Class Development
 

^ That's huge guys. Class development has been a topic brought up by players so many times in the past that eventually everyone just stopped bothering to ask.

I know this is going to be a tough topic to talk about, as we all already know how broken the current system is (Proper dmg output, bringing balance to the magic players of the community etc).

There's lots that we could discuss/debate for weeks, probably picking apart every in-game mechanic right down to its core. But lets try not do that this time-- Maybe in the future, with a larger team at GK's disposal, but not now.

Now then, let's brainstorm. What little things could happen to bring about some specialty in classes chosen?

Warrior: Higher shield-block % rate?

Barbarian: 2x dmg dealt when health drops below 50hp?

Thief: Ability to grant +15 speed boost for 10 seconds?

Priest: Auto-grace regeneration? Revives or Team Heals?

Sorcerer: Faster mana regeneration/less mana spell costs? Mage-only spells?

Alchemists: Alchemist only potions? Ability to use potions in core?


These are just a couple at the top of my head. What things would you all like to see?

Don't get too excited - there are hardcoded limits to what is available. That being said, Cubes has already showed he is capable of improving within limitations (skills) so there is some promise.

Amgerdd, y u buzzkill? :cry:

not a buzzkill, unfortunately just a limitation of this particular playerworld from day one.

Okay! We will do this.

I want to collect more ideas for each class.
Advantages - Disadvantages

Throw everything you can think of in here. We will combine the best ideas/arguments and work on this.

Theirs not really much you could do, id possibly suggest removing or upping. the 30stat cap and giving classes passive stats.

For example:

Warrior +2 str +1 con
Barbarian +6 str -2 con

Im not sure how much that'd throw a spanner in the works.

But because every class can have any skill/use any weapons, its really hard to think of something aside from that you could do.

Maybe stuff like small passive/active skills for each class.

Barbarian: -1hp a second +20 damage (toggleable)

Warrior: +5 damage (passive)

Thief: +3 speed (passive)

Alchemist: +10% bonus exp for party; Can create a exp potion @ lvl 70 giving an extra 10% bonus exp.

Priest: Passive HP Regen for party? Not sure of a number. + Passive Grace Regen

Sorcerer: Passive SP regen, 5 extra SP a level gained?

I wish healing was revamped. I've always loved playing the support classes.

I'd assume any class reworking would give everyone a chance to reselect? 90% of us are barbarians for the 20 20 20 start.

There will be 1 free class selection when done.

Without losing anything? (Stats,Skills,etc.?)

I would love to roll a priest if healing was actually more than it is now.

I like this idea, should we all be provided a class-reset (which would be a whole project in-itself I believe).

However, it must be perfectly executed and balanced the first time and not modified there-after, or this will just become Zodiac. (everyone jumping on the most op class until it gets nerfed, then repeat)

no pressure.

You get what I mean though right? I feel the need to further explain:

If there's one slightly stronger class (even a single stat..), especially on a largely stat/numbers based server like GK, everyone will rotate to that class. Similar to how everyone currently selects Barbarian to obtain a 20/20/20 start as said prior.

If that happens, balancing it after the original execution could produce a paradoxical effect of players always jumping ship to the next best class as they are modified/balanced further. Strikingly similar to how a multitude of players switched to or chose Ogma/Bile because they are currently more powerful. Another example can be found simply by playing Zodiac for a day.

Just saying, I'd never recommend a new player to be barbarian. Having >10 int is awful.

Sorc is definitely the way to go, magic's so strong early. :cool:

I see what you're saying Rogue. Especially if these class bonus's are enabled in events-- I can see people hopping over to a class that's less PvE supported to one more PvP supported in order to win more spar events.

Unless of course there's a way to disable these effects for spar.

Well first and foremost you need to make the existing stats balanced so that there's a reason to opt for favoring Int/Wis/Pow/Cha early game as well as provide crucial late game rewards specific to those classes.

Str Dex and Con all have very important rewards that scale well in any stage of the game. Str translates to damage output and carry weight which supports Dex's attack speed and movement speed bonuses and Con is just overall useful. But in the early stages of the game these appear to be the only important stats because speed is often such a deterrent early game if you're running at ~1.0.

Int, Pow, Wis and Cha don't offer much of anything early game because a players speed will make any grind as a pure mage into an impossible quest.

A simple late game suggestion would be to increase the caps on certain stats depending on classes. This wouldn't have any affect in early-mid game so however you differentiate there will probably still scale over and stack with this. For example, A warrior's Str and Con caps would move to 35Str 35Con, with Dex, Int etc.. remaining at the 30 cap, or even reduced caps are possible. Another example, Thief's would have Dex and Cha cap at 35. But this can only work if stats are balanced otherwise people will rush toward whatever makes them the best sword swinger like always.

