Scam complaints accumulate

[Sam]

Contrary to my knowledge from last year I know that scamming is not legal.
Because of the accumulation of the scams we need to take radical measures against it.

That doesn't mean you dont need to take care of your stuff!

1. Don't give valuable items to someone else and let him "test and hold" it!

2. Only trade on tables so there is a log to prove it.

3. If you still want to "lend" someone else your stuff, do it only for any other valuable stuff, you would accept to keep it in the case you dont get back your stuff.

Unless all this as a case arises I will ban player that permanent scam and betray others!

We don't accept people that disturb others fun by scamming, harassing insulting and so on.

[Lyndzey]

How long are you banning them for?

Considering they pay $40 to play Kingdoms, I don't believe they should be banned permanently. I don't think bans should last longer than a day.

And how exactly are people scammed? We have trading tables.

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Lyndzey

How long are you banning them for?

Considering they pay $40 to play Kingdoms, I don't believe they should be banned permanently. I don't think bans should last longer than a day.

And Zone... one day?
"You've been very bad, here's a lolli-pop"

Oi.

Originally Posted by protagonist

Then, there would be nothing to scam, and then I'd play it. Alot of items are ill-gotten (either by staff, scamming, whatever).

Yea, because nothing like that would ever happen again, right?

But I agree, format c!

[Lyndzey]

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

And Zone... one day?
"You've been very bad, here's a lolli-pop"

So how long do you think they should be banned?

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Lyndzey

So how long do you think they should be banned?

A week, half a week - Mostly depends if they're a repeat offender or not.

Ofcourse you don't want it to be long enough for the player to lose interest in Graal - just long enough for them to suffer and regret their actions... and maybe through their regret they'll learn to resist the urge to repeat their actions

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Lyndzey

Considering they pay $40 to play Kingdoms, I don't believe they should be banned permanently. I don't think bans should last longer than a day

It's all about cost vs benefit. If a person is discouraging others from playing, he may be outweighing the $40 he contributed.

Originally Posted by Gambet

What are you talking about? Scamming is legal

Not according to Sam.

GK has many ways to prevent scamming. How do people get scammed? They loan their items to other and/or they trade via dropping items on the floor

Yeah, it's stupid. But since when was stupidity an offense? Protecting customers against the consequences of their foolish actions makes them happier and more likely to upgrade again. Why shouldn't we do it?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Not according to Sam.

Since when did Sam make the rules?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yeah, it's stupid. But since when was stupidity an offense? Protecting customers against the consequences of their foolish actions makes them happier and more likely to upgrade again. Why shouldn't we do it?

So you're saying we should encourage players to be completely stupid and careless and not teach them that they should learn some responsibility on what they do with their items? You do know that this will most likely lead to players saying they were scammed by others, when they werent, and then a huge ordeal will be brought about. Punishing scammers will only lead to more problems. Players should learn to be responsible on what they wish to do with their items, and well, if they were foolish enough to lend out their items for no collateral, well, then that's their fault.

I understand that it would be the players happier, but they shouldn't be lending out their items anyways.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Since when did Sam make the rules?

Since he was hired, I imagine. There doesn't seem to be anybody else doing it.

So you're saying we should encourage players to be completely stupid and careless

No. In fact I did not say anything like that.

You do know that this will most likely lead to players saying they were scammed by others, when they werent

Obviously we only intervene when there is evidence.

I understand that it would be the players happier, but they shouldn't be lending out their items anyways.

Uh? So what are your criteria for identifying a good administrative action?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Since he was hired, I imagine. There doesn't seem to be anybody else doing it.

Or maybe Sam just doesn't know all of the rules? Because scamming has always been legal. Or, maybe he's trying to change the rules, and maybe that could be a problem?

Sure, we don't see anyone else doing it, but does that mean that just because he's coming up with a bunch of rules that they would work out or that they are just in any way?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Obviously we only intervene when there is evidence.

I take it you have not played much of graal lately. If so, you'd know that some players just play to make the game for others a living hell. Players will always abuse systems and find loop holes around things. If scammers were punished for scamming, I could easily accuse you of scamming me, even if you didn't, and I would end up gaining a free item. I mean, if it's going to be nearly impossible to actually get your items back because of someone ACTUALLY scamming you, then what's the point? I mean, there is not many ways to prove that you were scammed anyways.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Uh? So what are your criteria for identifying a good administrative action?

