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-   -   Global Development Team? (http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87453)

Spark910 08-18-2009 07:44 PM

I think the title will imply something that it's not. Furthermore, as a general rule taking talented people (in terms of development) and giving them non-development tasks and duties only limits the time they are able to develop - a generally negative thing for Graal.

What I thought the team would do (from the job title, before reading the description) would be to make content for a server. This I would suggest with all my heart, as there needs to be a new classic playerworld in my opinion to set a quality benchmark to motivate current classic and development servers to up the ante and start producing a lot of new content to keep current players entertained and attract/retain new ones.

Therefore, considering the above will not happen as I believe there is generally zero support for a new classic world from the powers that be, at least I would request the two roles of this proposed team are separated, so that someone who knows about the general Graal systems without too much skill/creativity/motivation to make them for real worlds is given the task of updating the wiki rather than distracting talented individuals (also not sure where current global staff are not able or are underqualified to update the wiki?)

Switch 08-18-2009 07:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
we haz gdt!

Inverness 08-18-2009 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch (Post 1516028)
we haz gdt!

That's right, you'd better have scripting above the other development roles.

Switch 08-18-2009 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1516031)
That's right, you'd better have scripting above the other development roles.

That's the beauty of it.
It will consist of mainly scripters, a few level designers, a bit less graphic designers, and almost no Gani artist.
"POWER TO THE PEOPLE!"

Gambet 08-18-2009 08:15 PM

This is quite a bad idea and really won't go anywhere. The responsibilites listed are all currently things that forum members do anyways, and the questions that the team would answer are currently being asked and mostly answered on the forums themselves. The players already update the wiki when they feel like doing it, and development questions are answered pretty quickly on the forums (at least we do a good job of it in the scripting section).

Honestly this just sounds like a labor force even though you're trying to avoid creating one. All this will do is further backtrack development because you're going to remove some of the only active talented developers that the game has left from the servers they are working on (since they'll probably not have as much time to be developing on that server) and sticking them on a team where there is no benefit to joining (unless you consider a guild tag a benefit). Hell, even if you threw in a global RC for the team, there would be nothing new coming from this project (especially since the members will probably just server hop and show off that they have global RC).

The suggestion Spark made is interesting where a team would be created to develop a new, high-quality server, but even that would be labor work since the developers would be developing just for the sake of developing (which most of us have been doing for way too long at this point).

Hiro 08-19-2009 12:01 AM

this just isn't what graal needs unless this task force is being assembled to make their own content and release it. a globally-supported server in the works that is made up of a collection of the best developers on graal given direction and motivation would be awesome

Scary_Sock 08-19-2009 10:50 PM

This should be given a chance atleast. Its almost the same concept as the GST, and shouldn't be thrown away. There are some good Developers out there that would join this team and be helpful.

Give this team a shot. The chances of it failing is slim, but not that slim.

Switch 08-19-2009 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock (Post 1516422)
This should be given a chance atleast. Its almost the same concept as the GST, and shouldn't be thrown away. There are some good Developers out there that would join this team and be helpful.

Give this team a shot. The chances of it failing is slim, but not that slim.

This team could be put together by anyone via Guild CP. See my image, it's exactly what the GDT, as explained, would be.

cyan3 08-19-2009 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch (Post 1516432)
This team could be put together by anyone via Guild CP. See my image, it's exactly what the GDT, as explained, would be.

It couldn't be created by a normal graal player. It would be declined because it has global in the title.

Switch 08-19-2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyan3 (Post 1516434)
It couldn't be created by a normal graal player. It would be declined because it has global in the title.

It doesn't necessarily need to be called a "Global Development Team", for example there's this one: http://graalonline.com/guilds/viewgu...ll=0&view=info

Bell 08-20-2009 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crono (Post 1515767)
Depends on how involved Stefan and/or unixmad want to get. Although it could have good intentions, it seems like a form of cheap labour.

This was not Stefan's idea, this was proposed solely by the PWA and at this point is not fully supported by him. Its in response to many of the complaints we see on the forums about how there is a lack of participation by the global community in improving the overall quality of Graal itself. In the beginning there will be little involvement by them as we intend to start small, prove its worth then expand as needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by papajchris (Post 1515768)
well first off, this idea if works, could and would help many servers get further in the path to classic.

I think you may be misinterpreting its purpose. This team is not to develop for server renters. Its to supply things such as scripts or gani's that can be used globally. But at the same time if a private server is having an issue that none of their staff can resolve they have a team to go to in order to ask for some additional help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticX2X (Post 1515769)
I have to agree with Crono on this being a form of cheap labor.

