Multi-Layer Levels

[oinknessx]

This is an idea I have had for a long time.

Right now the levels are flat. I had an idea so that you could build three levels in one, however the middle level is the flat one, there is a level above that where you can put stuff that would usually be above the player (bridges, house roofs, etc) that the player would walk under, BUT if the player entered the top layer (by stairs?) then he could walk on the bridge and also maybe on roofs.

There would also be another layer below the main level, like if someone was going to make an underground cave or something. It would be useful because, like on GK, the underground dungeons would be in the same level as the main overworld.. And the houses would be on the upper level.. So it would actually be VERY useful but the filesize on levels might get a little bigger, but that's ok (since it would actually be like having more than one level)

It's a great idea, what do you think? That will atleast make it easier to do things like having a roofed entrance, like castle bridges and stuff going from pillar to pillar that you can walk on and walk under!

[Ajira]

I like it, but I doubt it will happen.

[Hiro]

Sounds like something Kingdoms would have, or Graal3D.

[Curt1zzle]

Interesting concept.

Similar to the "Sims" when you click on what floor you want to build on when in construction mode?

I like it.

[oinknessx]

Originally Posted by Curt1zzle

Interesting concept.

Similar to the "Sims" when you click on what floor you want to build on when in construction mode?

I like it.

Yeah yeah, something like that! Except that it would have different layers of Graal tiles... And yes, it probably will never be done, but I can think of a handful of things that they could do to fix up the graal stuff.... And they could make some changes that would attract players. >.>

[falco10291029]

Yes it would be good, make things easier.

[calani]

Hm, I could see having a two-layer level instead of a three.
I've seen it on a old old game called "bugs" or "bugworld": the level was 64x64 I think, and tile-based, but two layered. The lower layer was the ground tiles.. you could walk over these, no matter what tiles they were (besides lava and water, which you'd 'swim' in.. the game didn't have swimming), and the second layer was for walls and objects such as health and ammo. What was really neat about it was that not all tiles were completely opaque, such as the rune tiles. These blocked player movement and were small glowing symbol-like images with the rest of the tile transparent, so you could put them on a wall tile to make it look like a wall with a rune on it. Also, since there are two layers, you can put wall tiles on the bottom to make it so you can walk over them, thus creating hidden paths for the player to walk over.
I could see adding a third layer, too, that would be drawn over the player, but that isn't really necessary, though it would be fun

Leveling on that game was fun you had 128 tiles total, but with two layers, you had a ton of choices. 2^14th to be exact

I know this is rather different from your idea of multi-level where each layer is a separate level, but I think it would rather come in handy, and wouldn't be much of a change from the current system, and would be a hit with the levelers out there.

[oinknessx]

Well yeah, but the point of the third layer was to have the stuff that went over players so that people could use it instead of making special gifs or something, like for bridges you could walk on or swim under, maybe even houses with the doorways inside so you would walk under it instead of those annoying warps.

[jake13jake]

If I only had a quarter for every time this was suggested.
The idea is good, but I don't think anyone's up for it. I think 2-layer levels (upstairs/downstairs) would be good at the least.

[calani]

I'm personally game for the double-layer tileset... I loved that. You could merge any two tiles to make a new one, or keep the original. Plus, in the merger, either tile could be on top, thus doubling the number of possible combinations... (x+1)^2

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

If I only had a quarter for every time this was suggested.
The idea is good, but I don't think anyone's up for it. I think 2-layer levels (upstairs/downstairs) would be good at the least.

You know this could be VERY easily scripted instead of implementing two layers of tileset, if you had some way of cutting parts of non-board images out of the level. Then all you'd have to do is add a floor=# string to the player, and if the floors weren't the same for two different players, they couldn't dish damage to eachother using swords or something. This would be really nice to have. I know I made an invisibility gani (has no images) for Classic for players travelling under a bridge or segment of land. It still shows the nickname of the player, though, because the level board always draws under things.

Now that I think about it, it could be more complex to cut out parts of showimgs unless you rescript nick names, etc.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

Now that I think about it, it could be more complex to cut out parts of showimgs unless you rescript nick names.

(only thing that makes it hard, if you want to use default-style, is that rgb isn't as accessible as x,y, etc.)

you know what i realized just now? It would be more effective to script something like this if there were changeimgpart for showanis. Having changeimgpart for showanis would also make it easier to script mirrors. Well, not easier, just expand the goodness of what a good mirror script might be.

[calani]

<3 for mirrors!

[oinknessx]

The point of the idea wasn't to make it a lot of scripting, it was to make it easier to people to make levels, wether they're new to it or have been doing it for a long time.. Usually lats can't script, so that probably wouldn't work. The 3 layer level thing would work perfectly..

[calani]

True enough, most LATs can't script.
Not sure about the player being able to be on any of the three levels, but maybe. I can see it working with a bridge and such, as how could someone on the ground swinging a sword hit someone on a bridge? problem, though: there would be no fluid movement between the different levels. And, in order to fix that, you'd need to make the entire level 3d, and then why not just make a graal3d playerworld?

I think sticking with the two layers for tiles would be a wiser move.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by calani

True enough, most LATs can't script.

So you just want it because you're lazy? That will never happen. You should ask somebody to help you script such a thing if you have no idea.

[Malinko]

I think you missed the point.

[calani]

You missed the point, dear.
This is supposed to be an improvement for levels so that LATs can have more fun with them and make them look better, not as a project that can already be done by scripting it.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by calani

You missed the point, dear.
This is supposed to be an improvement for levels so that LATs can have more fun with them and make them look better, not as a project that can already be done by scripting it.

yes, actually, I think that board layers, but only with NPC calls for visibility, should be done to avoid people from making NPC images out of preexistent tiles.