Why should the administration act upon scammers anyways? As far as I'm concerned, scamming could be considered an act of role playing. Is that not what GK was designed for....Role Playing? I mean, there is always the 'thief' class that could try to scam players and they would be role playing on their character. You can't punish someone for scamming. THERE ARE ALREADY MANY WAYS TO PREVENT SCAMMING, and if you are too foolish to prevent yourself from being scammed, well, then tough luck. There are a lot of players on GK that have never been scammed before, and that's because they are smart and they don't loan their items to anyone, and they use the trade tables to trade. I mean, it's practically common sense on what you should do to NOT be at risk of being scammed.

[protagonist]

You could always reset kingdoms. Then, there would be nothing to scam, and then I'd play it. Alot of items are ill-gotten (either by staff, scamming, whatever).

[Lyndzey]

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

Unless all this as a case arises I will ban player that permanent scam and betray others!

I thought that Sam might have misplaced the word permanent; permanent scam doesn't make sense, so I figured he meant permanent ban. I think a permanent ban is way too severe for a scammer.

I think half a week would work good. I just remember that I once banned someone for scamming for 12 hours, and they went crazy ;o

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Lyndzey

I thought that Sam might have misplaced the word permanent; permanent scam doesn't make sense, so I figured he meant permanent ban. I think a permanent ban is way too severe for a scammer.

I think half a week would work good. I just remember that I once banned someone for scamming for 12 hours, and they went crazy ;o

Different strokes for different folks; no pun intended.

[Gambet]

What are you talking about? Scamming is legal. GK has many ways to prevent scamming. How do people get scammed? They loan their items to other and/or they trade via dropping items on the floor. Don't be stupid, don't loan anyone your items, and don't be lazy, use the trade tables. People that get scammed, get scammed because of something stupid/foolish that THEY did, and has nothing to do with the server. Banning someone for scamming is just stupid.

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Gambet

What are you talking about? Scamming is legal. GK has many ways to prevent scamming. How do people get scammed? They loan their items to other and/or they trade via dropping items on the floor. Don't be stupid, don't loan anyone your items, and don't be lazy, use the trade tables. People that get scammed, get scammed because of something stupid/foolish that THEY did, and has nothing to do with the server. Banning someone for scamming is just stupid.

Personally, punishment for scamming isn't because they took items - but the fact they were as cruel as to take items from others.

[Sam]

Rules of conduct:

...This 'caveat emptor' approach does not mean Scamming is legal, only that it is difficult to prove.....

Some people make it to their main issue to scam and sometimes also to sell the items for USD, we dont accept it to ruin the game by such acting "players".

I am still wondering that you Gambet don't know the rules, I thought you are a kind of staff on Zone?

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

I am still wondering that you Gambet don't know the rules, I thought you are a kind of staff on Zone?

Gambet isn't that bad, he's just a little confused and a bit of a newb at this.

[GoZelda]

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

Rules of conduct:

...This 'caveat emptor' approach does not mean Scamming is legal, only that it is difficult to prove.....

Way to place it out of context:

"If Graal Police witness a scam directly they may punish the offending player."

And you are not Graal Police either.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by GoZelda

Way to place it out of context:

"If Graal Police witness a scam directly they may punish the offending player."

And you are not Graal Police either.

You are so clever. You dont play the game, but you think you know all.
To let you know: I am beside Björn the highest staff on GK, with Admin rights, not only EM Admin. And we do not have aspecial GP on GK. Play the game and you maybe don't fail with your comments in the future.

[GoZelda]

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

Play the game and you maybe don't fail with your comments in the future.

No sir, you failed with your comments.

First off, you're slow. Do you honestly think I ment that Graal Police comment seriously?

Second off, you did not adress my main point. You can only punish a player if you witness the scam directly.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

I am beside Björn the highest staff on GK, with Admin rights, not only EM Admin. And we do not have aspecial GP on GK. Play the game and you maybe don't fail with your comments in the future.

I've heard of others who play the game that your oh-so great powers are at certain moments restricted to the pub, that you suddenly can't speak English, and that you refuse to help them.

