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Gambet 08-21-2009 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon (Post 1517204)
While I agree with a number of the things you said, I believe this team does have the potential to do a number of things "the community" can't do.

For one, if it is made up of talented developers, it will have a strong influence on the decisions Stefan makes.
It isn't just about you "having connections with Stefan," it's about making a connection with the community and Stefan.


And yes, while many developers post examples and more in the Code Gallery, something this team could do is release a series of coherent and high-quality packages for servers to use (as discussed in the Scripting Forum's thread); nothing of this sort exists in the Code Gallery.


A strong team brings uniformity and coherency to the table, something that will never come out of a mass of developers releasing content.

Problem with the GPackages idea is that there wouldn't be many packages to make since most systems are server-specific unless the team is out to make full RPG systems, gun systems, classic systems, and all of that sort of thing for every playerworld to just swoop in and start using on their servers where we'll have a hundred servers using the same systems, that doesn't seem like a very good idea and would take away many jobs for the current scripters.

WhiteDragon 08-21-2009 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambet (Post 1517205)
Problem with the GPackages idea is that there wouldn't be many packages to make since most systems are server-specific unless the team is out to make full RPG systems, gun systems, classic systems, and all of that sort of thing for every playerworld to just swoop in and start using on their servers where we'll have a hundred servers using the same systems, that doesn't seem like a very good idea.

What defines a server is rarely ever found in the base systems used; it is defined by plot, gameplay, coherency, and innovation.

Supplying other developers and server admins with these packages could get all the "crud" out of the way and allow them to focus on the more important things that actually define the server.


If you suggest that many servers using the same systems is a bad idea, you probably shouldn't even be developing on Graal, which is in fact a system itself.

The packages won't be mandatory to use, and they won't limit development freedom; someone could still go and develop a new innovative system if required for their server concept.

Gambet 08-21-2009 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon (Post 1517206)
What defines a server is rarely ever found in the base systems used; it is defined by plot, gameplay, coherency, and innovation.

Supplying other developers and server admins with these packages could get all the "crud" out of the way and allow them to focus on the more important things that actually define the server.


If you suggest that many servers using the same systems is a bad idea, you probably shouldn't even be developing on Graal, which is in fact a system itself.

The packages won't be mandatory to use, and they won't limit development freedom; someone could still go and develop a new innovative system if required for their server concept.


Trust me, I'm not the one that takes a toll when I stop developing for Graal, so choose your words wisely. The same would apply for all active developers, since we all do this voluntarily and gain nothing out of it except self-satisfaction, so the more you run around telling people not to develop for the game, the more it will die out.

As for the packages, yes, it would defeat the purpose of learning how to script for the newer players and would decrease the need of scripters when managers can just install packages developed by the team and save themselves the trouble of looking for a scripter. It's fine for something like a global tailor or a global guild system, but adding in full systems that would need close to nothing to tweak to get a server running would be a bad idea and there would be too many servers with the same gameplay systems applying for hosted and classic. There's a reason why others get angry when full scripts are posted on the forums when answering player-related questions since those players will just copy-and-paste the script and not bother to learn anything from it.

There is a fine line of systems that would be suitable for the packages and systems that define a server cross that line. Basic core systems are fine, but you're arguing with me when I'm talking about full systems, which leads me to believe that you would want the team to script such systems for everyone to use which would be a massive mistake.

WhiteDragon 08-21-2009 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambet (Post 1517207)
Trust me, I'm not the one that takes a toll when I stop developing for Graal, so choose your words wisely. The same would apply for all active developers, since we all do this voluntarily and gain nothing out of it except self-satisfaction, so the more you run around telling people not to develop for the game, the more it will die out.

You took that way too literally. It was not a shot at you or anyone else.
My point was that if you think nothing innovative can come out of something based on top of a system, you should take a look at Graal itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambet (Post 1517207)
As for the packages, yes, it would defeat the purpose of learning how to script for the newer players and would decrease the need of scripters when managers can just install packages developed by the team and save themselves the trouble of looking for a scripter. It's fine for something like a global tailor or a global guild system, but adding in full systems that would need close to nothing to tweak to get a server running would be a bad idea and there would be too many servers with the same gameplay systems applying for hosted and classic. There's a reason why others get angry when full scripts are posted on the forums when answering player-related questions since those players will just copy-and-paste the script and not bother to learn anything from it.

There is a fine line of systems that would be suitable for the packages and systems that define a server cross that line.

I do not agree. Who loses when an RPG-Server and a RTS-Server use the same systems for controlling the health of their players? Who loses when an bow and a wand both use the same script to shoot projectiles? No one.

It doesn't matter what systems you are using. It takes ideas and a united team to make a good server.

If you are concerned with people just grabbing the package and making their whole server based off of that - don't be. Because no one will play it and it will die, just as it would now if any made a "cool new server where you can run and slash at people and even pick up stones".

Gambet 08-21-2009 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon (Post 1517210)
I do not agree. Who loses when an RPG-Server and a RTS-Server use the same systems for controlling the health of their players? Who loses when an bow and a wand both use the same script to shoot projectiles? No one.