[Admins]

Multiple tile layers are planned to be added to one of the next Graal versions. If a players goes below the second or third tile layer it could display the tiles partially transparent.
The tile layers still require some small scripting though, for specifying at which height the layers are (z) and to put the player at different z when going on the stairs.
For editing the additional tile layers we will need to finish the online level editor. Good is that the .nw format already supports multiple layers.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Multiple tile layers are planned to be added to one of the next Graal versions. If a players goes below the second or third tile layer it could display the tiles partially transparent.
The tile layers still require some small scripting though, for specifying at which height the layers are (z) and to put the player at different z when going on the stairs.
For editing the additional tile layers we will need to finish the online level editor. Good is that the .nw format already supports multiple layers.

So, items will only be able to interact with eachother at the same Z value, right?

Stefan, there is another factor affecting what could happen with Z values, and that's jumping from ledges. It isn't quite as easy to deal with as stairs.

Also, right now I'm thinking about stairs, and I'm thinking that might want to use onPlayertouchsme() to a certain degree. This is an entirely different issue, but how is it called?

I would think when the player area and the objects area first interlap, also, maybe when the player abutts the object in the direction the player is travelling while the player is travelling, but it doesn't seem that it's like that at all.

It would be very nice to have an on npc-player overlap function. It would make scripting baddies so much easier.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Multiple tile layers are planned to be added to one of the next Graal versions. If a players goes below the second or third tile layer it could display the tiles partially transparent.
The tile layers still require some small scripting though, for specifying at which height the layers are (z) and to put the player at different z when going on the stairs.
For editing the additional tile layers we will need to finish the online level editor. Good is that the .nw format already supports multiple layers.

You know what else I just realized? it might be good to have options for tile layers that you can destroy/recreate them, make them transparent/translucent(degree)/opaque. Maybe merge one on top of another tileset and then unmerge them. I just came to this realization because of different uses I've seen/used of images from the tileset. An opening/closing wall, the top of a table or back of a chair that draw over the player, and also a doorway that you pass under. There's a lot like that in the Zelda game, too, except the tiles in Zelda were predefined to draw over the player in the doorway/tree situation.

[Admins]

The chair thing and such things should be better handled by normal npcs. The tiles layer are more for made for allowing big blocks of graphics where normal npcs (single graphics) wouldn't work. You can set the z of the layer, and must handle playerz and jumping from cliffs by script. The projectiles already only affect objects with a height (z) difference of max 3, will add that for playertouchsme too, and need some way to check onwall() for a special tiles layer or a special z only

[falco10291029]

onwall3(x,y,z)

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

onwall3(x,y,z)

Perhaps instead of z, you could specify the layer of the level (like 0 for the standard, and -1 for the underground or whatever). Since a multi-layer level would probably not in itself be 3D, I'm not sure z would work.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Stefan

The chair thing and such things should be better handled by normal npcs. The tiles layer are more for made for allowing big blocks of graphics where normal npcs (single graphics) wouldn't work. You can set the z of the layer, and must handle playerz and jumping from cliffs by script. The projectiles already only affect objects with a height (z) difference of max 3, will add that for playertouchsme too, and need some way to check onwall() for a special tiles layer or a special z only

Yes, no kidding. But I hate making graphics from images on the tileset. I'm serious, it drives me insane.

The one thing is the open/close walls, though. It's insane!

As for the cliff, server lag bugs me about that. 0.3 seconds for a save var to be detected clientside is the best I have seen and that's on CLASSIC. Stefan, the only time I have seen such lag on other games is when I was on 56K. Then again, Graal definitely has a different system of handling things.

You know what would be nice? Level Templates. That way you could have a basic background for a level that you see the same style multiple times, say in a quest, and have it load faster. Then, there could be another layer of tiles that loads into that from the level editor, but instead it would only let in the small changes to the level. This would be good for keeping good uniform, too.

Stefan, why are signs serverside?

Okay, have a nice day.

[Admins]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

As for the cliff, server lag bugs me about that. 0.3 seconds for a save var to be detected clientside is the best I have seen and that's on CLASSIC. Stefan, the only time I have seen such lag on other games is when I was on 56K. Then again, Graal definitely has a different system of handling things.

It's better with the new scripting engine, also we plan to add something to the client soon to directly connect to npcserver (like NC).

Originally Posted by jake13jake

You know what would be nice? Level Templates. That way you could have a basic background for a level that you see the same style multiple times, say in a quest, and have it load faster. Then, there could be another layer of tiles that loads into that from the level editor, but instead it would only let in the small changes to the level. This would be good for keeping good uniform, too.

You mean sharing the background layer or so?

Originally Posted by jake13jake

Stefan, why are signs serverside?

Because they can contain variables (#s etc) and need to be translatable (Graal Kingdoms). It also means less data sent to the client since you only get the text when you touch the sign.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Stefan

You mean sharing the background layer or so?

Yes, yes I do.

Originally Posted by Stefan

Because they can contain variables (#s etc) and need to be translatable (Graal Kingdoms). It also means less data sent to the client since you only get the text when you touch the sign.

Ahh... you're right. I still like clientside signs better, but you make a point.

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by Skyld

Perhaps instead of z, you could specify the layer of the level (like 0 for the standard, and -1 for the underground or whatever). Since a multi-layer level would probably not in itself be 3D, I'm not sure z would work.

that's what i meant, actually.

[Zero Hour]

the higher levels should also cast shadows based on their height, this should be something you can turn off or on [:

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

the higher levels should also cast shadows based on their height, this should be something you can turn off or on [:

That wouldn't be difficult to script, but it also wouldn't be reasonable because different kinds of wall tiles have different dimension type deals... The prime example would be most inside tiles vs. outside tiles (that is ones that are predefined as inside/outside).