Graal Forums

Graal Forums (https://forums.graalonline.com/forums/index.php)
-   Future Improvements (https://forums.graalonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
-   -   External Mac RC? (https://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81106)

Novo 08-08-2008 03:21 AM

External Mac RC?
 
Mac requires a native RC.

Virtualizing Windows to use the native RC is way too resource-hogging for a portable. In all dimensions: Disk Space, CPU, and Memory. My system goes to a sluggish speed in these cases. Backing up things is also near impossible (communications from mother os to virtualized os is difficult)

In-game client-rc is immensely slow... And I have time to write an entire line of code before I see the beginning of the line start to form. If I do a typo, I have to move the cursor to the point of interest to work, because waiting for the cursor to finish changing is too long. Also, it was badly designed for user experience. Backing up things is impossible.

Alternatives are to abandon Mac, which I have no interest in doing.

Inverness 08-08-2008 03:33 AM

BootCamp?

cbk1994 08-08-2008 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo (Post 1412378)
Mac requires a native RC.

Virtualizing Windows to use the native RC is way too resource-hogging for a portable. In all dimensions: Disk Space, CPU, and Memory. My system goes to a sluggish speed in these cases. Backing up things is also near impossible (communications from mother os to virtualized os is difficult)

In-game client-rc is immensely slow... And I have time to write an entire line of code before I see the beginning of the line start to form. If I do a typo, I have to move the cursor to the point of interest to work, because waiting for the cursor to finish changing is too long. Also, it was badly designed for user experience. Backing up things is impossible.

Alternatives are to abandon Mac, which I have no interest in doing.

The Intel version of Graal, with external windows, is waaaaay better. However, it's still not as good as the Windows RC.

I'm with you, but unfortunately, Stefan has said Windows won't be getting offline RC updates, which means that Mac will NEVER get any kind of offline tools.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412379)
BootCamp?

He wants a Mac RC, not a way to run Windows :cry:

I have to use Boot Camp to develop, unfortunately.

Novo 08-08-2008 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412379)
BootCamp?

BootCamp is worse than Parallels... Not only do you require more disk space to run it, you're locked out of all your music / apps / settings. Also... I'm a bit windows-claustrophobic. I just feel like I'm being contained in Windows, and it's a real icky feeling... It makes me not want to program at all.

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo (Post 1412378)
Mac requires a native RC.

Virtualizing Windows to use the native RC is way too resource-hogging for a portable. In all dimensions: Disk Space, CPU, and Memory. My system goes to a sluggish speed in these cases. Backing up things is also near impossible (communications from mother os to virtualized os is difficult)

In-game client-rc is immensely slow... And I have time to write an entire line of code before I see the beginning of the line start to form. If I do a typo, I have to move the cursor to the point of interest to work, because waiting for the cursor to finish changing is too long. Also, it was badly designed for user experience. Backing up things is impossible.

Alternatives are to abandon Mac, which I have no interest in doing.

Other alternative is to abandon Graal ;)

Don't hold your breath. People have been asking for a Mac RC, Gani editor, and, most of all, level editor, for years, despite the fact that Apple has a site dedicated to Graal

Inverness 08-08-2008 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1412381)
I'm with you, but unfortunately, Stefan has said Windows won't be getting offline RC updates, which means that Mac will NEVER get any kind of offline tools.

This is true, the only thing Mac will be getting is the external scripted windows when they're released in 2010.

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412386)
This is true, the only thing Mac will be getting is the external scripted windows when they're released in 2010.

Which, since they're still slow, are utterly useless.

cbk1994 08-08-2008 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412387)
Which, since they're still slow, are utterly useless.

They aren't TOO bad, but they need some improvement.

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1412390)
They aren't TOO bad, but they need some improvement.

I doubt it will be any faster if it's running off of gs2.
I'd love to test it out more, but hey, I don't own or work for a server, so I can't do any development anymore.

God, I can't even remember how to make guis :(

cbk1994 08-08-2008 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412407)
I doubt it will be any faster if it's running off of gs2.
I'd love to test it out more, but hey, I don't own or work for a server, so I can't do any development anymore.

God, I can't even remember how to make guis :(

It is faster.

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1412410)
It is faster.

