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Old 12-20-2005, 08:58 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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The connectedness of dilemmas.

From what I can gather from the results in the poll thread, (http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=62769) these are the arguements I wish to make. I have written this as both an analysis, and to call attention to the things needing it the most.

The vast majority of votes casted by users of these forums were centraliazed in the categories of Kingdom Mechanics, Monsters, and Major Bugs to be fixed. I will be focusing on the former two for the sake of arguement. This is primarily aimed toward the few who can make a difference on this server, so please, hear me out on this.

Fear is a very powerful thing. It can keep people in line, and it can keep them from doing things. Fear has built on Graal Kingdoms, and it has crippled the capacity of users to play and enjoy the game as they probably should. What does this fear stem from? The best way I could summarize it is to say that it comes from the players themselves.

As has been discussed many a time, there is a severe imbalance of power on Kingdoms. It has grown over the years, and, as Schlurfy has said to me before, we cannot go back to change the past. This is very true. There have been dozens of suggestions as to what should be fixed to make the server much better, including things such as resetting, but a good question to ask is whether or not it will really solve anything. The easy answer to face would simply be "yes," but it's really not that simple. Things tend to work in cycles, as some may notice, and Kingdoms will get right back to where it is now, should a reset ever occur. That is why a few things must be fixed in order for the server's populace to undo its limitations. The things to be fixed are not bugs, but abominations that must be dealt with, come hell or high water.

The first course of action should be to fix the curve of experience, and the experience gained from enemies. After leaving kingdoms, I played on Maloria for a while. And while not the finest server out there, things have been done right as far as levels go. In Kingdoms, the experience required to gain a level goes up exponentially (Roughly speaking.) while the experience given by enemies goes down each time a new level is gained. This would be fine if there were a whole lot of enemies, but quite frankly, there aren't. However, there doesn't need to be, either. If the experience from enemies is fixed to be more static up until certain levels, it will help to even out the curve a little bit. Players should have to fight certain sets of enemies before they can gain the strength to move on to tougher ones. But, however, this is not the way things are, and a player can move onto the hardest enemies in the game if they have a mediocre weapon that has been either blessed or prepared to a decent extent. The enemies that a person fights should always be hard up until they are at a level substantially higher than that enemy is. Gods such as bile mess this up with the death effect, which can obliterate most enemies in no time. But that is another story. If enemies had their stats changed, the way they would have to be fought would make a lot more sense. Being able to take out Bomy Lords and Bigworms within about a minute or so is kind of ridiculous, considering that they are supposed to be the hardest things out there, aside from holiday monsters. If monsters were set up to be difficult, then the levels for each would look kind of like this:

Monster Name: Level (Player Equivalent)

Rabbit: 3
Battle Mushroom: 5
Battle Potato: 10
Glok: 15
Evil Bomy: 20
Heavil: 25
Skeleton: 30
Wolf: 35
T-Rex: 40
Rabbit Lord: 45
Mushroom Lord: 50
Glok Lord: 55
Evil Bomy Lord: 60
EvilHeavil: 65
Demon: 70
Cyclops: 75
Sabre-Tooth Tiger: 80
Panther: 85
Bigworm: 90

I just did those mostly in intervals of 5 to show how the experience would need to be spread out. Now, using that example, let's say that you go out to fight one of these things. If you are just starting out, you would be fighting rabbits. Eventually, you would need to start fighting battle mushrooms. The experience you're gaining from rabbits does not need to go down until you get to level 5, which is when you should be fighting battle mushrooms. This will make the enemies a whole lot tougher to fight, and you would gain a lot more experience from it. People at level 10 would have no chance of fighting things like Bomy Lords, etc. but that's just a matter of difficulty. However, a small team of level 40 - 50's probably could if they teamed up, which would encourace partying.

Now, as for experience distribution... Experience would need to be thought about very carefully. Using the table I presented, let us look at the high end of the spectrum. Let's say that the experience 'til level 90 goes like this:

Level: Required Experience

86: 100,000,000
87: 200,000,000
88: 400,000,000
89: 800,000,000
90: 1,600,000,000

Let's say you're fighting off panthers to get to level 90. Should the experience go down every level, or stay fixed 'til you're around their level? Let's imagine that panthers give about 100,000k each. You would have to kill 1000 of those to get to level 86. If the experience goes down (Like it does right now on GK.) by about, say, 20%, (80,000k each) you would have to kill 2500 to get to level 87. Doesn't sound bad? Let's look at the next level. Take it down another 20% (60,000k each) and it will take 6667 to get to level 88. And so on and so forth. Now, if the experience were to be fixed, it would take 1000 to get to 86, 2000 for 87, and 4000 for 88. That's a whole lot easier for a person to do. Now, if the person decided to take on a harder battle and fight bigworms for, say, 500,000k apiece, they would only need to kill 800 to get there. These are huge numbers, but it's just to show how difficult things can be when you have experience given going down and experience required going up.

