Most important skill

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by zokemon

Except the majority of all Graal servers just suck completely in every department so you can't really use that...

Unfortunately true... one good thing about dev packs so far: atleast developers won't be so spread out.

Speaking of which, was any information released yet?

[MrAnonymous_P2P]

You can make a really awesome server with just amazing scripts. You can't have a cool server without neat scripts. Even if the graphics were amazing.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by MrAnonymous_P2P

You can't have a cool server without neat scripts.

Yeah you can.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Yeah you can.

By cool he most likely means a server with hundreds of useless NPCs.

and I agree!

[Codein]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Yeah you can.

Good old hack-n-slash quests, pull/push puzzles and lava mazes. Oooh, nostalgia ^_^

[Sulukra]

Originally Posted by Inverness

I'll be sure to implement that on Val

Actually, chat history would be absolutely brilliant on Val - would stop people from having to repeat posts.

[Selflon_p2p]

Whatever happened to the old school LAT, without all the fancy branches, the one that was expected to do all the tiling AND scripting themselves?...

[theHAWKER]

anyone who is good at art and balance would be good at lat and/or gat.

nat's take more training and practice...

[Black_Wallstreet]

If you had no levels, you would have no server.

[DustyPorViva]

It can work in every direction.
A server with good scripts could possibly do well without great levels or graphics. I'm sure no one plays Zodiac for its graphics or levels. Just the system it uses.
A server with good levels and simple scripts could be just as successful, it never stopped Classic or UN.
A server with good graphics may not need good levels because a good tileset can make any level look pretty. The same applies for the scripts, doesn't need anything great to be successful.

So as for what's most important, it depends on what you want. You're probably not going to get far trying to make an advanced RPG server with complex systems if you can only offer levels or graphics. On the other hand, you would probably be able to get far making a classic-type server.

[Darklux]

Nat, as you are lucky if you have some.

Many people can learn making levels and ganis.
Fewer good gfx.

And even few people coding... but good coders are usually already bound to big projects.

[Inverness]

All your arguments fail. Levels and Graphics are rendered in Graal using scripting.

Win.

[Horrified]

graphics > all.

no beauty, no epic wins in your server, because everyone complains your gfx suck, and that's not like scripts were none of the players see how horrible they're coded ;[

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Inverness

All your arguments fail. Levels and Graphics are rendered in Graal using scripting.

Win.

All your arguments fail. Basic scripts and graphics are already included in Graal's system and level editor.

Win.

Obtw I thought this was strictly lat vs gat vs nat...not some kind of WEL U KAN MAEK GRAFIX FROM LEVELS or U KAN SCRIPT TRIANGLES

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Obtw I thought this was strictly lat vs gat vs nat...not some kind of WEL U KAN MAEK GRAFIX FROM LEVELS or U KAN SCRIPT TRIANGLES

True, NAT is the most important because it makes all the graphics and levels work together. If you want to cast your fancy spells and use cool weapons, scripts are going to have to tell your fancy graphics what to do.

I'd say the results of the pull supports this.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Inverness

True, NAT is the most important because it makes all the graphics and levels work together. If you want to cast your fancy spells and use cool weapons, scripts are going to have to tell your fancy graphics what to do.

Not really. If we're talking specific, the levels are essential because you have nothing to put the graphics into or your precious systems. If you're generating levels using scripts you're basically LATing anyway so your argument is then null and void because you're tring to say that scripting > creating levels.

I'd say the results of the pull supports this.

In my opinion it's because no one gives a **** about good levels anymore.

[Horrified]

Originally Posted by Gerami

In my opinion it's because no one gives a **** about good levels anymore.

I thought people said back in the day, any old level that came out was spiffy.

Now, you need to have all this fancy details and it needs to serve more then just a purpose of having a place for you to idle in; you have to idle in a place that looks pretty.

I'd say that people do care, considering all the people who hate most of the levels that aren't good in the LAT section...and have you heard about Maloria's levels? Good lord, I'd say people care about those being fixed more then Maloria coming out o_O

[Crono]

I'd say that people do care

Zodiac is a walking tile error but it obviously didn't stop them from going public. Players and globals alike don't really care for proper levels anymore.

[theHAWKER]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Zodiac is a walking tile error but it obviously didn't stop them from going public. Players and globals alike don't really care for proper levels anymore.

its a sad world we live in...

[Inverness]

The poll speaks for itself, I'm not going really bother arguing with that clear victory.

[haunter]

People are forgetting the most important and fundamental aspects of any project like this. As I mentioned before: Leadership. But also imagination. Before any thing can be scripted, tiled, or shaded the idea has to be there.

Case close.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Inverness

The poll speaks for itself, I'm not going really bother arguing with that clear victory.

No it doesn't. It just means people prefer NAT, doesn't mean its really the most important.

Practically, it depends on the server.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Gerami

No it doesn't. It just means people prefer NAT, doesn't mean its really the most important.

Practically, it depends on the server.

