Scripting School

[protagonist]

Kaimetsu is a very good teacher, he doesn't give you the answer but helps you find it.

[Proxy]

*poke* I'll be there. o.o

[prozac424242]

Sounds like a good idea, I'm a bit rusty at gscript in particular,
but i find that once you know that basics of computer programming and how algorithms work, you just need to know how to say it in a differnt language (javascript, perl, mysql, gscript, can do the same thing but just say it in the language that the program you are working with understands).

(looks around for anyone else on these forums who has graduated college with a minor or better in computer science, runs a website with four million hits per week, and has been programming for twenty one years ... anyone else? There are still things about gscript id like to learn, and understand better, and the point to me sayign this is: the more you learn, the more you realise how much there is to learn and how little you actually know, so you know less than when you started...)

Might I suggest preparing to teach people by having a web form that you can check off on an outline what you want to learn about, then have that save to a database with the persons email, and the teachers who know the most about what is disired to know, can email the students and arrange a time for the session.

of course that means outlining all the levels of gscript, that npcprogramming.doc has an outline on the first few pages (that comes with graal, thats the one i mean), making that a web form where people can enter their email address/graal name and click what they want to learn and send that in. ya.
sorry to repeat my self but i am tired...

good idea, hope it pans out to happening

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Soul-Blade
Hmm would that really teach people to script? Dunno, personally I learned by studying other scripts

The approach may have worked for you, but it's not usually the best. If you go to a real school and ask them to teach you to program, do they give you lots of code and tell you to figure it out? Simply reading somebody else's code leads to nagging ambiguities and bad habits that only a human teacher can resolve.

Experience and time are the greatest teachers, and there is not a single way to replace them.

Absolutely, but we are not trying to replace those factors. We're giving people a platform on which to start their own experimentation.

I think all managers without knowledge of script should be forced to learn script, anywho, because how can you review scripting applicants if you cannot go through and debug the script, view the script, see how well it functions? Some people have impressive looking script, but inefficient, and long.

Well, that's what the certification idea is for.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally posted by Angel
Open Up a Server for 2 hours after class for people to come on and test out what they learned and we will be there to answer questions and help out.

Free NC for your NPCs if you take the class eh? That'll take some serious management on your guys' part... Heck, i'll learn/help teach if i get to use NC ^_^

PWA suffer from NC withdrawl

[James]

I'd definitely take the classes.

[Tseng]

Fun, fun. I'll be glad to help out, though quite honestly I'm not the best teacher. I'm a better critiquer/advisor. Consequently, I'm better at helping people along after they've already started than giving them that first push. I suppose I figure they need to push themselves to start, and once there I can assist.

And, I'm also quite interested in attending some of the more advanced ones myself - there's always something new to learn.

[prozac424242]

As my Pascal programming teacher said in my first year fo college,
as he handed out printed code to us students during a programming session,

"I could have emailed this all to you,
but to really learn it and make it stick, it has to go
through your eyes, into your brain, and out thorugh your fingers to the keyboard".

Examples of code are good, copy and pasting those examples is not advised (unless it is to a word processor that you can print them out), retyping them so that you understand how they work line by line is how you will really learn to program.

Anything that is learned, is used. To see how stuff is done then to not put it into practice, that was observation. Its the ability to repeat what was shown to you, and to even make it better.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by prozac424242
retyping them so that you understand how they work line by line is how you will really learn to program.

Yeah, if you assume that the person makes the effort to understand the code (what it does, why it was used, why alternatives were rejected etc), and doesn't just mindlessly copy it. In most cases that's an unfounded assumption, and that's why composition of your own code is the best way to learn.

[URBANLEGEND]

Teach me or feel my wrath!! Wa ha ha.... not really:o

[prozac424242]

Exactly Kai, I agree with you.

Like most learning processes, the amount you learn from npc lessons will be very much related to what you put into them.

it will not work to just be a sponge and copy the chat text.
The teachers should give the students 'homework' and have them make their own NPC related to the subject in hand, on their own, before going on to the next lesson.
that does, however, require an honor system and a level of trust.

hope for the best, and prepare for the worst i guess?

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by prozac424242
it will not work to just be a sponge and copy the chat text.

Well, nobody is going to be under any obligation to complete any exercises. But regardless, the lessons probably won't involve complete scripts; they'll be more about explaining the fragments that make up those scripts. The intention is that people will - under the proper guidance - be able to construct their own scripts once they understand these building blocks.