Now, as for Kingdom Mechanics. Namely, bmode. Bmode is something very fun that can also be very hard to deal with. Since most people that are at high levels right now possess weapons of mass destruction (ones that have been blessed and prepped.) and have ungodly armor, it's no wonder why there are no more wars. Real wars and real fighting can only take place when people are actually able to fight each other. (And I don't mean with ships.) However, who really wants to when you can be killed in one hit by someone, and have very little opportunity to be at their standing? When a weapon or a person can be more powerful than another kingdom's entire member population put together, something is wrong. Most of the leveling done nowadays that conrtibutes to this is not done by legal means, and changing it to where people can get to higher levels without having to glitch or whatnot will permanently break the tremendous barrier that there seems to be between low levels and high levels. Unless you are a person devoted to leveling, the sad truth of things is that people are high levels only because they have found a cheap or illegitimate way of gaining experience. That is why seeing people at around level 50-80 is somewhat uncommon. Typically, when a person finds a cheap way to level, they use it as much as they can until the maximum level is reached. (Such as DoPV, Partying glitches, etc.) Those who don't and level legitimately usually take a long time to get there. It is a shame that this is the way things are, but it's happened already. There is not as much work involved in getting kingdoms to be more innovative as one might think. It's simply a matter of getting people more engaged in the activities their kingdom has going on, and this is a good way to go towards that. kingdom members won't even fight each other outside of dueling arenas, even if they are currently enemies, and what reason would they have? To get creamed? If a person is able to get stronger and face up to their enemies, chances are that they will. But, if there is something standing in the way, it's a lot harder for them to. If the leveling / monster system is ever fixed, the one proposal I wish to make is that when people are on tag, they are automatically forced into bmode. (kmode) If the experience has been fixed, this shouldn't be too big of an issue for people. If weapons aren't preppable and armor is not enchantable, and everyone has to stick with the basic stats of items, kingdoms will move forward while simultaneously moving back to the way it used to be - when being in a kingdom actually used to matter, and when things were a lot more fun.

I'm going to conclude here by saying only this - Stefan, and whomever else has jurisdiction of this, please take the time to actually play on the server you created and to see these issues as clearly as you can. They're there, and we wouldn't be talking about them if they weren't. The solution does not lie in crazy things such as creating new systems or resetting or whatever. I lies on merely messing with a few things that were suitable for users a few years ago, but not now. Times have changed, and so should we.
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2005, 09:39 PM
Googi Googi is offline
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How to render this proposal totally obsolete:

Kmode with fixed stats
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2005, 10:58 PM
Craigus Craigus is offline
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Make everyone the same? people have different fighting styles...Give everyone the chance to gain the high levels with new monsters and K mode will be obsolete.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:06 PM
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Draenin, I appreciate your ideas for GK! You posted some very good points . I agree that first of all should implement a k-mode with fixed stats to armour and strength but not with same energy. There have to be some differences between players. Also the resistances shouldn't be fixed. And k-mode d replaces b-mode only when on kingdom tag.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlurfy
Draenin, I appreciate your ideas for GK! You posted some very good points . I agree that first of all should implement a k-mode with fixed stats to armour and strength but not with same energy. There have to be some differences between players. Also the resistances shouldn't be fixed. And k-mode d replaces b-mode only when on kingdom tag.

There has to be a k-mode when a kingdom leader calls for it, and the stats are not all the same, different depending on ranks.

It would take a long time to set up, but it would be nice
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:18 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Rrrrrrrrgh!! I am not proposing kmode. That is not the point I was trying to make.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:24 PM
Googi Googi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damix2
different depending on ranks.
Do you seriously not see how obviously abusable this would be?
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Yes, it would be. Thumbs down.

My emphasis is more on fixing the curve of experience.
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi
Do you seriously not see how obviously abusable this would be?

Its very easy to see, thats why I said it would take a long time to implement, a way would have to be devised to prevent it.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:03 AM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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You guys just keep getting farther and farther out there.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:47 AM
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The problem with kingdom battles is there is the group of people that can break high AC and the group that can't thats the MAIN problem. Open the levels to everyone.
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:47 AM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Precisely. Well said, Craig.
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Old 12-21-2005, 04:52 PM
OasaTor_PK OasaTor_PK is offline
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Reset the levels, fix the leveling bug, remove the ac stat, and base it off armor. Make leveling fun, KMODE so I can rape little nubbies, more enemies, christmas pls.
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Old 12-21-2005, 05:08 PM
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Well the plan for the round-based battling is following:
The player chooses what type of fight mode he/she prefers, by using some simple menu - RP fight (based on stats of the weapons, spells and armour), Sparring (stats of weapons and such still have influence but much less, it's possible for a level 10 to kill a level 100), mini-games (metris, zblast, breakout, kart race, etc.) or NONE which means you don't want to fight against other players.
If two people meet who have the same fight mode then the battle starts, they are warped to a special place. For kingdoms wars the king/queen can choose the fight mode for their whole kingdom.
If you fight against a monster or quest npc then the npc is choosing the fight mode - small bomys just require realtime fight (no warping either), bosses and more powerful monsters will use RP mode, some quest npcs might use mini-games.
Also this system will use parties and kingdom tags, so you do RP fights and sparring with group vs group.
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Old 12-21-2005, 05:58 PM
OasaTor_PK OasaTor_PK is offline
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Stefan, Im really excited. When will this be implemented?
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:46 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Oh, so now we plan for failure?

