Allow players to object.

pooper200000 · #1 11-10-2006, 01:16 AM

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center? I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community? Then if a player has an objection it can be dealt with while also allowing the help of peers and or staff and while this happened it could help prevent this issue from happening yet again? Yet another question I ask in my complete ignorance of issues. Would it be possible to create a court system in the forums where the players have authority or something of or in that forum? I believes that if they were to have the players report a post if they believe it is spam and 5 persons were to report a post it would be deleted if there reasons all agreed. Moderators then would simply be the "cops" of the forums who would simply deal with deleting the suggested posts and closing threads. Yet another of this one's unintelligent questions must not continue. Would it be allowable for the players to simply object to infractions or simply want to know the full reason for the moderators deleteion of their threads/posts? I would like to know how a little over 400 of my 1700 posts are considered spam. I have gone back and counted how many posts I would have if they were not deleted. Most importantly could they allow a thread /and or forums that is moderated by a player such as Sklyd or another player who is respected and on much such as Gerami/cronosaur who can moderate the forums the moderators are not allowed to view. I believe that many enjoy being able to take their anger out on staff without the staff's knowledge. The forum would only be moderated to remove links. There is nothing wrong with the staff being made fun of and the players could make fun of them so they would not personally attack them anywhere else. Many moderators would be protected or made fun of by players and it would relieve the players greatly. Lastly would it be possible for the players to object to the rules and have them changed. Any help on this including reading this post would be appreciated!

The stupid,
Supernanny

Mykel · #2 11-10-2006, 01:21 AM

We are seen as whiney children.

And yes, while some of us are, the mods should use their own maturity and intelligence to weed through the immature users and the mature ones who bring up valid points. It's not that hard.

But they continue to do it. That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

Stephen · #3 11-11-2006, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel

But they continue to do it. That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

Things are not nearly as bad as they used to be. There's very little to complain about now, in my opinion.

zim5354 · #4 11-11-2006, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Things are not nearly as bad as they used to be. There's very little to complain about now, in my opinion.

...err...What fourms have you been at?

Crono · #5 11-10-2006, 01:21 AM

I think they made discussing the rules illegal, since so many of us complained about it. I mean it's not like it's a problem on other forums, just here. FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

Anyway, you can object to **** all you want. Just don't get yourself banned.

pooper200000 · #6 11-10-2006, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerami

I think they made discussing the rules illegal, since so many of us complained about it. I mean it's not like it's a problem on other forums, just here. FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

Anyway, you can object to **** all you want. Just don't get yourself banned.

Ok. Now explain why they think that so the player can attempt to make amends. The reasons are not so obvious to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel

We are seen as whiney children.

And yes, while some of us are, the mods should use their own maturity and intelligence to weed through the immature users and the mature ones who bring up valid points. It's not that hard.

But they continue to do it. That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

Explain why we are whiney children and how it can be fixed.

Crono · #7 11-10-2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Ok. Now explain why they think that so the player can attempt to make amends. The reasons are not so obvious to me.

Very dumb rules sometimes, the whole "you're all 13" attitude, strict moderation, stupid infractions, etc. I think I'll stop there since I don't feel like getting banned for another week -_-. I just got back, come on.

pooper200000 · #8 11-10-2006, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerami

Very dumb rules sometimes, the whole "you're all 13" attitude, strict moderation, stupid infractions, etc. I think I'll stop there since I don't feel like getting banned for another week -_-. I just got back, come on.

Ok you sure? I really want an explanation. Dumb rules such as? If they delete this and say support center than they are causing themselves more trouble anyway. They give us Your all 13 attitude I hav enever sinced that. All I have sensed is that they believe I am a stupid indiviadual and I can prove all but 2 of the staff wrong on that. Unixmad stefan sorry I can't prove you wrong. Your nice. Strict moderation is ok to an EXTENT! Stupid infractions? We can't tlak about those sorry this thread will not be deleted for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel

While some users deserved to be treated like they are children, others do not. It alienates them and in turn only results in more complaints. It's a cycle that wont stop until some changes are made.

