I have VIP, not gold. It's all I need to get on my dev server, I like the difference because then I don't have to pay full price for gold, which I'm not sure I'd do if I had to.
We definatly should advertise, have google advertisements on the forums, as well as other ads on the main page.
Or maybe in game?
As for accounts, Trials should have 1 month as a full p2p, then they are 'reset' untill they upgrade. They would have a week to upgrade or they lo\ose their stuff. This would cause more of a 'rushed' feeling, causing them to be more willing to purchase it. You have to make them convinced they need to upgrade to a classic account at least. Then show them all the cool features they get with gold/vip for a month or so, and once again, take it away at the end of the month. There shoud be more in game benefits for upgrading, without limiting the classic users.
Also, put an activity thing in, like they have to go on the client at least once every few months to keep their classic account.

Or just make a new trial account. This is a bad idea.

Do that and more will quit. I for one do not wana log on a classic server, and be limited becuse I didnt shell out for the newest thing. Limit classic people all you want on gold servers on vip servers etc but not on classic servers.

Obviously they'd have to limit it to one per email, one per Ip range, comp ID, etc.
Maybe you have to register or pay for an account, and then you get one month free.
Obviously, advertising is the most important thing.

None of these are a highly secure way of preventing the creation of multiple accounts.

True :\

Okay! *cracks knuckles* Time for me to repeat myself!

I'm really glad that you're making this thread Unixmad... it's definitely a step forward.

Okay first off... the forums and classic's current content are not worth anyone reupgrading. So that should be free forever. (after the initial gold upgrade) This let's non-gold players communicate with staff and gold players, which in turn, might convince them to upgrade for whatever reason.

Next, the website issue has been addressed, but I will restate that I think you should have weekly contests for poems/comics/art/stories so that you'll get people contributing to Graal as a community, plus if you give them discounts off graal store merchandise or discounts on another upgrade, it will encourage people to submit stuff. This could be a weekly update to the site which would keep the website even more active looking. Plus when strangers come in from the outside and see the site has a lot of fan art and stuff, it's going to show that this game has fans and people dedicated enough to write stories or draw art for it.

Another big thing is staff... You've simply got to dig up some more people to handle this stuff. Support center, website, possibly a newsletter... more moderators for the forums and possibly ease up on the rules... Otherwise the forums feel very unfriendly where you can't have an opinion that a mod/admin doesn't like without being banned.

Okay... now on to the actual point of this thread... How to make money with Graal. You need more gold content. More servers. You need to get teams put together of talented people and you need to watch over them like they are your children. You get together these teams and you assign them new gold servers to make... and make sure they are active. You could possibly reward these people with free gold days for each day of work they put into the server. This is only fair seeing as how they are losing play time by working for you. Then while the servers are being made, you pull in some people from the outside to give their opinions about it... Maybe you could start by creating a website or forum poll that is multiple choice which lets people choose what sort of servers they'd like to see. (medieval fantasy, modern, futuristic, something totally different, etc)

You need someone at Stefan's level or Stefan himself to actually keep these teams in check and possibly motivate them and keep them working. You'd have quality gold servers coming out all the time. You also need to encourage professionalism with the team. Not just acting professional but making professional quality work. Not just slapping random levels and graphics together from all directions. All graphics and levels and scripts and everything about the server should stay consistent.

So anyway, the main problem is that you have 2 gold servers that aren't very active, up against a dozen + classic servers with varying levels of activity. You need to try and match the number of classic servers with Gold ones. That doesn't mean taking the badly made classic servers and forcing them to go Gold. It means starting new gold server projects.

I mean, it's silly to even ask why nobody is upgrading when all you have are two gold servers that are in specific genres. I don't like the hardcore stats based MMORPGs and I don't like the futuristic laser shooting stuff. So where does that leave me as far as gold servers? I've got no options.

I would stop worrying about Graal3D and put more focus into making more high quality and active Gold servers. Your current playerbase didn't start playing Graal because it was fancy 3D. I don't want fancy 3D Graal and I'm sure many people agree with me.

Which reminds me... stop losing focus on what Graal is about. Graal is not a 3D game and it shouldn't be. Graal is not a hub for flash games. If you want to make flash games, then make them graal related. Make chess but make it using little graal characters instead of chess pieces. Screw having a flash game lobby. Why not make a gold server that acts as a lobby for tons of Graal minigames like those? I think that would be far more interesting. You could still link the games in the lobby, just have them direct the player into that gold server. When those games came out I didn't even know they EXISTED. My account is expired and there is no listing of the games at all in my Graal game.