That system goes nowhere if all of the complications are not fixed beforehand. I don't care how neat it sounds.
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Old 12-21-2005, 09:21 PM
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Oasa, You have a fantastic idea of reseting the levels and fixing the "bugs", but Draenin, I have been waiting so long for someone to take the time to write out all of what you said yesterday, I agree 110%, Things should definately be fixed, and there should be a more selection of bomies and ways of getting more experience from them, perhaps you can event impliment new skills to make GK more fun, I love your ideas, even recolors of some of the bomies and making them a higher level would be fantastic! I hope so bad that this is considered to the extreme, Thank you draenin for bringing all of this up to the table.
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Old 12-21-2005, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OasaTor_PK
Reset the levels, fix the leveling bug, remove the ac stat, and base it off armor. Make leveling fun, KMODE so I can rape little nubbies, more enemies, christmas pls.

If you're going to reset the levels, then you should reset items also
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Old 12-21-2005, 10:34 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Resetting isn't going to solve all our problems.
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Old 12-21-2005, 10:45 PM
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I don't see how any of it can be completely fixed in the current state honestly.

You'd have to reset, restructure and retool.
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Old 12-21-2005, 10:53 PM
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Resetting, in most players' opinion, is Kingdoms' apocalypse. Restructuring would be one of the more important parts, though.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draenin
Resetting, in most players' opinion, is Kingdoms' apocalypse. Restructuring would be one of the more important parts, though.
Yeah, ok. But when you mean restructure do you mean knocking down current levels to what the equivalents would be in a new system and such? Or knocking down improved weapons and armor?
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:10 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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What I mean is changing the way enemies are right now so that the level barrier might dissipate. And if not, then the next course of action would probably be to mess with items and whatnot. There's a handful of people that want GK to stay the way it is, and a whole ton of others that want a reset, but that isn't going to be the solution if certain things stay the same.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draenin
What I mean is changing the way enemies are right now so that the level barrier might dissipate. And if not, then the next course of action would probably be to mess with items and whatnot. There's a handful of people that want GK to stay the way it is, and a whole ton of others that want a reset, but that isn't going to be the solution if certain things stay the same.
Ok, I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. So you change the enemies, just the enemies, so those who leveled up the old way would still stay as is correct?
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Old 12-22-2005, 12:56 AM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Pretty much, yeah. There's still going to be the issue of weapon and armor improvement, but that could be fooled with later, or it may not even be a problem at all. Who knows?
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Old 12-22-2005, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damix2
If you're going to reset the levels, then you should reset items also
No, not reset items. People payed real money, and do you know the outburst that would cost? Bring all items down to +0.
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Old 12-22-2005, 02:20 AM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OasaTor_PK
Bring all items down to +0.
That's what I meant by adjusting the items. Basically getting rid of Enchanting Armor and Prepping weapons, so that the only thing that matters is what the weapon has to begin with. There'd be no use for prepping weapons if a person's armor couldn't skyrocket.
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Old 12-22-2005, 02:42 AM
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Resetting weapons and armour to +0 i agree is the key here. It would also expand the amount of items and weapons people would use based on style rather then strength. Since the differences between weapons and armour would be so little, less people would be using the PMoP+12/FID prepped ogma+9/FHoM+12 combo that EVERYONE uses. Might spice up the game a bit is what I mean (and make adding new content such as armours, weapons, shields, and helmets more useful as people will actually USE them)
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Old 12-22-2005, 02:59 AM
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Asking for more content (in terms of items) is not really such a wise idea right now, I think.
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Old 12-22-2005, 03:58 AM
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There needs to be a dedication to revamping the system GK is based on. As it is now, there's far too many flaws in it to expect a fair played experiance. Based on the suggestions of Draenin, I think it could be possible to introduce a deeper more colorful array of monsters, as well as a re-worked EXP table that doesn't render the same 1-sided 'impossible to level without a glitch' view to every player.