What changes?

Crono · #9 11-10-2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Ok you sure? I really want an explanation. Dumb rules such as?

I can't really say more. From my experience people have been upset for a while now, and it's simply ignored. Not only that but stupid decisions like suddenly adding the infraction system really took the piss out of some people.

The forums weren't so bad in 2005, but 2004 was the beginning of suckage and 2006 has just been worse. Whatever.

Mykel · #10 11-10-2006, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

What changes?

Changes in the way the mods mod our forums. They have to mod on an individual basis.

Mykel · #11 11-10-2006, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Explain why we are whiney children and how it can be fixed.

A majority of us aren't. A lot of people just don't know how to voice a disagreement in a mature way. That happens on every forum.

There really isn't anyway that we, the players, can fix it. It doesn't matter how many mature, well-thought out threads we make about changes that we want, there will be people who make stupid ones.

The only change that can be made is by the mods. They have to realize that they can't punish everyone for a few stupid users. They have to use their own judgement, and treat the users how they deserved to be treated.

While some users deserved to be treated like they are children, others do not. It alienates them and in turn only results in more complaints. It's a cycle that wont stop until some changes are made.

Minoc · #12 11-10-2006, 01:37 AM

Paragraphs..

pooper200000 · #13 11-10-2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoc

Paragraphs..

Don't answer with spam give a complete answer or not at all minoc. Not all users prefer to write in paragraphs and many would find that quite pointless such as I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerami

Lol is this like a public interview with the daddy of teh pluffy or what.

I'm probably the only person with this opinion but I think the infraction system should just be removed, some of the rules (wont point out which) need to be changed/removed, and spark should be brought back. :/

It is in a way. Please be somewhat less vague. I agree spark should be brought back but that would require staff to be bigger people than the players. I am not going to say it can't happen.

Rufus · #14 11-10-2006, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center?

The support center is exactly that, for support, hence topics being closed with people asking for support that can not be given by just a regular player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community?

Some issues are, especially those that are less personal such as http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=69918

I guess a FAQ could be stickied somewhere (although there are far too many stickies already) with all the common questions posted (to then be closed) so it's easier, rather then routing through the rules to see if you've got grounds for posting, or going through the process of creating a support ticket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Would it be allowable for the players to simply object to infractions or simply want to know the full reason for the moderators deleteion of their threads/posts? I would like to know how a little over 400 of my 1700 posts are considered spam.

If you would like to know why your post/thread has been deleted, PM either Sam or Moonie, I know I have done and they both respond, although most of the time it's pretty obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

I believe that many enjoy being able to take their anger out on staff without the staff's knowledge.

There is nothing wrong with the staff being made fun of and the players could make fun of them so they would not personally attack them anywhere else.

I really don't see the need in having a forum which allows harassment of staff, it's not needed and it's not nice, take it elsewhere or just grow up and let it go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Would it be possible for the players to object to the rules and have them changed.

The rules could use a bit of refinement, but that's all and it is up to Unixmad really, it is after all his forum, "not ours" contrary to popular belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel

That's why this thread will be closed/deleted and we'll both probably recieve infractions.

You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

pooper200000 · #15 11-10-2006, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

The support center is exactly that, for support, hence topics being closed with people asking for support that can not be given by just a regular player.
Some issues are, especially those that are less personal such as http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=69918
I guess a FAQ could be stickied somewhere (although there are far too many stickies already) with all the common questions posted (to then be closed) so it's easier, rather then routing through the rules to see if you've got grounds for posting, or going through the process of creating a support ticket.
If you would like to know why your post/thread has been deleted, PM either Sam or Moonie, I know I have done and they both respond, although most of the time it's pretty obvious.
I really don't see the need in having a forum which allows harassment of staff, it's not needed and it's not nice, take it elsewhere or just grow up and let it go.
The rules could use a bit of refinement, but that's all and it is up to Unixmad really, it is after all his forum, "not ours" contrary to popular belief.
You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