On intel yes. Wow, it got faster when it was no longer running under emulation :rolleyes:
GS2 won't get fast enough after that. Not unless it's a native rc.
Same with the level editor (painfully slow).

cbk1994 08-08-2008 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412412)
On intel yes. Wow, it got faster when it was no longer running under emulation :rolleyes:
GS2 won't get fast enough after that. Not unless it's a native rc.
Same with the level editor (painfully slow).

I'm talking about the external windows. :rolleyes:

Inverness 08-08-2008 06:25 AM

Excaliber, please learn what about what you're talking about before you start sprouting off incorrect information about it.

Chris has beta tested the external windows for Mac, not you obviously.

DustyPorViva 08-08-2008 07:02 AM

Stefan just don't do external tools no more. Just gotta suck it up, I guess.

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412420)
Excaliber, please learn what about what you're talking about before you start sprouting off incorrect information about it.

Chris has beta tested the external windows for Mac, not you obviously.

And found them to be slower than the windows version, thus flawed.

Inverness 08-08-2008 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412436)
And found them to be slower than the windows version, thus flawed.

Sucks for you then.

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412447)
Sucks for you then.

Which has pretty much been the reply to Mac players from cyberjoueurs. :\
Even though we still pay the same amount

Kristi 08-08-2008 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412407)
I doubt it will be any faster if it's running off of gs2.

Um, gs2 code is compiled before it is sent to the client.

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I never noticed any type of speed problem with the scripted rc. I just hate having the graal client open to use it :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412482)
Which has pretty much been the reply to Mac players from cyberjoueurs. :\
Even though we still pay the same amount

You might personally play the same amount as a windows player, but the windows players combined put in extremely far more hours of play then the mac players combined. Why would you not focus on the majority of your playerbase? CJ already exceeded many gaming companies in the fact they even bothered to make the software cross-platform.

cbk1994 08-08-2008 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412436)
And found them to be slower than the windows version, thus flawed.

I really wish you'd stop being so damn negative all the time.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi (Post 1412520)
You might personally play the same amount as a windows player, but the windows players combined put in extremely far more hours of play then the mac players combined. Why would you not focus on the majority of your playerbase? CJ already exceeded many gaming companies in the fact they even bothered to make the software cross-platform.

This is of course true, but this also means that CJ should possibly put more effort into the Mac client to attract more players.

It depends on which way you see it. Personally, I think instead of doing crazy **** like iGraal, that could have been used to make a Mac RC client.

I wonder if it would be practical to make a Java RC client, so that they could more easily update it, and still stay cross platform.

Novo 08-08-2008 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi (Post 1412520)
CJ already exceeded many gaming companies in the fact they even bothered to make the software cross-platform.

How about this: Give me specifications on the protocol used... MINUS the encryption method... Basically -- They'd require only implementing the protocol required to communicate with the already-made remote controls.

Then... I'll make the Mac RC myself... Without the protocol for data-in / data-out... Like that, the Mac RC would be already developed and... They'd just have to copy and paste Linux's cipher methods.

I don't mind making these apps myself... But I've never hacked before, and reverse-engineering apps isn't my fortÚ, nor do I enjoy it.

As for external others (level editor, gani editor)... The apps can be made by developers. It's not that difficult to make: The files are pretty much in ASCII, easily understandable from text editor.

Fry 08-08-2008 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo (Post 1412527)
How about this: Give me specifications on the protocol used... MINUS the encryption method... Basically -- They'd require only implementing the protocol required to communicate with the already-made remote controls.

If your problem is already the lack of knowledge about the protocol, then I somehow doubt you would get beyond basic RC chat functionality before getting bored and disappearing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo (Post 1412527)
As for external others (level editor, gani editor)... The apps can be made by developers. It's not that difficult to make: The files are pretty much in ASCII, easily understandable from text editor.

Yeah it's all really no problem, just parse the file and there's your level editor! No work at all really, maybe one hour!

Talk is good, but maybe you should make something before finding excuses or making claims. The thing is that it's not trivial work at all, and especially cross-platform support is not.

I do have to agree with Kristi that it is already a pretty big achievement to actually have the game run on all three platforms, and with having the development tools implemented by the game's scripting language you can keep these cross-platform problems to a minimum.

What you could complain about is GraalOnline not actually providing a scripted level editor. But as I said there is certainly nothing trivial about the work involved.