Let's face it, maps are a bad idea. They give 100k to a level 40, and they cost 2k-3k plat for decent ones? Depending on the idea of 'endless grind' or 'dedication to the game', you could point out cons and pros of the difficulty of leveling; had their been no abuseable bugs or ingress corruption. But when a world is left to freeform navigate and evolve, especially one as flawed as GK, we come to a turning point where things are so pointless that the 'fear' of GK becomes it's weak point; whereas for the ones invoking fear it is joyous.

Balancing EXP levels, EXP from monsters, and content update would be your most important issues; while K-Mode / Kingdom Wars are also a problem, you can isolate the MAIN problem of wars by balancing EXP to a fair state rather then enforcing a 'fair' battling mode that makes hard work and dedication obsolete.

That's all I can say, I'll edit and stuff.
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OasaTor_PK
No, not reset items. People payed real money, and do you know the outburst that would cost? Bring all items down to +0.

Illigally they payed real money.

You don't just get what you want Oasa, I spent all my time leveling instead of getting items, someone else spends all there time getting items instead of leveling.

Why should I be punished. Its both or none, stop being selfish.
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:22 AM
Zero Hour Zero Hour is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damix2
Illigally they payed real money.

You don't just get what you want Oasa, I spent all my time leveling instead of getting items, someone else spends all there time getting items instead of leveling.

Why should I be punished. Its both or none, stop being selfish.
Or we could ignore how hard we worked, and say, "Yes! Please reset with the promise to introduce new content and increase game play!".

But that's just my opinion, because we all know I didn't work for any of my items.
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:28 AM
Damix2 Damix2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Hour
Or we could ignore how hard we worked, and say, "Yes! Please reset with the promise to introduce new content and increase game play!".

But that's just my opinion, because we all know I didn't work for any of my items.

I have no problem with a complete reset, I just don't see it fair to reset one thing and not the other.
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Old 12-22-2005, 10:20 AM
CidNight1142 CidNight1142 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draenin
Asking for more content (in terms of items) is not really such a wise idea right now, I think.
I didnt necessarily mean that we should add more items as of now, it just would increase the popularity of less used items now, and eventually might lead to the call for more content with a more...reasonable purpose. As of right now, the content for making yourself look different from everyone else is limited at best. People specifically buy old miths so that they can glitch them to be invisible and make them sleeveless and whatnot. People are desperate to get away from the norm. Also, check other threads such as rickys which suggests that bracers be visible on the character (a tough to attain goal, considering bracers in general are quite rare.) and someone elses (I can't remember who's exactly) who suggested the addition of cloaks or capes, which would be more attainable and simply for aesthetics. These are really great ideas in my opinion.

-edit-
Bosh's cape idea
Ricky's bracer idea
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Old 12-22-2005, 01:45 PM
GoZelda GoZelda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan
Well the plan for the round-based battling is following:
The player chooses what type of fight mode he/she prefers, by using some simple menu - RP fight (based on stats of the weapons, spells and armour), Sparring (stats of weapons and such still have influence but much less, it's possible for a level 10 to kill a level 100), mini-games (metris, zblast, breakout, kart race, etc.) or NONE which means you don't want to fight against other players.
If two people meet who have the same fight mode then the battle starts, they are warped to a special place. For kingdoms wars the king/queen can choose the fight mode for their whole kingdom.
If you fight against a monster or quest npc then the npc is choosing the fight mode - small bomys just require realtime fight (no warping either), bosses and more powerful monsters will use RP mode, some quest npcs might use mini-games.
Also this system will use parties and kingdom tags, so you do RP fights and sparring with group vs group.
Does this mean kingdom wars can be fought with mini-games?
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Old 12-23-2005, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoZelda
Does this mean kingdom wars can be fought with mini-games?
Yes Although we are also working on other stuff, like the ShipWars event.
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Old 12-23-2005, 07:45 PM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan
Yes Although we are also working on other stuff, like the ShipWars event.
So you're not working on a solution to what I mentioned, then? Also, are you avoiding what I am trying to address?

Last edited by Draenin; 12-23-2005 at 07:59 PM..
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:47 PM
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Draenin, at least he's doing something on GK that's an update that players can notice!

Usually it's "Stefans on.. here comes another laggy update".
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Old 12-24-2005, 04:54 AM
Draenin Draenin is offline
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You think people wouldn't notice the change in levels on monsters, or the experience gained from each?
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:40 PM
Stevsen Stevsen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draenin
You think people wouldn't notice the change in levels on monsters, or the experience gained from each?
I agree, and it does really seem that staff are avoiding the major issues of the game and just adds new content.

The only changes i have expirienced since i played graal in 2002, is the addition of horses, maps, and some spells missing GFX has it now. On three years they have fixed.. Almost nothing?

New content is not enough and shouldn't be worked on at this moment, if you ask me.
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