I have recieved an infraction and a warning. Threads on forums can also be viewed by everyone which is almost always fine unless its an account issue. I have done this multiple times and have recieved no response while it has been about 15 to 25 posts at a time still no response. I don't have your skills with being able to tell whats wrong. Many people can't let things go and thats a way to let it all out. That could be the elsewhere. Unixmad is a kind minded person who I believe could allow some of this. I find it quite challenging to avoid spam. I also disapprove of the staff goading you into allowing them to ban you.

Mykel · #16 11-10-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

It's very easy to avoid. But why should we avoid it if we disagree with it? Do you always just accept authority for the sole reasoning that it is authority? If you do, that's a terrible way to live.

Rufus · #17 11-10-2006, 02:17 AM

Pooper - Fix your post please, I have no idea what you're referring to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel

It's very easy to avoid. But why should we avoid it if we disagree with it?

I have disagreed with a lot of actions by the moderators, and have told them, but I haven't done it in such a way it goes against the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel

Do you always just accept authority for the sole reasoning that it is authority? If you do, that's a terrible way to live.

No I don't at all, I respect what people's jobs are and what they've been asked to do.

Crono · #18 11-10-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus

You know, I myself have never recieved a single "infraction" and I'm sure there's a lot more others who haven't either, it's not that hard to avoid.

I'm not really allowed to discuss this but let's just say mine were stupid and soley based on the moderator's judgement rather than using common sense they took a worst case definition for everything.

excaliber7388 · #19 11-10-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerami

I'm not really allowed to discuss this but let's just say mine were stupid and soley based on the moderator's judgement rather than using common sense they took a worst case definition for everything.

Yo tambien

Minoc · #20 11-10-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Don't answer with spam give a complete answer or not at all minoc. Not all users prefer to write in paragraphs and many would find that quite pointless such as I.

Paragraphs make it easier to read. Is hitting ENTER a couple of times too hard?

excaliber7388 · #21 11-10-2006, 01:44 AM

This idea is brilliant!
Why didn't someone higher up think of this first?!?!
Supernanny, u rock

pooper200000 · #22 11-10-2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

This idea is brilliant!
Why didn't someone higher up think of this first?!?!
Supernanny, u rock

thanks but post what you like and why.

excaliber7388 · #23 11-10-2006, 02:36 AM

It would be cool if players could 'elect' fellow players for a moderator position.
Of course, someone would have to approve it. It just feels like there's no one up there supporting the players...the actual customers.
Also, they won't ever take customer complaints seriously, not until they're close to bankruptcy. =(

pooper200000 · #24 11-10-2006, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

It would be cool if players could 'elect' fellow players for a moderator position.
Of course, someone would have to approve it. It just feels like there's no one up there supporting the players...the actual customers.
Also, they won't ever take customer complaints seriously, not until they're close to bankruptcy. =(

Who could set it up? We need to work this out with the staff's help otherwise nothing will get done.

ryu_no_bishie · #25 11-10-2006, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center? I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community? Then if a player has an objection it can be dealt with while also allowing the help of peers and or staff and while this happened it could help prevent this issue from happening yet again? Yet another question I ask in my complete ignorance of issues. useless crap about a dumb idea for a court system and retarded suggestions that players should be allowed to bash staff when they arent allowed to bash anyone, so deleted for convienience .

i pretty much only agree with the top part of the post. staff simply delete topics that go against them simply because they want to burry all evidence that suggests they arent doing their job or abusing power, its very very pathetic, and i expect MUCH better from anyone with a coloured username. but if the high admins like stefan and unix dont care, then theres nothing to be done, at least, nothing that can be done without getting banned.

basicly if your so unhappy with the mods and admins here i suggest you leave graal, and create a website that explains how/why graal isnt worthy of anyones visit. because with currupt staff at every turn and high mods who dont give a damn i dont see any major changes in the future, so that leaves the legal option of boycotting graal.