It doesn't matter what systems you are using. It takes ideas and a united team to make a good server.

If you are concerned with people just grabbing the package and making their whole server based off of that - don't be. Because no one will play it and it will die, just as it would now if any made a "cool new server where you can run and slash at people and even pick up stones".


Problem is even the PWA are trying to crack down on too many servers having similar content.

Inverness 08-21-2009 09:11 PM

Some input from Stefan might be nice. After all, I'm sure there are more people than me who want Stefan to also do his part in making Graal a better game.

WhiteDragon 08-21-2009 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambet (Post 1517212)
Problem is even the PWA are trying to crack down on too many servers having similar content.

And they can continue to do so even with these packages in place. The systems do not define the "heart" of the server.

There will always be people who lack innovation and will just try to copy other's ideas.

These packages will make it a lot easier for the innovative developers to make the next-gen server, which is what is truly important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1517213)
Some input from Stefan might be nice. After all, I'm sure there are more people than me who want Stefan to also do his part in making Graal a better game.

I agree, and would like his input on the group as well, including some of the things brought up.

Inverness 08-21-2009 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon (Post 1517214)
And they can continue to do so even with these packages in place. The systems do not define the "heart" of the server.

There will always be people who lack innovation and will just try to copy other's ideas.

These packages will make it a lot easier for the innovative developers to make the next-gen server, which is what is truly important.

In response to both of you, I would think of it similar to licensing a game engine. Mass Effect, BioShock, Mirror's Edge, Unreal Tournament 3, etc. all use the same game engine and yet they're all quite unique.

WhiteDragon 08-21-2009 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1517217)
In response to both of you, I would think of it similar to licensing a game engine. Mass Effect, BioShock, Mirror's Edge, Unreal Tournament 3, etc. all use the same game engine and yet they're all quite unique.

I agree -- that was the analogy I was trying to make with Graal.

Bell 08-21-2009 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambet (Post 1517212)
Problem is even the PWA are trying to crack down on too many servers having similar content.

I think you may be mistaking 'similar' content with direct thefts. Those servers we've stomped on are not only using things directly taken and renamed from images to gani's but the levels themselves. The design and overall gameplay were direct clones.

Other than that the only ones we've cracked down on have copyrighted content such as the neopets one.

While we are asking them to bring some gameplay that is new and different from the other servers, we fully understand that there will always be similar aspects. Its really not in Graal's best interests to have several servers that have the exact same content and gameplay. All that does is thin out the playerbase to several servers. In which case they will all eventually die.

Seich 08-22-2009 05:36 AM

I think that making complete systems, ready for the grabs would allow server managers to actually spend more time developing details. Most of the time spent in new and serious servers will be spent in the making and developing basic systems. After all, most servers have the same base scripts (i.e. health, movement, etc.) and they all do basically the same, some servers might have better systems and others might be just bad so, this will simply help raise the general quality of content. That way a new playerworld would be able to start focusing on details which, I think is the most important thing playerworlds would get from such a team. If I could start a server today and, have it running high quality basic systems in some hours (that I can further modify if I need to) I can instantly start focusing on other aspects of the server such as game play. By having this basic systems provided I can start developing my quests and focusing on the things that actually make a server unique. Indeed, there will be several servers who will just die due to their lack of originality and content but, many are already dying without even getting started due to the lack of developers and sometimes originality as well.

Apart from the benefits I see for player worlds, I also see many advantages for developers. We could document global scripts and with this, allow developers to make use of these scripts in a more fluent way. For example I could go into a server that might have the same basic health system which I have already worked with on many other servers plus, it's well documented on the wiki this, will allow me to start developing using it without spending much time analyzing scripts and such. I could script baddies knowing that this system has some command to damage players and so on.

There might have been many flaws(which many people have pointed out before me) but, I think that in general this is worth trying.

Pelikano 08-22-2009 11:04 AM

You guys could just create such a group on your own, get on testbed and start working.

Twinny 08-22-2009 01:57 PM

I think I raised the point in my thread on the GPackages but these packages, if implemented, will provide the base, low-level functions needed for higher level systems. They will never be a complete system in themselves because each server is likely to customize their server from the returns the system gives.

They can be thought of as building blocks or even just placeholders but it could never replace scripters and shouldn't hamper one's ability to learn

Inverness 08-22-2009 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelikano (Post 1517474)
You guys could just create such a group on your own, get on testbed and start working.

If you had read more posts in this thread you'd probably understand why that is not an option.

Draenin 08-22-2009 06:39 PM

We need a new Gscript dictionary. The wiki breaks up GS2 stuff way too much, and there's nothing even included for it in the default level editor. It has GS1 documentation, but not GS2.

But that aside, seems like an okay idea.


I can see how some might see it as slave labor, but others who actually care might see things otherwise. It would be nice if this new team were able to produce things for the community like a new default pics1.png with better-looking tiles or something like Mallard's Particle Editor, which makes it really simple for people like me to help out scripters without actually knowing much about gscript's language syntax.


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