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  #31  
Old 05-25-2012, 03:40 PM
BlueMelon BlueMelon is offline
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I agree with the F2P model. I beleive Graal might even make a ton more using it. (More players + more buyable items)
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  #32  
Old 05-25-2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueMelon View Post
I agree with the F2P model. I beleive Graal might even make a ton more using it. (More players + more buyable items)
Unless someone wants to make a presentation on the comparisons of why F2P vs P2P, I don't see them wanting to go with it
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
PC Graal was has been rotting from incompetence since v5's release. The iServers have raked in more players than we've ever seen on this game and PC Graal's only real salvation post subscription-fix is convergence.
While I don't disagree, it still is the case that instead of them fixing the incompetence, they just go and create and entirely new thing to eventually be incompetent about. Then they can take the two and put them together and be incompetent about both of them.

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Doesn't stop iSparrers from beating PC users and even hopping on FB and competing + beating UN based guilds like Mother (consisting of Talbourn, Zeross, etc) in the GST. Smurf if you have to, but I want you to make a fake FB, get on iClassic, and start sparring because your view is incredibly off.
I'll do this at the end of the month, when I'm not on an IBM keyboard that freezes up when you hit more than 4 keys at once.

I'll log on with no practice for over 8 months (Pretty sure that's how long it's been since I really sparred. I did spar like 3-4 times before leaving for Europe (and still won) but I wouldn't call that being practiced) and series some kids. I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me. No PC-users-turned-idevice-users allowed. It'll be fun - maybe you'll be right, maybe I'll be right. If you want to do tag-teams I can ask Zid to come with me and we'll reform skullgang.
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  #34  
Old 05-25-2012, 04:14 PM
Rufus Rufus is offline
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Praydoh a "higher level sparrer" lololol
Yeah, I think so. Especially going by your own logic here, where he has won UTC quite a few times and spars on par with the people that Crono mentioned:

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I mean come on dude, have you ever even won UTC? You would lose to every single person you've mentioned in a series, easily if they're on top of their game.
That video is from a UTC final round.

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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
And you do realize that there is strafing going on there right? Some of those movements are impossible without it. It's especially obvious when either of them blink, and Squirt utilizes the strafing better to move while holding the blink (and abuses walls like he always does) and looks like he won pretty easily.
I guess this is where your inexperience on the ACTUAL subject shows. Squirt does nothing in that spar that you cannot do on an iPod. If you look at the last round in the video especially, all Squirt does is circle PrayDoh to hit him. I see once where he tries to strafe, hit and it doesn't land. That is why I do not believe that strafing is necessary for "higher sparring" as you put it. Many of the iPod sparrers on iPhone Classic spar like this, and I've actually seen him do it himself on an iPod.

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I'll log on with no practice for over 8 months (Pretty sure that's how long it's been since I really sparred. I did spar like 3-4 times before leaving for Europe (and still won) but I wouldn't call that being practiced) and series some kids. I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me. No PC-users-turned-idevice-users allowed. It'll be fun - maybe you'll be right, maybe I'll be right. If you want to do tag-teams I can ask Zid to come with me and we'll reform skullgang.
This arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering that you've always lagged to your own advantage in the last few times I've seen you spar on Unholy Nation.
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  #35  
Old 05-25-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I guess this is where your inexperience on the ACTUAL subject shows. Squirt does nothing in that spar that you cannot do on an iPod. If you look at the last round in the video especially, all Squirt does is circle PrayDoh to hit him. I see once where he tries to strafe, hit and it doesn't land. That is why I do not believe that strafing is necessary for "higher sparring" as you put it. Many of the iPod sparrers on iPhone Classic spar like this, and I've actually seen him do it himself on an iPod.
Perhaps the movements are to miniscule for you to really notice them? Or perhaps you don't understand how blink-mechanics work well enough to know how to move sideways while holding the blink - a movement which in certain directions requires strafing? Go to 1 minute, and watch how Praydoh moves upwards to the left to hold his blink - that movement is not possible on IBM keyboards because you cannot strafe in that direction.

Or maybe you didn't see how there were practically zero sidehits the entire spar, a technique which requires strafing to pull off without the opponent running into you?

Using Praydoh, who is an above average sparrer but and certainty NOT on par with those Crono mentioned, and Squirt, who uses walls to his advantage more than anything to win as examples of not needing strafing to win is pretty poor.

What is with you and Crono suddenly thinking you know how to spar? Has the population decreased so drastically that you're considered good now? You guys are decent, sure, but high tier? I'm sorry, but no.