[Gambet]

Scamming has never been punishable or illegal. It's always been said to not lend your items out to anyone, and if you must, then request some collateral. The staff cannot punish people for scamming, and a good reason, is what I mentioned about role playing. All the staff can do is make more ways to prevent scamming. I thought my idea on those special trading tables where you can lend out items and after X amount of time the item(s) are automatically returned was a great idea, but I guess it wasnt noticed. Instead of trying to punish those that scam, try to develop more ways of preventing it.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Good god, man. Have you ever stopped to think about this? Here's a condensed version of your argument:

"Scamming is possibly part of somebody's character"
"Scamming is legal"
"Therefore scamming should be legal"

If we're determining whether or not scamming should be legal then the roleplaying aspects are irrelevant. But you yourself claimed that you had given a "good reason" when you cited them in opposition to Sam's ruling.

Just think. That's all I ask!

You are not quite bright.

I said scamming could be part of ones character, or class for the matter, if they chose the ways of a thief. Scamming is legal, unless this thread officially made it illegal, which I still don't see why it would/should be illegal. And where did I say therefore scamming should be legal? I don't recall ever stating that.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

I said scamming could be part of ones character, or class for the matter, if they chose the ways of a thief

How is that an argument for keeping it legal, you dolt?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

How is that an argument for keeping it legal, you dolt?

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD....RPING...ROLE PLAYING YOU "DOLT".


The thief class could be perfect for such "scamming". I mean, if you are foolish enough to allow yourself to be scammed, then so be it. Most people that are scammed usually don't get scammed anymore, since being scammed opens their darn eyes. Let the players learn from their mistake, but don't pamper them.

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Gambet

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD....RPING...ROLE PLAYING YOU "DOLT".


The thief class could be perfect for such "scamming". I mean, if you are foolish enough to allow yourself to be scammed, then so be it. Most people that are scammed usually don't get scammed anymore, since being scammed opens their darn eyes. Let the players learn from their mistake, but don't pamper them.

Does that mean we can ban non-thief scammers?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Does that mean we can ban non-thief scammers?

On the note of role playing characters, yes, I suppose so. Scamming is something a thief would do, not a barbarian or a warrior or a mage.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD....RPING...ROLE PLAYING YOU "DOLT"

YES. HOWEVER, YOU ALREADY SAID THAT THINGS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD CONSTITUTE PART OF A PERSON'S CHARACTER.

THINK

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

YES. HOWEVER, YOU ALREADY SAID THAT THINGS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD CONSTITUTE PART OF A PERSON'S CHARACTER.

THINK

No, I didn't. I said scamming could constitute as part of a persons character, thus, it should be allowed, not that it shouldn't. Heck, I still don't see any valid reasoning as to why scamming should be illegal.

[juice188]

same, you gotta read stuff thoroughly

[Butz]

I see nothing wrong with making illegal an action that directly reduces the enjoyment of other people playing the game.
Gambet makes an argument for roleplaying a thief?
Thieves get caught. Thieves get punished. Just because you're a thief doesn't mean you'll get away with something.
Also, I find it rather hard to believe that someone would stand up for the right to scam, unless there's something that they personally gain from scamming being allowed. What's your story Gambet?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Butz

I see nothing wrong with making illegal an action that directly reduces the enjoyment of other people playing the game.
Gambet makes an argument for roleplaying a thief?
Thieves get caught. Thieves get punished. Just because you're a thief doesn't mean you'll get away with something.
Also, I find it rather hard to believe that someone would stand up for the right to scam, unless there's something that they personally gain from scamming being allowed. What's your story Gambet?

I don't play GK anymore, so I hope you're not trying to imply anything.

All I'm saying is, I want someone to give me valid reasoning as to why they feel scamming should be illegal. Give me your reasoning and support it, and then I will either agree or disagree and prove my points. Kai already spoke with me on AIM his reasoning, and I agree with that, but it's still not sufficient enough to make scamming illegal.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

All I'm saying is, I want someone to give me valid reasoning as to why they feel scamming should be illegal

How are we supposed to do that when you haven't told us how you identify good or bad actions?

If the objective is to increase Graal's revenue then scamming should be illegal. I think you agreed with that. But I don't know how to address the issue from your perspective because you haven't told us what your criteria are.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

How are we supposed to do that when you haven't told us how you identify good or bad actions?