And then in the advanced lessons we might talk about multiple approaches to a problem, simple-but-underused concepts like precalculation etc.

[GhettoChild]

Kai just signed his way into a real big time taker uper. lol.

[TripleE]

Will this cost money?

[slimchance11]

Doubt it.

The way I see it, the more scripters graal has, the better graal is, and they shouldn't charge us to make graal better XD

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by TripleE
Will this cost money?

No, not at all.

[Neonight]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


No, not at all.

Where's my cheese sandwich? >:[

[konidias]

I'm interesting in taking the class.... Can you fill us in on what skill levels the classes will be and what they would mainly focus around? I don't think I'd need the beginner skill level, I really only have trouble with more advanced things.

[SingleChance]

excellent idea
i've been wanting to learn some scripting but never had the time to go through tutorials...now this will finally give me a push forward to learn

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by konidias
I'm interesting in taking the class.... Can you fill us in on what skill levels the classes will be and what they would mainly focus around? I don't think I'd need the beginner skill level, I really only have trouble with more advanced things.

It's not all been defined yet. I imagine it will be something like this:

Beginner class:
To be decided (depends on new scripting engine)

Intermediate class:
All NPC Server stuff. Somebody else can teach these classes.

Advanced course:
Coding standards
Strategies for emulating multi-dimensional arrays
Discussion of precalculation and other such efficiency issues
Maybe some mathematical stuff?
Various case studies (we get a problem, we work through it in real-time)
Probably some other stuff.

[Soul-Blade]

Bleh, sounds boring.

Kai, what is with you and precalculation anyway? Either way, graal must calculate it, whether precalculated or not, precalculation just adds another few bytes to the memory, so I could only imagine it is less efficient.

[Golbez]

Who ever said scripting was fun to learn? lol
I want to learn myself so I can help out Syb's server.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Soul-Blade
Bleh, sounds boring.

What would you recommend to be taught under the Advanced section?

Kai, what is with you and precalculation anyway? Either way, graal must calculate it, whether precalculated or not, precalculation just adds another few bytes to the memory

Evidently you don't understand the principle behind it (probably a good reason to attend the class ).

BAD:

NPC Code:

---

function drawLights(){

 for(i=0;i!=lightcount;i++){

  showimg ic,light2.png,this.lightx[i],this.lighty[i];

  changeimgcolors ic,1,1,1,sin(this.time)*(1/this.ambient);

 }

}

---

GOOD:

NPC Code:

---

function drawLights(){

 temp=sin(this.time)*(1/this.ambient);

 for(i=0;i!=lightcount;i++){

  showimg ic,light2.png,this.lightx[i],this.lighty[i];

  changeimgcolors ic,1,1,1,temp;

 }

}

---

You can't see that the latter is more efficient?

[konidias]

Yes, in some situations, precalculation is good. As in the example Kai showed. It would have to recalculate that value a lot of times in the for loop, while if it's set before the for loop, then it only needs to read the final value.

Of course, precalculating isn't always necassary. If you have an event that is only going to run one time, there isn't a need.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by konidias
Of course, precalculating isn't always necassary. If you have an event that is only going to run one time, there isn't a need.

Well, it's only worth considering if a value is to be used multiple times. Be aware that for loops aren't the only places where it happens.

[Shiftk03-]

I'm pretty confident in my scripting, but I'd start from basic, just for the point of bettering myself.

[konidias]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


Well, it's only worth considering if a value is to be used multiple times. Be aware that for loops aren't the only places where it happens.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say. =p

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Shiftk03-
I'm pretty confident in my scripting, but I'd start from basic, just for the point of bettering myself.

There's some discussion over whether or not to wait for the new scripting engine to be released before we start on the Basic classes. If we do then it might be advantageous for experienced scripters to attend; the new stuff is going to change things dramatically.

[Dach]

YaY, now I can learn server scripts without applying myself to anything!

[craig17]

this is ausome i was lerning scipting on my own bt now theres a class for it sweet deal, im in LOL ill lern to type on the side guys lol

[CheeToS2]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


There's some discussion over whether or not to wait for the new scripting engine to be released before we start on the Basic classes. If we do then it might be advantageous for experienced scripters to attend; the new stuff is going to change things dramatically.