I quite like this concept (since skills/spells/items/everything is universal), though it would still require immense amounts of balance. Lo I thinkith that these stat caps are inaccessible to be modified. Not sure... :\

I think it would be an amazing addition if some classes could NOT do certain things. Make them different. We all become the same, pretty much, even WITH this new proposed system.

Make it so a priest can't use weapons in the same way that a warrior can. Catch my drift?

Or simply make it for more difficult for all classes to do the same thing, for example a priest might gain 25-50% of physical experience that a barbarian would gain from killing the same monsters.

I think the class revamp should be done in the next few weeks together with the char slot system. Still need a good pro/contra list for each class.

So if you want to help, thin kabout every class, give it pro and contra and post it here.

A good start, but eventually everyone would be the same again Stephen. I want to be different from Bob and Mike. Not work towards the same goals. I want my Priest to be able to do things that the Sorcerer cannot. I want to be able to cast spells that the Thief cannot. I want the Barbarian to be able to wield weapons and unleash different attacks that I won't be able to use. I want the classes to compliment each other while being unique and having their own playstyles. My priest can wield a staff and perhaps certain bows, whilst not being able to equip axes. etc. Just some thoughts.
I still don't like the char slot system and I think a new poll should be done with the news about the update. (Unless it's already complete.)

I'll try to think of a legit list of class perks. I'll have it tonight or tomorrow morning.

Why should a Char Slot system not being good when the classes become unique to each other? I dont understand it.

I had trouble reading your question but I think I got it. I never said it was not a good thing. I'm just personally against it. Everything I've said on this particular thread pertains to players being more unique than each other. With this as a goal, a char slot system is a step back.

However, I am not the manager of Graal Kingdoms. It's not a bad idea, just not one I generally agree with myself.

(EDITED THE POST BEFORE THIS ONE)

I dont think the character slot system would work well with GKs mechanics/gameplay.

I'm completely against this philosophy. However, as a compromise I would suggest in this example that the experience difference is prohibitively low, such that it's completely impractical to reach anything greater than a physique level of ~20 in a priest.

If you're looking to to differentiate classes in a concrete way there are options - like the type of weapon or items each class is permitted to wield as well as the skills available to them. It doesn't have to be a black and white broad spanning thing.

There is a best way to play, and everyone goes for it. And as for your idea for exp. You've given me an even better idea. For example, making a certain amount the MAX a class can reach in a certain area. As such;

Priest Max levels

Agi 50
Mental 70
Magic 60
Phys 40
Personality 50
Wisdom 100

etc.

Sorcerer

Agi 40
Mental 90
Magic 100
Phys 30
Personality 50
Wisdom 60

I REALLY like this idea. I would not have thought of it had it not been for you Dr. Steef

And the way to balance it would to make all levels have to equal 300 or so.

Yeah, no. The idea is solid... for iGK perhaps? Or any game that hasn't been already established for a decade.

This would limit game-play immensely, (300/635.. more than 50% cause the highest levels take the most) and as seen in other recent threads... there are people playing solely to max their skills/etc.

Beyond that, it would require removing experience from players and/or a skill reset to achieve. Which just slaps anyone who bothered to leave the trade room and actually play the game. I personally would never touch the server again if this happened.

You don't think it's a problem that for an incredibly long time that was all there was to achieve?

Yes. A reset would work wonders after this. Imagine it. The game would be fantastic. Everyone would be at the same level. A fresh start. Kingdoms actually working together. It would be like it was. But better than before.

A reset is a topic for another time but it is something I've always supported for as long as I can remember. And this is coming from the guy who was #4 on the EXP list at one point as well as one of the wealthiest players simultaneously.

If what I remember is true about GK:

1. Classes have been not much more than a title and a starter pack choice
2. You can learn all the other skills you didn't get in the starter pack

Then changing the system to be meaningful (by applying benefits/limitations) retro-actively is a bad idea.

The only way I see it working is by introducing a separate class system that functions independently of the current (legacy) system. Character slots would then give you the avenue of allowing people to try the new system while still keeping their existing (legacy) character in tact.

Alternatively, we could introduce character slots - such that the persons legacy character is stored on Slot #1 and their new classed character is on #2, etc.

Complete edit of current post

We can just cancel out the current spell system and create another one with actual skills that are actually useful. Maybe start with 2-3 for each class. Most of GKs spells are useless in their current state anyways. It would be easier than hacking in some modification to the current systems.

A fresh start. I'm 100% open to that.