If the objective is to increase Graal's revenue then scamming should be illegal. I think you agreed with that. But I don't know how to address the issue from your perspective because you haven't told us what your criteria are.

Why havn't I listed my criteria? Well, just to let you know, I'm completely against scammers. I don't like them. But, I'm trying to look at this new rule from both sides, which is why I'm not trying to be persuasive towards making/leaving scamming to be legal. Personally, I would love something to be done about all of the scammers, but you have to look at things from both sides. Scammers are not doing anything that can not be avoided. I mean, yes, of course they piss people off and sometimes lead them to quitting, but scammers are doing that's really wrong.

Heck, if you drop an item on the floor and I went to pick it up and took it and didn't return it, well, you'd call me a scammer. But, if you're going to blame me for "scamming" you, then you should look at it from both sides, because if someones to blame then we both should be blamed. You were careless enough to drop your items, and I just so happened to pass by when you dropped your items and I picked them up. Tough luck.

Yes, I'm completely against scamming, but just because I'm against something doesn't mean I'd deem it illegal just because I don't like it. I try to look at things from both sides before making a decision.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Why havn't I listed my criteria?

Evidently because you prefer to hide behind ambiguity.

I'm trying to look at this new rule from both sides[...]
Scammers are not doing anything that can not be avoided

Nor are sexual harassers. Nor are those that hijack accounts or delete playerworlds. Should we make these things legal too?

[xAndrewx]

I recommend a ban for a month for the scammers.
Once they're banned, they will go to the forums and
start 'dissing' the person who banned them. Leading
to a ban on the forums. People never learn.

[Malinko]

Whoa whoa whoa!

Scamming IS legal on Graal Kingdoms.

The only time when scamming is illegal is when items are obtained by bug/glitch, as in an abuse of this bug/glitch.

If you give your items to players to borrow or hold, then Graal Kingdoms is not held responsible for lost items.

[Sam]

Hmm, maybe Stefan said to Gambet: "Make new rules!"

The rules we have are not valid anymore, because Gambet made new ones.
He is the know it all person. To prove that he uses capital letters...

[Raziel]

You can't scam and call it roleplay. I mean, how do you explain a scammer logging off in roleplay terms? How do you explain the fact that the person who got scammed cannot get the item back by cutting the scammer's throat in his sleep? In real life the thief would be caught, his hands cut off, and the items returned to their rightful owner. You can't say this is part of the roleplay of a character, because it just doesn't all work.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Raziel

You can't scam and call it roleplay. I mean, how do you explain a scammer logging off in roleplay terms? How do you explain the fact that the person who got scammed cannot get the item back by cutting the scammer's throat in his sleep? In real life the thief would be caught, his hands cut off, and the items returned to their rightful owner. You can't say this is part of the roleplay of a character, because it just doesn't all work.

Says who? It's a game, so maybe the thief could get away with it. Anything can happen in a game


Kai:


I say that a person could role play as being a scammer, so you say that the same could apply for sexual harassers. Yes, that's true, but since we are arguing over whether or not scamming should be legal, that means that scamming is not illegal thus far. Currently, scamming is legal, so a player COULD role play as a scammer. Now, if it were made illegal, then I guess you would not be able to.

I'm not using it as a point to make scamming legal, because scamming is already legal. This thread is to make it illegal.


Sam:


Honestly, what in the world did you say? I didn't understand a thing.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

since we are arguing over whether or not scamming should be legal, that means that scamming is not illegal thus far

I really don't know how that logic is supposed to work. Either way, the current state is irrelevant to determining the ideal state. You are not permitted to use circular reasoning.

Currently, scamming is legal, so a player COULD role play as a scammer. Now, if it were made illegal, then I guess you would not be able to

So what's your point? If you're not trying to argue that scamming should be legal then what are you doing?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I really don't know how that logic is supposed to work. Either way, the current state is irrelevant to determining the ideal state. You are not permitted to use circular reasoning.

We are not arguing over whether scamming should be legal or illegal. We are arguing over whether scamming should be illegal, since it currently is legal. I have quite a feeling that all of our posts probably wouldn't influence the decision at all, but oh well.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So what's your point? If you're not trying to argue that scamming should be legal then what are you doing?

It already is legal. I don't like scamming, but I'm looking at things from both sides. I'm just waiting for valid reasoning as to why it should be made illegal.