Ok, you're the third person i've seen mention a new scripting engine. When/where did Stefan mention it? How is it going to be formatted differently? Why do it in the first place? Is he going to release a script converter along with it, or make it backwards compatible, or what? Im confused

[prozac424242]

Stefan did forum pm me that they are debating to allow offline scripting in the graal game, becasue of the new scripting engine he is working on. it is not totally clear on exactly what it all means.

And Kai, I am intersted in learning interpolation, like the runes script you posted long ago ... where it 'fills in the blanks' limited by the .05 timeout on drawing light on the mouse x and y, etc.

Also interested in the 3d engine principles, like in that script you made a year ago or so... that was cool. Every get it to work with the line drawing commad that Stefan added, to make a wireframe model?

And a note to everyone, don't argue with Kai becasue you will loose. I tried it before, and he is is just one smart cookie. Its better to be polite, what goes around comes around.

[Deek2]

Originally posted by CheeToS2


Ok, you're the third person i've seen mention a new scripting engine. When/where did Stefan mention it? How is it going to be formatted differently? Why do it in the first place? Is he going to release a script converter along with it, or make it backwards compatible, or what? Im confused

He was talking about it in Debug. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say thi or not, and I'm dredfully sorry if I'm not supposed to, but he was talking about how you can use server flags or something with (). I couldn't really understand it because it was a bunch of scripting mumbo jumbo.

[Qwert616]

I have been looking over the NSB and picking up a few things. I would probably attend a few classes.

[Projectshifter]

Wow, I swear to god this sounds exactly like an idea I had x-x
LOL, a good deal of people don't have IRC, but it would probably be best there. Give +aop to the GST and then make it so that you need +v to talk while lessons are on, and then take it off afterwards for questions. That still means people can PM us while it's going on, I dunno.
---Shifter

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by CheeToS2
When/where did Stefan mention it?

Various places. We've been discussing possible new features for it.

How is it going to be formatted differently?

Formatting will be mostly the same. There might be a new prefix for denoting strings, but I'm not sure about that.

Why do it in the first place?

You will know when you see it. It's a huge improvement.

Is he going to release a script converter along with it, or make it backwards compatible, or what?

Both, I think.

Originally posted by prozac424242
Stefan did forum pm me that they are debating to allow offline scripting in the graal game, becasue of the new scripting engine he is working on. it is not totally clear on exactly what it all means.

Hmm. I'm fairly sure that they'll be removing non-NPC-Server scripting. I think that's probably linked to the offline scripting stuff. But I guess we'll find out soon enough - Stefan seems to be making amazing progress.

And Kai, I am intersted in learning interpolation, like the runes script you posted long ago ... where it 'fills in the blanks' limited by the .05 timeout on drawing light on the mouse x and y, etc.

That'd be an easy thing to teach. Easier in real life with a chalkboard or something, but c'est la vie.

Also interested in the 3d engine principles, like in that script you made a year ago or so... that was cool. Every get it to work with the line drawing commad that Stefan added, to make a wireframe model?

Well, I changed over to showpoly (and hence made the polygonal sphere). Then I started writing my alternative to the depth buffer, but this thing was complicated, and I never quite finished it. It would've run pretty slowly anyway, though.

[Shiftk03-]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


There's some discussion over whether or not to wait for the new scripting engine to be released before we start on the Basic classes. If we do then it might be advantageous for experienced scripters to attend; the new stuff is going to change things dramatically.

You might not believe me but I figured this would happen so that I would definitly attend the Basic courses.

[Soul-Blade]

Still sounds rather boring. It seems like it will be like a text book with no fun. x-x, oh well, I don't plan on attending but who knows. I am entitled to a opinion anywho heh...

I hope it won't all be the solid, un funny Kaimetsu talk the whole time is all, if I do attend.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Soul-Blade
Still sounds rather boring. It seems like it will be like a text book with no fun.

Oh, not at all. Most of the lessons will involve copious amounts of both jelly and ice-cream, and hilarious party games like Spin the Bottle. The scripting thing is basically just a front.

I hope it won't all be the solid, un funny Kaimetsu talk the whole time is all, if I do attend.

Don't worry, I will be interspersing the information with hilarious photoshopped pictures and calling people homosexuals. That should boost the humor quotient by a few notches, huh?

YO: Most people want to go to the lessons so that they can learn something. It's not supposed to be some kind of wild party.

[superb]

XD That's one funny ass post! *bashes the pinata and steals Soul's jelly*