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This arrogance is embarrassing, especially considering that you've always lagged to your own advantage in the last few times I've seen you spar on Unholy Nation.
Now you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone who knows how I spar knows that I get better the less I lag. I'm a defensive ***** who only attacks where I can score sidehits, land an easy move-to-where-they're-going-to-be-after-getting-hit hit (which is what I only used to do before blink was fixed) or because they get sick of chasing me around and I switch things up and go all out offense until they try again. The less I lag, the more likely I am to mindtrick someone in to allowing me to hit them, or forcing them to run into my sword.

This is the difference between me holding an average 2k/high 1900 rating versus the 1800 or so I've held the last few years. Sparrers I typically beat actually beat me more consistently because I'm lagging.

The lag I have been experiencing is why I've slowly sparred less and less, up until now where I hardly spar at all. I've even sat out of those friendly tag-team spars that pop up BECAUSE I lag too much. Is that using lag to my advantage - not sparring at all because of it?
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  #36  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Crono View Post
Again, not helping your argument. The fact that servers are so different would bring even MORE appeal to servers like Zodiac and Valikorlia. Whether a server is cross-platform or not doesn't matter.
You're only looking at it on the high end of the scale, when the effects can cause it go both ways. Weighing it up, the pulling power of simply being a different alternative server isn't as strong as playercount in itself. Given that these servers would have the advantage of being accessible on iPhone, Facebook and Android, while the normal PC servers would be one platform only, ofcourse they could suffer.
I'm not saying normal PC servers would necessarily die out as a result, but it could prevent them from flourishing, inwhich there'd still be the same global lack of developmental incentive, opportunity and motivation, which is bad for Graal.

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There would be no more "PC Graal" "iPhone Graal" "Android Graal", yes you can play on multiple devices depending on the server, and yes things like spars would probably be seperated based on what platform you're playing on (computer / portable).
What about PKing, Guild forts and every other form of spec-reliant combat competition?
Would they be segregated too?
If so that kindof overrides one of the main points of being cross platform in the first place.
If you're only going to have PC users sparring other PC users within meaningful competitions, that's very time inefficient to be staffed and developed for the sake of one server. It makes more sense to have each platform catering to their respective set of players, where a more prosperous PC Graal (also development platform) makes it more viable for such competitions to be developed on both platforms, either directly or through system sharing.
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  #37  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:06 PM
Rufus Rufus is offline
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
Go to 1 minute, and watch how Praydoh moves upwards to the left to hold his blink - that movement is not possible on IBM keyboards because you cannot strafe in that direction.
All I see at 1 minute is Prado getting hit three times in a row by Squirt who is not strafing at all. Must be my lack of spar skills, or hell, could it be that without side strafing you can compete at higher levels of sparring? Or maybe Squirt, who won the tournament, isn't high enough level for you. Etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
Or maybe you didn't see how there were practically zero sidehits the entire spar, a technique which requires strafing to pull off without the opponent running into you?
There are several side hits throughout the video. Yes, there is a bias towards right-facing hits, but there are still left-facing hits which cannot be strafed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
What is with you and Crono suddenly thinking you know how to spar? Has the population decreased so drastically that you're considered good now? You guys are decent, sure, but high tier? I'm sorry, but no.
I'm pretty sure that neither of us even implied that we were 'high tier' but that is not relevant at all. It does not take someone who is 'high tier' to know how to spar on a PC, have access to iPods, and have sparred on both to understand the limitations. You haven't done this, so how you can think you're some big guru on the subject is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
The lag I have been experiencing is why I've slowly sparred less and less, up until now where I hardly spar at all. I've even sat out of those friendly tag-team spars that pop up BECAUSE I lag too much. Is that using lag to my advantage - not sparring at all because of it?
Okay so you lag and you're saying **** like "I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me." Yeah no, that's definitely an arrogant and embarrassing attitude to me.
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  #38  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ffcmike View Post
You're only looking at it on the high end of the scale, when the effects can cause it go both ways. Weighing it up, the pulling power of simply being a different alternative server isn't as strong as playercount in itself. Given that these servers would have the advantage of being accessible on iPhone, Facebook and Android, while the normal PC servers would be one platform only, ofcourse they could suffer.
I'm not saying normal PC servers would necessarily die out as a result, but it could prevent them from flourishing, inwhich there'd still be the same global lack of developmental incentive, opportunity and motivation, which is bad for Graal.
I honestly can't believe you still view it at that incredibly unrealistic angle. If you increase the amount of people logging on through computers you're increasing the total playerpool and will inevitably increase the playercount of other servers, even by a minimal amount.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike
What about PKing, Guild forts and every other form of spec-reliant combat competition?
There aren't complaints about it outside of sparring and strafing is such a minimal effect in those fields that it isn't important.
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  #39  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:29 PM
Hiro Hiro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
All I see at 1 minute is Prado getting hit three times in a row by Squirt who is not strafing at all. Must be my lack of spar skills, or hell, could it be that without side strafing you can compete at higher levels of sparring? Or maybe Squirt, who won the tournament, isn't high enough level for you. Etc etc.
I was talking about Praydoh's movements. I even told you the direction he was going. So I guess you really can't tell.

