the money and pay for another 6 months. The bottom line is that these people don't realize that making a server isn't something to jump in to. You need a plan, and you need the financial backing.
Yes, but that's why I think it's rediculous that people want such big things done. I didn't say that I'd have a 50 level GMap and it'd never evolve, I'm just saying with limited skills and a limited amount of time and dedication because it's not a classic server, I don't think it's reasonable to grow to something bigger until you get public.
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  #21  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:25 AM
LoneAngelIbesu LoneAngelIbesu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horrified View Post
Yes, but that's why I think it's rediculous that people want such big things done. I didn't say that I'd have a 50 level GMap and it'd never evolve, I'm just saying with limited skills and a limited amount of time and dedication because it's not a classic server, I don't think it's reasonable to grow to something bigger until you get public.
But is that selling themselves short? I mean, UC server are compared to Classic servers when they're trying to go Hosted. Making such a limited amount of levels might hurt their chances, wouldn't it?
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  #22  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu View Post
But is that selling themselves short? I mean, UC server are compared to Classic servers when they're trying to go Hosted. Making such a limited amount of levels might hurt their chances, wouldn't it?
Not if you make it up by having much more promising content in the levels. You can fit, and do, a lot in a 50 level map.
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  #23  
Old 11-01-2008, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horrified View Post
There's only about a handful of rediculously great scripters on Graalonline, for example. I mean people that have taken college courses. One of them is, of course, Stefan. I'm sure you can pick out the others. These guys can tackle big things
I agree with a lot of things posted in this thread, and much of your post, but I think this is the entirely wrong attitude. Programming and especially gscript is not some mysterious craft that only a select few can learn.

Graal basically provides the game "architecture" anyway. If you were supposed to write your entirely own game, you could easily run into a lot of bad decisions that make everything harder, but in Graal you can mostly just throw more code at whatever problem until it goes away. If you have a few competent (not necessarily "rediculous") people figuring out how everything fits together, scripting a very custom server is not rocket science.

I do not want to belittle awesome scripters or claim that they do not deserve the respect they receive, because I do think that they are what really makes or breaks playerworlds. But if people had a bit less awe and more of a "I am going to figure out how this works" attitude, they could get much further. If all those people who are all "hey I am not a scripter I just do ____" got to terms with the fact that scripting is supremely important for server development and just went ahead and learned it, I am sure we would have a lot more interesting servers or at least ideas in the game, even if they use the default graphics or reuse old artwork.
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  #24  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:11 PM
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Graal is deadwieght in the mmo industry, pricing model is completely wrong for this type of game. Consquently bad business decisions have resulted in a stagnent player base. Few players means fewer developers means less content. For a user content driven game CJ has made it very unattractive. Developers are getting old and are drifting away from the game, there are not enough talented new developers coming in to keep graal going forever.
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  #25  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu View Post
At the time, we had around 2-3 active level makers at any given time. I don't buy the excuse that classic servers get all the talented staff. Our LATs start out knowing only the basics. I started out knowing only the basics, and I became LAT Chief during the development of the initial version release.
No. That's not true!

Classic/Gold servers only hire the best of the best. Under Construction servers need to be happy if they find one or two good developers, those are probably some their friends that they have.
I know that, because I've been a LAT for many years, worked on both many under construction servers, classic tab server and H-Tab server.
Classic tab servers gets the best people, it's obvious. The person who is working for that server doesn't need to buy gold every month and that server have more players/get more attention.

Quote:
What managers need to do is find at least one good level maker. They don't have to be great. They just have to be good. That person hires somebody else that has an interest in learning, and teaches them. It's the same with scripting, and all other developing jobs.
It doesn't work like that. Developing is not like a chinese factory.
People don't get good at making levels / graphics in two days, it takes YEARS. Alright, I'll buy scriptings... but making levels, graphics etc. No one can learn anyone about that. Everyone have their own style and their own developement process!

Quote:
People starting a server today are looking for the best of the best, and won't accept anything lower. These people just don't exist. The best of the best are working on other servers, which is how they've gotten as good as they are.
The do exist, like on GK & Zone and on some other classic tab servers. The other talented people are working on their own projects.

Quote:
If I were going to start my own server, I would take the entire year subscription and use it for pure development. I wouldn't have a goal of getting the server out in that year. I would just make a goal of getting all the core systems made, the main levels made, a good selection of graphics made. With enough luck, I would be finished by the time my subscription ran out, and I would attempt to get it hosted. If I'm not finished, I spend the money and pay for another 6 months. The bottom line is that these people don't realize that making a server isn't something to jump in to. You need a plan, and you need the financial backing.
Most of the developers are getting old and therefor have a pretty busy IRL life too. It's hard to find time to make all those things in a certain time. If you work all alone, it might be easy to follow the plans. But you have to count in the : Staff working process, PWA inspection process etc. Which are impossible to plan!

My point is: It's almost impossible to follow the plans, it's really not as easy as you think.
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  #26  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Horrified View Post
Not if you make it up by having much more promising content in the levels. You can fit, and do, a lot in a 50 level map.
I doubt it would go further than H-Tab.
It's not that easy as you may think to get to the classic tab.
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  #27  
Old 11-01-2008, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horrified View Post
Not if you make it up by having much more promising content in the levels. You can fit, and do, a lot in a 50 level map.
I like large spaces, and pretty long games =P
If it isn't the same thing everywhere, then it becomes interessting

I already played some games that were interessting, but the only thing you had to do was walk, kill something, and bring back stuff

Map was nice, but seriously walking over all the gmap and do it backwards all the time is very boring.

So at least a very nice map, with lot of space, and where you could think of some sort of category, for exemple quests about a mountain, with a city around idk
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  #28  
Old 11-01-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandralove View Post
I like large spaces, and pretty long games =P
If it isn't the same thing everywhere, then it becomes interessting

I already played some games that were interessting, but the only thing you had to do was walk, kill something, and bring back stuff

Map was nice, but seriously walking over all the gmap and do it backwards all the time is very boring.

So at least a very nice map, with lot of space, and where you could think of some sort of category, for exemple quests about a mountain, with a city around idk
I really don't think Graal playerworlds are fit to be this type of "massive" game. Different servers that each have there own thing going on, and aren't trying to steal playercount from each other by "bettering" what others have and instead having different things going for each other, is better then one gigantic server.

Everyone going "my server is like this..." and having a completely different idea from each other is much better then comparing it to an already existing state like "Classic, RPG or Modern." I think if people stopped getting inspiration from and trying to emulate existing games and making it be it's own in 2D Graal, the different things this game could do could be awesome. I know that sounds weird considering Graal itself is basically a clone of Zelda, but yeah.
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  #29  
Old 11-01-2008, 06:31 PM
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Lowering your standards and making a server half the size of the servers on the classic tab isn't a sure-fire way for success. It's just not that simple... it will probably lessen the workload, but not but as much as you imagine... people usually give up before they even have 50 levels of the overworld done, and half of the systems... so ya, I don't think LESS=SUCCESS as simply as you imagine it, Horrified.
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  #30  
Old 11-01-2008, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva View Post
Lowering your standards and making a server half the size of the servers on the classic tab isn't a sure-fire way for success. It's just not that simple... it will probably lessen the workload, but not but as much as you imagine... people usually give up before they even have 50 levels of the overworld done, and half of the systems... so ya, I don't think LESS=SUCCESS as simply as you imagine it, Horrified.
I think less is more attractive. People don't want to make 300 levels in the long run, so they stop...if they know that they only need 50, they'll push themselves because they think it's more of a reasonable amount.

edit: I don't think you should lower standards at all, just 50 levels should insure quality really.
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