Kristi 08-08-2008 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fry (Post 1412563)
I do have to agree with Kristi that it is already a pretty big achievement to actually have the game run on all three platforms, and with having the development tools implemented by the game's scripting language you can keep these cross-platform problems to a minimum.

BRILLIANT! I wish I had the ability to give out rep more then once.

You people complain about the lack of mac tools, but then complain about the tools being scripted in game.

Although, I wouldn't object to external tools coded in java... ;)

I use perl to generate levels and vim/kate (depending on my mood) to edit them.

DustyPorViva 08-08-2008 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi (Post 1412591)
You people complain about the lack of mac tools, but then complain about the tools being scripted in game.

Just because it's been done, doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for something better.

Kristi 08-08-2008 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1412600)
Just because it's been done, doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for something better.

Point is that doing it in game makes it cross platform. If he modifies something about the rc protocol, the downloaded rcs would stop functioning. It is a lot easier to maintain the scripted rc.

As for a level editor, *anyone* could make that. The format of an .nw file is public.

DustyPorViva 08-08-2008 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi (Post 1412604)
Point is that doing it in game makes it cross platform. If he modifies something about the rc protocol, the downloaded rcs would stop functioning. It is a lot easier to maintain the scripted rc.

As for a level editor, *anyone* could make that. The format of an .nw file is public.

Ya, it's a lot easier to manage... but besides that point, a lot of people tend not to like it. I really shouldn't get into another thing about scripted vs external. My point is just because it is there, and usable, doesn't mean people should lower their standards. Yes, they get a cross-platform RC finally, but it's not what they were expecting.

cbk1994 08-08-2008 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi (Post 1412591)
Although, I wouldn't object to external tools coded in java... ;)

I really think this is a good idea. I might study up on my Java and try making one. It's been a while since I've worked with Java.

That, or it might be better to just write a plugin for Tiled (someone else mentioned this in another thread).

excaliber7388 08-08-2008 11:09 PM

Java wouldn't bee too bad. At least it would be a dedicated application and external :)
Part of the problem is that the scripted ones also rely on an internet connection (and a fast one at that), which I rarely have at school.
The main reason I stopped paying them for gold/vip and a playerworld was because these tools ran horrifically slow on my school's network. Not worth the money if I can only sit back for a minute ever time I try to open an npc to place a tile.

The scripted tools really bite, they aren't the answer. We need real, native applications. I've had some requests to start developing again, and I would in a heartbeat, if I knew there would be some good dev tools I could use. But the last time I tried to use the Mac rc and level editor, it was terrible. Terrible enough for me to quit graal and leave Dark Rival (which I had worked on for over a year) to rot. :mad:

Loriel 08-08-2008 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi (Post 1412591)
Although, I wouldn't object to external tools coded in java... ;)

Recompiling the tools for every platform is probably the least of the problems involved.

DustyPorViva 08-08-2008 11:45 PM

I like how it seems to be only GST that support scripted tools.

Skyld 08-09-2008 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1412664)
I like how it seems to be only GST that support scripted tools.

That's 'cause we actually care to properly weigh the benefits of them. :) I've said time and time over if there are big problems with the Scripted RC, to post it in the thread. How else are we meant to know?

DustyPorViva 08-09-2008 12:18 AM

I don't think I'm biased against it at all, I've weighed the pros and cons just as much as you all. I've posted many times that I can appreciate all the work that has gone in to it, but I just don't see it ever being better than external.

excaliber7388 08-09-2008 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1412664)
I like how it seems to be only GST that support scripted tools.

Because they took a part in making it.
Like how that play you did in second grade was the ****, but when you watch the video later, you ask why so many people fell off the stage.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyld (Post 1412672)
That's 'cause we actually care to properly weigh the benefits of them. :) I've said time and time over if there are big problems with the Scripted RC, to post it in the thread. How else are we meant to know?

I could not use them on my school network, they're that slow and therefore, useless.
I'm getting so tired of people telling me how great they are. I abandoned a game because it was so difficult to use the tools. They gui for them is alright, but the speed was terrible because of a) No intel client, and b), bad connection.
I haven't done any dev since then, because I CAN'T without a staff position. :rolleyes:
So, here's the pros and cons:
External one: use any time, no lag, no internet connection, no staff possition needed, could be cross platform if done right,
Scripted one: lag, depends on internet connection, you must be staff to use, cross platform

Which one is better :rolleyes:

Stop being so biased. I had no reason to dislike the scripted one. I was like "finally, progress!". But when I tried to use it, I became disgusted, and, eventually, quit Graal for a while, and developing altogether.

