Cheatwindows Proposal
 

Hi,

Not real sure where to post this so Ill start in the graal main forum, and we can get it moved around from here if its in the wrong place.

I think the cheatwindows function for graalservers needs to be more indepth, and changed drastically. I will give an example and my proposed solution.

Autoit, is not a hacking tool rather, automation. However, if a server has it laying around as a hacking tool in the cheatwindows, and the server disconnects, it logs it, and bam, people are accused of wrongfully hacking. The more importaint thing to ask here is why Autoit is being flagged as a hacking tool and Managers who do not even understand what it is (Yes ive run into this, very recently, but its not about who knowes what, lets stay objective) are banning people for "Hacking".

My proposed solution is breaking down the cheatwindows a little further, to give catagories or something maybe. So that Memory Editing tools and Macroing Tools could be seperated and different punishments issued depending on what the server accepts on their server. (Ideally, neither of these would be accepted, but with this method, using Artmoney or Game Trainer [Memory Editing] as opposed to Autoit [Macro and Automation] would carry different sentances, rather then being clumped togather as "The Same Programs").

(Clarified in Edit Paragraph 3)***I would also like to see maybe a warning somewhere about what programs and windows are unacceptable instead of "SUPRISE ILLEGAL". Either way the server is going to flag them if they run it. If they wanted to compile a new program and run it instead, they probably would anyways.

The Reasoning: If you are working on a program which is completely unrelated to graal, and you compile and run it in autoit, graal will flag you as Hacking, boot you, then later you are banned (I experinced this personally while working on a program for rolling programs over my network, hey, at least the program worked ^^).

My concern is that paying customers are being accidently grouped into "Hacking groups" when they were just simply caught by something they dont understand.

Discuss?

Edit:

I can only Post one per 8 hours but its importaint I post this again due to Excalibur posting below. If a hacker really wants to Memory edit, they can simply find a memory editor which will let them compile the program themselves change some things, and bam, you have a program Graal can not detect.

Though if they were to want to go through that much trouble they would simply write the program themselves. This thread is for people like myself and others who have gotten caught in the crossfire of the misinterpretation of the cheatwindows functions. Also the misinterpretation of the programs some people put in them.

***The "Rough and Tough" Hacker who wants to do damage wont use a program that everyone else does anyways, the basic list is a way to keep people who dont understand out of the crossfire, then again I said something about where the real problem is the detection on macros grouping as "Hacking Tools" which is very wrong a ban of "Other Unlimited" for "Hacking Tools" when autoit was detected is atrocious. I can see where you come from on the list idea Excalibur, but even not giving anyone a list is not guaranteed, people do know what game programmers are looking for.

Noting Here a Post made by Stefan in another thread made later on:
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...10&postcount=3

You make a good point, I like the idea. Memory edit is a lot worse than macroing. And a list of programs might not be a good idea. Because hackers could use it to see what program they should download so they don't get caught hacking.

I got kicked off 2K2 just a few minutes ago simply for running AutoIT Window Info (which I was running for reasons entirely unrelated to Graal), a program that has pretty much zero abuse potential for Graal. Graal has now outlawed the use of an entire programming language.

I got kicked off of and banned on Npulse also for using 'Window Info' and Autoit v3. I was compiling some code for a GUI that we were making, I ran the .exe file and was kicked. A little while later I was banned for a month for “Speed hacking”.
I dont think its right that we are getting banned for using something that has no possible way to be abused on graal, it cant even read or write to the process memory.

I suppose you could use some sort of macroing program to stay on for long periods of time, doing soe repetitive job to make a lot of money, both wasting bandwidth, and hurting the economy.
But it should be labeled differently, and the punishment shouldn't be severe at all

You get banned from tons of MMOs for using bots, its an unfair advantage and should be banned for using them.

Well,

1. AutoIt doesn't even work on Graal because Graal uses a keypress system that AutoIt can't affect.
2. In my opinion, if a user wants to use a macro on a server (for other than making an idle bot or chat bot), then that server shouldn't even be on the classic list. In fact it should find a better manager.