I wouldn't argue too much against it. Everything is important, but the lack of many good and free scripters isn't good and why no new playerworlds have really surfaced over the past years.

WanDaMan is a good example, he's surely made about 10 playerworlds in the last 3 years. 10 of which haven't been used as he gets to the point of needed a scripter but there is no one out there.

[zim5354]

While levels and GFX are important it all boils down to scripting, without scripting there is no reason for the GFX or levels.

[zokemon]

Originally Posted by Spark910

WanDaMan is a good example, he's surely made about 10 playerworlds in the last 3 years. 10 of which haven't been used as he gets to the point of needed a scripter but there is no one out there.

That's my story except change WanDaMan to Zero and change scripter to graphic artist.

I've really made my server though where there is no need for level builders (LATs as they are commonly known) since all of the stuff like such can just be developed by players (since the world is randomly generated with trees and other things everywhere) as the players can just go out, buy their own land plot and develop it how they wish.

Of course staff teams need to make towns and such but such work isn't really the same as level building...

In short: a good server only really needs one really good scripter and one really good graphic artist. I still have to go with the scripter being more important though since graphics can't be fully expressed without amazing scripts to display them. Scripts however can get by with simple graphics and default images (even though that sucks horribly). It's almost a tie in my opinion.

[MKxTortoise]

The most important skills are tenacity and activity.

[killerogue]

I find it funny how you all have overlooked the one statement by Inverness pointing out this game wouldn't even be here without the coding. Coding is most important. You cannot make gameplay with graphics and levels and no scripts. However you CAN make gameplay with just scripts.

So scripters w1n. You all have epically failed at your lives.

[MysticX2X]

For some reason that annoys me. I would never praise the ground a scripter walks on. or be like ''OMG U R LEETXORSZ"

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by killerogue

I find it funny how you all have overlooked the one statement by Inverness pointing out this game wouldn't even be here without the coding. Coding is most important. You cannot make gameplay with graphics and levels and no scripts. However you CAN make gameplay with just scripts.

So scripters w1n. You all have epically failed at your lives.

I would refuse to play a server with BAD gfx and BAD levels even if it did have great scripts.

[zokemon]

Originally Posted by zim5354

I would refuse to play a server with BAD gfx and BAD levels even if it did have great scripts.

We'll see about that.

[Thrashsoul3]

Originally Posted by zokemon

We'll see about that.

Your server isn't that interesting Zero.

[zokemon]

Originally Posted by Thrashsoul3

Your server isn't that interesting Zero.

It's unique and pretty damn successful for a RPG server that doesn't even have it's combat, monster, npc, skill, stat, equipment or leveling systems started yet. Once I get those, let's see if you still hold on to that claim.

You can't really say that without finishing the tutorial either since I can't grasp the possibilities in the server unless you know how to do things.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Gerami

No it doesn't. It just means people prefer NAT, doesn't mean its really the most important.

Practically, it depends on the server.

The poll askes for which position is more important, ignoring the clear victory of NAT just because you're not pleased with the results and trying to justify your reasoning with your weak assumptions about the voter's intent behind their votes is narrow-minded and ignorant.

You sir, are a sore loser.

The community has voted on which skill they believe is the most important, and NAT has clearly won. No amount of your reasoning is going to change the fact that the majority believes NAT is most important. You yourself may not believe this for obvious reasons but polls aren't created to find individual opinion.

Originally Posted by haunter

People are forgetting the most important and fundamental aspects of any project like this. As I mentioned before: Leadership. But also imagination. Before any thing can be scripted, tiled, or shaded the idea has to be there.

Case close.

All NATs should have imagination, if you don't please kill yourself before I do.

[Codein]

Originally Posted by Thrashsoul3

Your server isn't that interesting Zero.

What planet are you on? Atexia is awesome.

Originally Posted by Inverness

All NATs should have imagination, if you don't please kill yourself before I do.

But not all NATs have the innovation to create a fantastically unique server. Also, not all scripters have leadership skills.

I'm not very imaginative in terms of scripting but I still script, albeit I suck, so yeah *hands knife* kill me.

Go make a server that looks as good as it plays (meaning to the quality of Angelu's graphics and to the level quality of WanDaMan/Crono). If you can, I'll give you the applaud you need for being one of the scripters who were voted "most important" to Graal.
Hey look finally some half-logic in myself, some NATs like Skyld and Calani do good scripting but they can't make a good server even if their life depended on it. Their ego and arrogance degrade the server.
This thread was silly and only provided copious amounts of ego to those who are already filled the brim with it.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Inverness

The poll askes for which position is more important, ignoring the clear victory of NAT just because you're not pleased with the results and trying to justify your reasoning with your weak assumptions about the voter's intent behind their votes is narrow-minded and ignorant.

So are you gonna just keep flinging random words and insults or actually tell me why what the poll is saying is correct? (your big block of text below doesn't explain it by the way)

You sir, are a sore loser.

no u

The community has voted on which skill they believe is the most important, and NAT has clearly won. No amount of your reasoning is going to change the fact that the majority believes NAT is most important. You yourself may not believe this for obvious reasons but polls aren't created to find individual opinion.