pooper200000 · #26 11-10-2006, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryu_no_bishie

i pretty much only agree with the top part of the post. staff simply delete topics that go against them simply because they want to burry all evidence that suggests they arent doing their job or abusing power, its very very pathetic, and i expect MUCH better from anyone with a coloured username. but if the high admins like stefan and unix dont care, then theres nothing to be done, at least, nothing that can be done without getting banned.

basicly if your so unhappy with the mods and admins here i suggest you leave graal, and create a website that explains how/why graal isnt worthy of anyones visit. because with currupt staff at every turn and high mods who dont give a damn i dont see any major changes in the future, so that leaves the legal option of boycotting graal.

Im not unhappy yet. I am angered but not unhappy. I am addicted to this game. If I got banned on zone or someplace I would quit but otherwise I'm here for the long run and if I am I would like for it to be somewhat comfortable. Thus this thread

excaliber7388 · #27 11-10-2006, 03:02 AM

But...nothing will get done
I've pretty much given up, if they want to **** their game up like this, let them.
I'll ride this train till the end of the line.

Tyhm · #28 11-10-2006, 03:56 AM

I have no idea what's going on here.

But I do have some general advice regarding administration - not targetted at anyone in particular, just a snippet from the olde staff charter that, to my knowledge, was never properly revoked...nor transferred off the Original Classic, so it's in a twilight zone, but I digress.

In the event of a corruption allegation, the accused administrator will be asked to explain their actions to a neutral tribunal, one which meets the approval of both parties. It will be generally accepted that this tribunal will not mislead the player in question, and so if the tribunal finds the administrator acted with good reason their judgement will stand, without the player in question necessarily learning the reasons behind it.

Wordy, and there was more about punishment for abusing the appelate court and limitations on how often an administrator could be put on the blocks, but it meant that in cases where "Why was my stuffs deleted?!?", the evidence would be reviewed by Someone and an explanation rendered.

The trouble, of course, was always Neutral Tribunals. Do you trust me to sit in judgement of Darlene? Does she? If I found her guilty, would anything happen? Would Ibonic work? Stefan and Unixmad certainly have the power, but do you trust them to fairly review your case? Do they have the time?
Who watches the watchmen?

We actually had judges once. Head19, I believe, same one used as Default RC. Horrible, ask Galen.

HoudiniMan · #29 11-10-2006, 10:47 AM

I was asked to comment on this, I didn't take the time to read it because I have a feeling it's about moderating procedures. These are handed down by unixmad, and unless he changes his mind, will not change.

If you feel your thread was deleted erroneously, forum PM a mod and ask if you can recreate it. I see many threads closed for simply going off track, and if you have a valid topic, you may be able to reopen it.

pooper200000 · #30 11-10-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I was asked to comment on this, I didn't take the time to read it because I have a feeling it's about moderating procedures. These are handed down by unixmad, and unless he changes his mind, will not change.

If you feel your thread was deleted erroneously, forum PM a mod and ask if you can recreate it. I see many threads closed for simply going off track, and if you have a valid topic, you may be able to reopen it.

Generally the mods will simply say that the thread was a fire fight and recreating it would be illegal. I only have one word to say "comprimise"

Crono · #31 11-10-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

"comprimise"

And I also have one word. compromise

pooper200000 · #32 11-11-2006, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerami

And I also have one word. compromise

me them both or brocoli?

Rufus · #33 11-11-2006, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

These forums are not a place for complains about staff or how Graal is run. If you have serious suggestions for making things better then you can let us know them. If you don't want to improve Graal or play Graal then you don't need to do that, but don't try to destroy the community because you are mad of some people. We have to change structures from time to time to make things better working.