Also, don't base Graal's image around one server. I hate it. I don't like GK that much and yet you've changed Graal to "Graal Kingdoms". All of your merchandise minus one item is GK related. The website images, the forum... it's all GK related. I miss the fun family-oriented slash'em that Graal once was.

You could definitely get more people upgrading if there were more gold servers that people actually wanted to play. I mean you've got this great game engine and scripting language and all the tools needed to make great online games... yet you have two measily gold servers as your selling point. =/ I gave up on GK a long time ago... Because it lost it's professionalism the moment Stefan stopped focusing 100% on it. The economy was never balanced properly, staff were hired with powers and not watched over. People would abuse glitches and nothing was done about their accounts being overpowered. The one of a kind battleaxe I won in the first spar event ended up being three of a kind within a couple of months... Just things like that which ruin the experience.

I'd love to go into more detail about how Graal could do a lot better but I know you don't exactly like me or what I have to say anymore.

Actually, I think a lot of people would be willing to upgrade to gold/vip for Graal 3d. I would love to see graal go 3d. And if you allow 3d playerworlds, we'll even be better off.
Of course, you'll also need a good, easy to use, 3d level editor.

Um......How do I put this...This game just isnt as good as other games =/. The Question is probobly "why" right? Only thing I can ever think of when I compare graal to other games I play is the weak gameplay.

I think maybe you need to do some research on how to create a game with deep gameplay. How about start a thread about that and the you might just pick up a few nice ideas...that are probobly all over this thread but you seem to have completely ignored them.

Koni talks about your staff team such as Stefan but I have to say I dont care who develops graal I care about the gameplay, and gameplay is the only thing you need to bring in $USD. Sadly you dont have it IMO. Anyone else agree?

But then again you need to start a brand new server...and you need to best developers your gonna find to create it because most of these amateurs on graal just arnt going to cut it.

You need to create somthing that people love because you cant market somthing people dont love. People love Zelda but after awile when they relize this isnt a Zelda they have to start loving graal but at this moment people sure dont love graal.

..one more small word of advise...take the key notes of what people dislike about graal in this thread and then make of list of them. Then Disscuss that list with your staff team...the professional ones. I dont think any buisness could do it better than that.

This has to be the only upgrade for graal in awile that is big but the fact is its still not that big of a update. Its a update for people who choose to develop for graal more than it is for the players. The real update is if it will and can be used in a way that seems innovative. So at the moment I dont think anyone is gonna upgrade their account or buy a new account for such a thing.

If it weren't for the fact that it's not going to look that great and it's going to be based entirely around GK.

I originally upgraded to VIP for Graal3D, my subscription ran out before I got to play ;p

That's another thing... get rid of VIP. You made a lot of customers unhappy by giving them like nothing worth the extra money... A VIP subscription would usuall y mean that person gets access to new stuff frequently... but that's not the case here. Maybe VIP could be re-initiated once you have more frequent updates... Otherwise you're misleading people by making them think they will get all sorts of special perks and get to help test new stuff each month... When in reality it's like you get to test a new script function once a year, a couple of days before everyone else does.

Graal 3d is outdated now, if its the same one they shown a while ago. There are much better looking 3d games that are free and since you cant actually play the game when you look at a screenshot they move on. I really think thats one of Graals main problems people look at a screenshot say no and move on without even trying the game. Not to mention if they do a vast majority of servers arnt trail friendly. (Although nothings more annoying then someone with a trail accout that has played for a year without upgrading ::cough:: UN ::cough::.

So maybe a limit on trails that can be logged onto one server and time them like if there online for more then a hour or two it kicks them and if they rejoin there at the back of the que? It would force them to upgrade if they liked the game or get kicked over and over.

Very well put -^

But on another note Unixmad -v

Also Unixmad talking about 'new versions' 'new fees' the only games that do that actually add NEW content; WoW Burning Crusades: New Races, New Transport, New Worlds to explore, Battefield2142 Although its based on the Battlefield2 engine its totally a different game, New Transport, New Weapons, New Characters, New levels. Among lots of other games doing this theirs actually so many it will take too long to list them all but im sure everyone gets the picture except you Unixmad, you have no means of justifying more money for barely anything new. Although if you take the time to listen to your players yeah i know woah your customers actually have something to say?! Amazing discovery I'm sure you will notice they too think this is a bad idea.