But I'm sure I was just imagining that. :\

Inverness 08-09-2008 01:09 AM

If your school network is slow then IT is useless not Graal's tools.

excaliber7388 08-09-2008 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412704)
If your school network is slow then IT is useless not Graal's tools.

They depend on a network. Does your level editor?
Now, the RC would be faster if it was native. I found less lag on the windows version on my school network (almost none), and a better gui than on the Mac version.

Inverness 08-09-2008 01:19 AM

When you buy a Mac you accept the responsibility that you are not a priority when it comes to game developers.

So stop whining about it and get BootCamp or so.

I'm sure Stefan is quite aware of the plight of Mac users, but its just not a priority to him. External scripted windows are a better universal solution that external applications so that is what he is doing.

You might get a more strait-forward response from Stefan if you simply sent him a forum PM with your main point. If Stefan responds in the negative then it should be over then.

LoneAngelIbesu 08-09-2008 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412697)
Scripted one: lag, depends on internet connection, you must be staff to use, cross platform

I'm not 100% sure about this, but wouldn't it be possible to create .NW files from a GUI (aka, scripted level editor), then save it to /scriptfiles/ or something? You wouldn't be editing levels on a server, though. You'd just be drawing on a GUI that would convert what you've drawn in to the .NW format. If that's possible, then you wouldn't need to be staff to use a scripted level editor, or even a scripted GANI editor.

cbk1994 08-09-2008 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu (Post 1412725)
I'm not 100pecent sure about this, but wouldn't it be possible to create .NW files from a GUI (aka, scripted level editor), then save it to /scriptfiles/ or something? You wouldn't be editing levels on a server, though. You'd just be drawing on a GUI that would convert what you've drawn in to the .NW format. If that's possible, then you wouldn't need to be staff to use a scripted level editor, or even a scripted GANI editor.

I know Zero (zokemon) plans on trying to get his added to the client so it opens when you press F4, and if you are staff, you can edit the server's levels. Otherwise, you can save to your hard disk.

excaliber7388 08-09-2008 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1412709)
When you buy a Mac you accept the responsibility that you are not a priority when it comes to game developers.

So stop whining about it and get BootCamp or so.

I'm sure Stefan is quite aware of the plight of Mac users, but its just not a priority to him. External scripted windows are a better universal solution that external applications so that is what he is doing.

You might get a more strait-forward response from Stefan if you simply sent him a forum PM with your main point. If Stefan responds in the negative then it should be over then.

Windows is not an option :\

So? Of course he's aware, he can read, right? It's the fact that he knows and still does nothing. He's in the best position to release a Mac level editor, having already made a Windows one, and would have many algorithms already completed.
Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu (Post 1412725)
I'm not 100║/o sure about this, but wouldn't it be possible to create .NW files from a GUI (aka, scripted level editor), then save it to /scriptfiles/ or something? You wouldn't be editing levels on a server, though. You'd just be drawing on a GUI that would convert what you've drawn in to the .NW format. If that's possible, then you wouldn't need to be staff to use a scripted level editor, or even a scripted GANI editor.

Yeah, it would be possible. Of course, you're still relying on gscript an an internet connection :\
I used to like to edit levels when I had internet downtime.
Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1412727)
I know Zero (zokemon) plans on trying to get his added to the client so it opens when you press F4, and if you are staff, you can edit the server's levels. Otherwise, you can save to your hard disk.

Oh yeah, I heard about that...
2 years ago. :\

cbk1994 08-09-2008 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388 (Post 1412738)
Yeah, it would be possible. Of course, you're still relying on gscript an an internet connection :\
I used to like to edit levels when I had internet downtime.

Oh yeah, I heard about that...
2 years ago. :\

Zero's isn't a normal online level editor, it parses the NW file, so you wouldn't need a fast internet connection.

What do you mean 2 years ago? He's since revamped it with external windows, but he needs a few things and Stefan so far hasn't added them.

DustyPorViva 08-09-2008 02:25 AM

I think Zero's editor departs too far away from the external editor's interface and functions to be appealing to older level makers.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:35 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright (C) 1998-2019 Toonslab All Rights Reserved.