How long did it take you to finally come to that? :p

Perhaps an extra bonus for one stat being maxed at 35 instead of 30 depending on what class you have chosen?

Barbarian - str 35

Thief - dex 35

Warrior - con 35

Scorcerer - pow 35

Priest - wis 35

Alchemist - int 35

Conq - cha 50

I've been pushing for a reset for about 4 years. :whatever:

I've been a bit busy with my own project as well, but because I enjoy GK, I've got a few simple suggestions that could spare a lot of what already exists and re-purpose it for a smoother transition to a more simplified, useful system of classes.


First of all, a few preliminaries about overall proposed changes:

- Lower levels to 100 directly. 110 is superflous. Intervals of 10 help with scaling things nicely.
- Separate the skills by what classes they're already assigned to, and then make an additional category for 'universal' skills.
- Grades of materials for things like gathering professions need to be scattered throughout the world in THEMATICALLY APPROPRIATE dungeons.
- Enemies need to have their stats re-scaled to be based on a certain percentage of the player's current experience requirements, and put in dungeons that fit. (Vampires in Haunted Houses, Ice Fiends in the Ice Cave, Worms in Treasure Map Caves, etc.)
- Similarly, the amount of materials required to level up in gathering professions should also be percentage based, as should the crafting materials required for that level.
- Skills should be just as useful, and no set of sub-skills like 'spells' or 'prayers' or whatever should have proportionally more than another category. A lot of spells can be spared this way and better controlled.
- Wands are for Magic spells, Staves are for Intelligence spells, Rods are for Wisdom spells. Special spells you can't cast by learning.
- All skills are learned through literacy.
- Possible other limits like endurance or similar things might be well introduced to the more 'melee' system that cost points to use just like spells do. Just an option though.
- Each dungeon should be outfitted with a chest system based on that dungeon's level range when it comes to monsters. It's very similar to the way lords drop stuff, but a little more rewarding.
- Old content (xmas dungeon, halloween dungeon, easter dungeon, treasure maps, main island and kingdom dungeons, and so forth) should be re-purposed for becoming permanent game content.
- Item crafting should be difficult, but reward players well, and still allow players to level by doing what they're good at. Good items can still be made rare through things like low drop rates or difficult crafting.
- Basically, every skill should have a use, as well as a way to help the player earn experience.
- Spells, Arrows, and Melee Weapons need to be made more 'on-par' with each other in terms of damage. Weapons should also show their true gani time and not be misleading.
- Attack is determined by (Damage - Armor).
- Hit is determined by (WC - AC). If it succeeds, it inflicts a status effect (Attack Type) on the target.
- Resistance reduces the amount of time or the chance of success a status effect has of working. (Reduced freeze time, less burn time, less poison time, smaller stun success rate, etc.)
- If you're wanting players to play as multiple classes on different slots, you can't allow everyone to do everything, which means skill scrolls would probably need to go.
- Leveling should also be sped up substantially, but amounts should be based on what percentage different things are rewarding players for. So if you slay the strongest enemy in the game, (Let's say Kvasir since there's the hour lock.) it might give you 50-70 percent of the experience you need for your current level.
- Armor separated into what classes can use them.


Current Skills
(For copy-paste purposes!)


Updated Skills
New skills marked with *.

Should probably give a lower max then.. i mean, 35 str, 30 con, 30 dex is wicked, or even 30, 35, 30.. Maybe they should have like this, but with -2 or 3 of the appropriate opposing stat. Barbarians, for example, are supposed to be wacking people with hammers and axes and win with damage rather than sustain, and should then have max. 35 str, but max 28 con. This would actually make it possible to have different sets based on the class choice, and make equipment sort of class specific, which would make more set options available, and by effect, opening the possibility of introducing more items (class specific) without ruining the economy. Todays situation is kind of boring, as mages aren't really useful the only set viable is with dragon mail, rows(rodd), bord, soccers or msogs etc.

I say, make RoTs a viable option, make pure dex build viable, make pow or wis maxing viable etc, etc. :confused:

I'm backing this.

A lot easier to implement than reworking top-end stat bonuses like if we were to let Barbarian's get to 35max str. But we still focus on one of the main problems - that each skill set isn't equal in usefulness; there should be a profound benefit to having a class that lets personality and agility cap high.

If you guys come up with something I'll try to make it happen. I logged on debug last night and went briefly looked around and stat bonus' may not be possible due to how the mudlib handles equipment and stats. I think something to look into would be to finish up the mobile GK and eventually merge it with PC upon completion. I'd have to take a closer look at the mobile version to check the playability on PC but even if it's not playable currently it's something that could be added. It may even be a quick process if we just port some of GKs current UI's onto it.