Tyrial · #34 11-16-2006, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000

Why are threads continually deleted so the issue can be taken to the control I means support center? I am quite intested as to why since wouldn't placing all evidence of everything said be beneficial to the Graal community? Then if a player has an objection it can be dealt with while also allowing the help of peers and or staff and while this happened it could help prevent this issue from happening yet again? Yet another question I ask in my complete ignorance of issues. Would it be possible to create a court system in the forums where the players have authority or something of or in that forum? I believes that if they were to have the players report a post if they believe it is spam and 5 persons were to report a post it would be deleted if there reasons all agreed. Moderators then would simply be the "cops" of the forums who would simply deal with deleting the suggested posts and closing threads. Yet another of this one's unintelligent questions must not continue. Would it be allowable for the players to simply object to infractions or simply want to know the full reason for the moderators deleteion of their threads/posts? I would like to know how a little over 400 of my 1700 posts are considered spam. I have gone back and counted how many posts I would have if they were not deleted. Most importantly could they allow a thread /and or forums that is moderated by a player such as Sklyd or another player who is respected and on much such as Gerami/cronosaur who can moderate the forums the moderators are not allowed to view. I believe that many enjoy being able to take their anger out on staff without the staff's knowledge. The forum would only be moderated to remove links. There is nothing wrong with the staff being made fun of and the players could make fun of them so they would not personally attack them anywhere else. Many moderators would be protected or made fun of by players and it would relieve the players greatly. Lastly would it be possible for the players to object to the rules and have them changed. Any help on this including reading this post would be appreciated!

The stupid,
Supernanny

By the love of the and the only God, please.. dude.. PLEASE.. use your enter button!!!

Crono · #35 11-16-2006, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrial

By the love of the and the only God, please.. dude.. PLEASE.. use your enter button!!!

no theres like 5000 gods man didnt you know?

Tyrial · #36 11-16-2006, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerami

no theres like 5000 gods man didnt you know?

Really? :O ... naa.. name them!

Crono · #37 11-16-2006, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrial

Really? :O ... naa.. name them!

:X!

YEAH SO ABOUT PLAYERS OBJECTING.......yeah....voic ur opinionz boys dun let teh mods stop u...

i am nt responsbl 4 any bans dat taek plajs loll

Tyhm · #38 11-16-2006, 09:02 AM

Hey, in the book I read it said there's only one God, and thou shalt hold no other gods holier than His noodly appendage.

But I digress:
Bans should be discussed, but not in public. Admins should be reviewed, but again, not in public. It shakes public confidence if every other day, Darlene and Sam have to defend themselves against accusations of corruption in front of everyone.

This is why I want a tree structure for the Support Center - you get banned, you can take it up with their immediate superiors, and so forth until you actually NEED Unixmad to step in. And there should be at least one admin between Person Banning You and Unixmad the Very Busy...otherwise nothing ever gets done.

ryu_no_bishie · #39 11-16-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Hey, in the book I read it said there's only one God, and thou shalt hold no other gods holier than His noodly appendage.

But I digress:
Bans should be discussed, but not in public. Admins should be reviewed, but again, not in public. It shakes public confidence if every other day, Darlene and Sam have to defend themselves against accusations of corruption in front of everyone.

This is why I want a tree structure for the Support Center - you get banned, you can take it up with their immediate superiors, and so forth until you actually NEED Unixmad to step in. And there should be at least one admin between Person Banning You and Unixmad the Very Busy...otherwise nothing ever gets done.

well thats never going to happen unless a large enough group of players demands it. graal is a very niche MMORPG not very large at all, not many people play it. i could list the reasons why, but i dont feel i can do so with out bashing every MMO on the internet.

the only thing that needs to be said about god is, not in this topic.

Crono · #40 11-16-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyhm

This is why I want a tree structure for the Support Center - you get banned, you can take it up with their immediate superiors, and so forth until you actually NEED Unixmad to step in. And there should be at least one admin between Person Banning You and Unixmad the Very Busy...otherwise nothing ever gets done.

Hehe, I take it up with the support center and Sam and Moonie double team me.