Yeah, I know the community believes that NAT is the most important. But that still doesn't make it the most important.

If we all voted that Rufus was the best NAT on graal, would he really be?

Originally Posted by Spark910

WanDaMan is a good example, he's surely made about 10 playerworlds in the last 3 years. 10 of which haven't been used as he gets to the point of needed a scripter but there is no one out there.

Yeah but in return, look at Babylon. It has the scripts/gat's needed, but it's all relying on Inferno and me to finish the ow. It's been like this for a LONG time too. The lack of active LAT's is holding the entire project back.

Look at what was going on at Delteria. They needed people to work on that overworld. They have a great scripter or two, they certainly have awesome graphics, but at one point they were relying on LAT's to just get some kind of overworld done.

In all seriousness I'm not gonna go LOL LATZ MOST IMPORTANT, in my opinion all 3 suck alone. You can't make a good server with scripts only, you can't make a good server with graphics only, and you can't make a good server with levels only.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Gerami

or actually tell me why what the poll is saying is correct?

I don't know, maybe because the topic title is Most important skill and the poll title is LAT, GAT, NAT or Gani Team?. And people voted what they thought. Maybe thats why the poll is "correct?"

The purpose of polls is not to be 100% correct. Obviously from the results of the Poll, the majority voted NAT as most important by clear margin. There is no reason to disbelieve the results other than your own displeasure with them.

You're in denial or something so you're trying to think of some excuse as to why the poll would be wrong rather than just accepting that most people think NAT most important as the poll shows. Its rather immature.

Do you have some kind of insecurity in relation to this? I know that if it wasn't NAT that had the majority, yes I would be slightly displeased and that should be understandable, but it wouldn't affect the fact that NATs are still needed for a playerworld to be top quality in all aspects and I'm not going to accuse the voters of being in err just because of a slight displeasure, I wouldn't care enough about the poll to do it.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Inverness

I don't know, maybe because the topic title is Most important skill and the poll title is LAT, GAT, NAT or Gani Team?. And people voted what they thought. Maybe thats why the poll is "correct?"

It just means that most people believe NAT is the most important. It's obvious that it was going to win from the start but that still doesn't make it the most important. It just means the majority thinks that NAT is the most important skill. You're acting as if it absolutely is and making really retarded reasons too.

The purpose of polls is not to be 100% correct. Obviously from the results of the Poll, the majority voted NAT as most important by clear margin. There is no reason to disbelieve the results other than your own displeasure with them.

???

You're in denial or something so you're trying to think of some excuse as to why the poll would be wrong rather than just accepting that most people think NAT most important as the poll shows. Its rather immature.

Why are you throwing out insults and random **** without a proper reason? You keep saying that I think this and this way when you clearly have no clue.

Do you have some kind of insecurity in relation to this? I know that if it wasn't NAT that had the majority, yes I would be slightly displeased and that should be understandable, but it wouldn't affect the fact that NATs are still needed for a playerworld to be top quality in all aspects and I'm not going to accuse the voters of being in err just because of a slight displeasure, I wouldn't care enough about the poll to do it.

Either my posts are just really really badly worded or you totally misunderstood my post.

[Pimmeh]

Ok before Iverness responds to crono and more arguments follow.
You need all of them!
And with just NAT you cant get there. You cant get there with just levels, not with just graphics and really not with just gani's.
There?I mean the classic tab

[zokemon]

Originally Posted by Codein

But not all NATs have the innovation to create a fantastically unique server. Also, not all scripters have leadership skills.

I'm not very imaginative in terms of scripting but I still script, albeit I suck, so yeah *hands knife* kill me.

Once you have a very clear understanding of GS2, your level of scripting skill isn't just about the understanding any more but then also about your creativity and logic processing. Really complex and innovative things require a ton of imagination. Joe could be exactly the same as Bob in respects to how much they both understand GS2 but Joe would be ten times better then Bob if his imagination was better simply because he could utilize what he knew in a much more efficient fashion.

Do you think I could come up with the attached set of algorithms with out any imagination?

Originally Posted by Pimmeh

Ok before Iverness responds to crono and more arguments follow.
You need all of them!
And with just NAT you cant get there. You cant get there with just levels, not with just graphics and really not with just gani's.
There?I mean the classic tab

Sadly, you can.

[Codein]

Originally Posted by zokemon

Once you have a very clear understanding of GS2, your level of scripting skill isn't just about the understanding any more but then also about your creativity and logic processing. Really complex and innovative things require a ton of imagination. Joe could be exactly the same as Bob in respects to how much they both understand GS2 but Joe would be ten times better then Bob if his imagination was better simply because he could utilize what he knew in a much more efficient fashion.

Do you think I could come up with the attached set of algorithms with out any imagination?



Sadly, you can.

I get what you mean about imagination...

However, you're missing out big style on the importance of level design. Secret of Mana wasn't successful just for it's systems alone. It had great level design and graphics.