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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
There are several side hits throughout the video. Yes, there is a bias towards right-facing hits, but there are still left-facing hits which cannot be strafed.
Sidehits are not simply "hits taken from the side" as the face-value of the term suggests.


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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I'm pretty sure that neither of us even implied that we were 'high tier' but that is not relevant at all. It does not take someone who is 'high tier' to know how to spar on a PC, have access to iPods, and have sparred on both to understand the limitations. You haven't done this, so how you can think you're some big guru on the subject is beyond me.
All I've been arguing is that strafing is necessary for good sparring. The only argument back is "you can win without it" which is like saying you can use the numpad to move around and win but you'll be at an obvious disadvantage, and no one good does that.

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Okay so you lag and you're saying **** like "I'll be the definitive PC sparrer to represent over 10 years of "PC Sparring" even though I'm not considered the best of all time, and you round up all the top iSparrers to try and defeat me." Yeah no, that's definitely an arrogant and embarrassing attitude to me.
Sure, I'm ****y when it comes to sparring, what of it? I win a lot.

And I'll fix up my lag once I'm home. I got a new router recently which I think was most of my lag problem (I hope).
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  #40  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:35 PM
Rufus Rufus is offline
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
I was talking about Praydoh's movements. I even told you the direction he was going. So I guess you really can't tell.
So Prado is strafing it's not actually doing anything for him as he's hit three times in a row, yet you believe that it is imperative to higher sparring?

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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
All I've been arguing is that strafing is necessary for good sparring. The only argument back is "you can win without it" which is like saying you can use the numpad to move around and win but you'll be at an obvious disadvantage, and no one good does that.
I am not contesting that strafing is or isn't an advantage in sparring, but I do not believe that it is tantamount to a 'higher sparring level'. As Crono said, strafing is a technical advantage but you don't need it to win against someone of equal skill. Decent iPhone sparrers can beat experienced PC sparrers and they do not have the ability to strafe.
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  #41  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crono View Post
I honestly can't believe you still view it at that incredibly unrealistic angle. If you increase the amount of people logging on through computers you're increasing the total playerpool and will inevitably increase the playercount of other servers, even by a minimal amount.
Once again you're only looking at it in one direction. You have to get the amount of visitors via migration from mobile servers, and factor in the playercount PC servers would lose up-front, as well as the effect of being the 3rd/4th/5th/6th choice tried server as a result of playercount based list order.
Nobody can really be sure one way or the other, it is wrong to make such a definitive assumption.

A prosperous PC Graal however would not have negative consequences to the playercount of the iPhone servers, while a more inciting development platform without the current bottlenecking could have positive consequences for the iPhone servers.

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There aren't complaints about it outside of sparring and strafing is such a minimal effect in those fields that it isn't important.
When I first mentioned strafing I didn't mean it as the single one and only technical advantage PC users have, I'm surprised such a big argument is being made regarding that alone. Blink is also an important aspect of sparring, plus frame rate would be important in crowded locations such as guild forts.
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  #42  
Old 05-25-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
So Prado is strafing it's not actually doing anything for him as he's hit three times in a row, yet you believe that it is imperative to higher sparring?
He didn't use it very well, and Squirt is better than him. Squirt strafes a bit in that spar as well, want me to find you a specific instance for him to?


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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I am not contesting that strafing is or isn't an advantage in sparring, but I do not believe that it is tantamount to a 'higher sparring level'. As Crono said, strafing is a technical advantage but you don't need it to win against someone of equal skill. Decent iPhone sparrers can beat experienced PC sparrers and they do not have the ability to strafe.
But it is. Sure they can compete, but they won't be high tier. They won't have access to the techniques which strafing allows, and if someone good takes advantage of that, they will be able to win any series against them.

You don't have to believe me. You and Crono clearly don't, and that's fine. There is a lot more to sparring than just strafing, but most of the high tier sparrers use it for a reason.
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  #43  
Old 05-29-2012, 12:51 AM
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Good to see people haven't forgotten about the competitive side of Graal. Sick of people saying "It's a chat room"
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