I don't see many benefits at all since people can/already do many of the things this possible team is aiming for. Especially when not given Global RC.

Did we not all begin developing for Graal because it was interesting and enjoyable for us? I won't go off on a tangent here as this is going to be a large enough wall of text but have you all forgotten why you came here in the first place and stayed? You said it yourself, you do not need global rc to help servers but if you are a subdivision of the PWA the server renters can be more secure in the knowledge that their server plans will remain within their own server.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vman13x (Post 1515772)
I agree with zeus, but I dont think it will work, like vimes said they could just go to testbed, and maybe testbed can be moved to the hosted section, so everyone can see it? As a discription it could say classic enabled, ect, sorry for getting off topic lol.

Tig could request this as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexandralove (Post 1515780)
From my point of view, currenly a Global Development Team would be best to replace GST.

Basically, it would help on anything right ? It could possibly work, but like Chris said it would ruin some of the development process.
When you rent a playerworld, it's actually your job to develop it, so if a team was already ready to dedicate time for it, it would just screw everything up. That team would actually need to be really good I guess ? For most new people renting out a server and having projects, don't you think that it would be kind of "unfair" for new and growing developers?

"Global Documentation Team" would be better I guess. Could just be a "moving" wiki, and people needing help would ask members of that team for their current knowledge.

It will be replacing GST as well and putting in the addition of the other teams that keep privately asking Stefan to be reformed. it would just be a single entity instead of several.

I was intentionally vague about what the duties would be. Stefan just requested that they be involved in keeping the wiki up to date as well. I don't see how it would be unfair to new developers to have the addition of the team. They would still be free to develop at their own pace in their own way but would have the benefit of a place to go to if they really got stuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykel (Post 1515785)
So, you're going to take some of the best developers? This is a game that is starving for good developers and original content, and your "main purpose" is going to have nothing to do with development? :(

No, they are still free to develop wherever they wish on their own time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus (Post 1515788)
I think Bell means that the Playerworld Administration and Global Scripting Teams have lost their intended purposes and have deteriorated into checking servers for copyright infringing content, cross-server content theft, and solving staff problems.

Yes, that is what I meant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twinny (Post 1515849)
And if you have the ego to go with it. It's unfortunate but alot of staff members have the main goal of gaining more, 'power' while furthering their own needs. The best way to entice younger scripters (and maybe other development branches) is with the promise of power.

Older scripters generally become apathetic to the situation and slowly branch of to other sources of coding.

I don't want people that are in it for power, I want people that are doing it because they enjoy it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooper200000 (Post 1515854)
Would this be a better project if you didn't have the word global in it?

No

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon (Post 1515901)
Why not do something like Stack Overflow (google it) where everyone is rewarded on a case-by-case basis and more help gives you a higher spot on a list.

That way it encourages all developers to contribute, and encourages people to continue contributing. This is in contrast with something like the GDT where there are only a few members, the members can go inactive, and the members do not have any incentive to contribute after they gain the tag.

However, a solution like that has other problems like Participation Inequality (read the article by Jakob Nielsen) and the quality of the help provided.

Regardless, if you are just creating a team that goes around and helps people and doesn't get any reward from it, I believe a "competition"-style system like that would work better.

Something like that is always possible in the future but at this point we still have to prove that the people will actually stay involved and not do what normally happens. Get the job then do minimal work just to keep the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link (Post 1515905)
I wouldn't be adverse to making GUI related scripts that could be easily implemented by most servers.

This would be its purpose. I'm glad I didn't confuse someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanDaMan (Post 1515923)
If you need any tutorials creating in regards to GMAP's send me a forum PM and I'll do my best to help!

Would definitely be helpful. As most of you know, I am not a developer but I've probably fixed more gmaps in the past 3 years than I care to remember. If a server owner can't bother to take the time to watch a video then I seriously doubt his desire to make a successful server.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness (Post 1515930)

Inspiration is what is necessary to fuel my scripting, not money or promise of power. Stefan has not done alot to inspire me to put time and effort into Graal. I have made a great deal of simple feature requests that have fallen on deaf ears and I'm just tired of it.

If Stefan could do more to show me that Graal actually might have a future I will be interested in joining this Global Development Team with or without a global RC, simply because I enjoy coding.

So do something about it. Join the team and prove its a valuable addition. Just as a picture is worth a thousand words. Seeing a concept working on an active server is worth more than trying to explain to someone that it would work.