So I do agree that labelling AutoIt as a "hacking" tool is silly.

I find this highly unlikely.

As highly unlikely as it sounds, it's true. A macro that simulates keypresses will never work. Now I'm not saying that there are no possible ways to make working macro... (Because there are ways.) I'm just saying that AutoIt will never work.

I am not aware of any way to distinguish a globally sent keystroke from AutoIT from someone pressing a key on their keyboard.

So if someone is using a turbo controller to repeatedly press keys or sticking a butter knife in their keyboard, would that count as botting too? If so, then let's jump back in time and take away joystick and keyboard compatibility and just play with our mice.

Wrong.

Then we should have predefined ban reasons removed. I liked the custom ones anyway.

Actually, depending on how autoit works you can probably capture all real keypresses by using a keyboard hook on WH_KEYBOARD_LL. Hooking WH_KEYBOARD would get AutoIt and real keypresses. Though it depends how AutoIt works i'm guessing simulated key presses would not be captured by a low level keyboard hook.

I corrected my above post. I'm only talking about AutoIt. You would understand if you read my second post as well.


Anyhow I think Graal's inability to detect simulated key presses was just accidental since Graal uses keys for both typing and moving. I doubt Stefan actually thought about macros.

However it is also possible to write a detection script. If you want an example, check out the ABC game that tests how fast you can type out the alphabet on your keyboard. It's called "Type ABC".

AutoIT doesn't use hooks. I guess Graal could hook most of the simple keys on the keyboard which would probably prevent AutoIT from using them. I don't think that's going to happen though.

no what I mean is, Graal, or any other program could distinguish between real and simulated keypresses using hooks.

To settle this, I went on to Aeon (because it doesn't matter if I get banned from Aeon) and loaded an AutoIT program that sends global keystrokes. Sure enough, it worked on Graal. Also, I wasn't disconnected (Possibly because Stefan said he removed AutoIT from the detected program list).

Yeah, there should be a way to detect if the program is actually being used on Graal.
If someone logged on Graal and accidentally left a program that can be considered hacking, they get punished.

Everyone knows that the hardcore macroers, such as I, use robotic arms programed to press keys on the keyboard. 2ez.

Someone told me that they were using a Dippy Drinking Bird to press the keys for them after they were caught and punished for using a macro :whatever:

http://www.thedrinkingbird.com/images/the_bird_blue.jpg

I miss the good old days, when you could detect memory editors by way of
Server: "here's a formula. Playerx+playerspeed=?"
Player: "Hmm, let's say playerspeed=9999, so 10032."
Server: "...wow, I got playerspeed=0.05. One of us is cheating and I don't think it's me."

But of course, I suppose it was never that easy - Stefan tried Checksums, the eternal equivalent of signing each message and the bots just forged said signature...
And serverside scripts have never had the free cycles to check everyone's math, not even at random...
And GPs have never been universally trusted, diligent and free enough to run such checks manually on each suspected hacker...(Yes, some have, but not all, and even those that would don't have the time to cover everyone ever)
Thus security is iffy. If you have the server do all your math, you can have a painfully simple server where very little can ever be done for all the lag. If you trust the clients to do all their math, you can't trust all the answers they return. If you scan them for programs by name or by core, they'll eventually come up with new names...if you assemble a short list of trusted cores, they'll eventually infilitrate the list by impersonating, I dunno, ICQ.
This doesn't even touch on Macros, and Turbo Controllers. IMHO, any game where a Turbo Controller helps deserves all the bad Turbo can throw at it. (Although has anyone else noticed it really doesn't help polish Gracie's car on Animal Crossing?)

It's really too bad. I'd hoped that the migration to P2P would at least make a finite list of paying customers who Could be hackers.

Has anyone even made a sleuth script to log who's on when bad **** happens to formulate a list of suspects? I mean, if Googi, Tyhm, ShaunElementis and Corpse are on every single time the server crashes, it doesn't give you the criminal on a silver platter but it gives you a list to go through.

But maybe security issues ought not be discussed in public.