Bell 08-20-2009 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spark910 (Post 1516020)
I think the title will imply something that it's not. Furthermore, as a general rule taking talented people (in terms of development) and giving them non-development tasks and duties only limits the time they are able to develop - a generally negative thing for Graal.

What I thought the team would do (from the job title, before reading the description) would be to make content for a server. This I would suggest with all my heart, as there needs to be a new classic playerworld in my opinion to set a quality benchmark to motivate current classic and development servers to up the ante and start producing a lot of new content to keep current players entertained and attract/retain new ones.

Therefore, considering the above will not happen as I believe there is generally zero support for a new classic world from the powers that be, at least I would request the two roles of this proposed team are separated, so that someone who knows about the general Graal systems without too much skill/creativity/motivation to make them for real worlds is given the task of updating the wiki rather than distracting talented individuals (also not sure where current global staff are not able or are underqualified to update the wiki?)

The title is correct. In addition to the things listed, if they felt the desire to enter into such a project such as GraalOlympics or a single new server. They could do that as well. I just would like this to get off the ground without grand illusions of miracle changes within its first weeks.

We are not taking talented people and asking them to do non development tasks. We are asking them to document what they do. This in itself makes their work easier to understand by people with lesser knowledge.

The current global team is too small to do all of this ourselves. Two of us are not qualified as far as I'm concerned, myself included. I'm pretty sure if I edit the wiki, Graal will explode into a million insane gremlins that will eat the intraweb from the inside out. Skyld and Tig are already trying to update the wiki whenever they have spare time and TSA is semi qualified.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambet (Post 1516034)
This is quite a bad idea and really won't go anywhere. The responsibilites listed are all currently things that forum members do anyways, and the questions that the team would answer are currently being asked and mostly answered on the forums themselves. The players already update the wiki when they feel like doing it, and development questions are answered pretty quickly on the forums (at least we do a good job of it in the scripting section).

As I said before, the list is not complete. It was only a suggested plan to implement. We came to the forum group to get additional ideas of what could or should be done. Unfortunately not everyone comes to the forums but usually the most talented group does, which is why we started here. There have been suggestions for a long time now of developing a new high quality server but thats as far as it goes. The majority of you either refuse to work together on the same server or don't actively wish to be involved in it yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch (Post 1516432)
This team could be put together by anyone via Guild CP. See my image, it's exactly what the GDT, as explained, would be.

No it couldn't, this would be in special guilds that is run by a global administrator that will be chosen when the team is properly formed.

Clockwork 08-20-2009 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1516474)
The majority of you either refuse to work together on the same server or don't actively wish to be involved in it yourself.

I think the majority of people are simply already committed to something. Though, just as well, a surprising amount of people that are talented developers post, but do not even really play graal anymore.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1516474)
The current global team is too small to do all of this ourselves. Two of us are not qualified as far as I'm concerned, myself included. I'm pretty sure if I edit the wiki, Graal will explode into a million insane gremlins that will eat the intraweb from the inside out. Skyld and Tig are already trying to update the wiki whenever they have spare time and TSA is semi qualified.

And the ever so quiet Xor? :p

cbk1994 08-20-2009 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch (Post 1516438)
It doesn't necessarily need to be called a "Global Development Team", for example there's this one: http://graalonline.com/guilds/viewgu...ll=0&view=info

"First of all i watn to..."

from the guild description. I seriously doubt this guy can participate in any kind of development project.

Inverness 08-20-2009 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1516473)
No, they are still free to develop wherever they wish on their own time.

That needs to be italicized and emboldened.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1516473)
So do something about it. Join the team and prove its a valuable addition. Just as a picture is worth a thousand words. Seeing a concept working on an active server is worth more than trying to explain to someone that it would work.

I am indeed interested in joining the team, and I would do it because I enjoy developing.

However, over the years I have requested simple minor features for the scripting engine and other things that have either gone unanswered or have only been implemented serverside. I do not enjoy developing on outdated platforms, and I consider Graal outdated because of the amount of time the client has gone without an update. If you, Stefan, or anyone else expects me to put more time and effort into developing, then I want to be paid with Graal updates.

These features are things that I'm sure Stefan could implement in anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. If that is not the case, then he should explain why it would take so long and when he might be able to do it if he intends to.

Edit:

On another note, if this team concept takes off methinks a documentation of development and management standards should be created. However, methinks this would mostly be for standardizing scripting practices.


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