And to touchbase on the new content. An expanded Z plane is an AMAZING UPDATE worth $25->$40 and charging players for this 'new content' will lead to disaster because players will get agrovated till they leave because now your gimping the content so even though for me as an example i've upgraded pacMASTA 5-6times but now you unroll this 'new content' for $40 which now i cant access inless i want to give another $25 I'm not gona go I MUST GIVE MORE MONEY FOR LITTLE CHANGE; Im gona say 'F' this Im going to go play something else.

Also I'll touch this Graal3D mater I think we may as well drop it; 2 Failed attempts going on 3 now I think the Graal3D project can be classified as a fiasco and we shall never mention it and can work on player support and the content players are actually playing; or even a means to update and manipulate this content their is no Dev support for Mac OS X or Linux really; And even the Windows tools are quite dated if you want to be a PROFESIONAL business you can't rely on your players to make the tools for you. This is your job you say you want to be treated like a profesional business but you sure as hell don't act like one. All games you can actually edit BF2, FEAR, Unreal, ETC. Give you a source developers kit and in most of the cases its compatible with all OS's when with Graal theirs only antcient tools for Windows and nothing else.

What about Ragnarok online and such, also theirs another game thats quite a bit like Graal Online but i forgot its name thats 100% free; and even with ragnarok online they dont charge for you for patchs and yes ragnarok is ALOT like Graal; Its basically 2d sprites, 3d effects, with the capability of a 3d enviorment it basically describes graal. But graal 'boasts' the means that its EASY to EDIT when in reality is extremely hard if you dont use windows and even then your tools suck.

In reality Graal Online Adminstration is just puting more and more on the table they can't even deliver and when it is finally acomplished they just add a pricetag to something that really should be free because of chages so extremely minor.

One of the major reasons that I play Graal, is, the fact that its an online 2D game. If I wanted to play an online 3D game, I would play *insert name here*.

Problem is you aren't going to really get TEAMS. And in Graals current state SERVERS is setting the pole ten times too high.

I agree new servers need to be made. But just do one and then another. One a year, as an official big project, is more than enough. Help needs to be given to projects that are good in the UC section (pick one up like with Zone).


I agree, and have said it many times. Graal 3D does not make sense. It's a waste of resources. What comes out will not be anywhere near worth or proportionate to the resources put in to make it.

There is also a free trial built into Graal already, but it hasn't been used yet.

I think the VIP subscription should be redone, and renamed Classic subscription. Perks that were originally said to be given to VIP only, should just be given to VIP (Classic) and Gold. The "free for life" classic account should go away.

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
So you basically want the game to be as empty as the forums? Genius!

Playercount will drop serverly, people don't want to pay that often for graal.
They simply need to offer more benefits for vip/gold, or maybe make there be a small cost of a classic membership, like $10 a year or something small. I'd rather see more incentive to upgrade, and more advertising...and better targeting. Lets face it, you can't be targeting younger audiences all the time.

People shouldn't have to have a P2P account to use a function that is on a classic server.

I can understand trial accounts not being able to use this, and I would understand if classic accounts couldn't use this on Gold server, but classic accounts on classic servers shouldn't miss out on anything.

Why? It's like playing a game like Counterstrike then all the sudden they go "OK YOU HAVE TO BUY THE GAME AGAIN SO YOU CAN USE THE NEW PARTICLE SYSTEM OK?"

It's just stupid. Remember, people aren't upgrading to Gold for new features, they upgrade to Gold to play gold server.

So how do you make people upgrade? Update gold servers more, add more gold servers.

But yes, the flying update is a good update. But it's 2006...what was done last year? The year before? And the year before that?

Compare Graal 2000 to Graal 2003 and it's a whole different story.

But compare Graal 2003 to Graal 2006 and hardly anything really changed that much.

No that's horrible. Then you're forcing people to pay just to play the game. They've already given classic away for anyone who has ever upgraded, they can't take that back now. It would cause a huge backlash.

Like I said, classic servers are currently not worth upgrading each year (no offense to those server owners, but it's true). Nobody is going to pay just to access the classic servers when they were once free for anyone who has upgraded before.

They need to stop focusing on all this non-graal stuff like the flash games and graal3d and focus on improving customer support, the website, gold servers, and most importantly, getting the players more involved in the community and rewarding players and all these people working hard to make content for Graal.

I can understand Unixmad's dilemma here, but he of all people should know that the majority of Graal's actual playable content is made by players. You can't expect people to pay to work. It's just not gonna last very long. You need to reward the hard working people who have spent countless hours working for Graal instead of playing it.

Really, how hard would it be to add on some extra gold account days to someone? Johnny won the art contest and gets his account name listed on the site for that week, and he also gets an extra week added to his gold account. Now don't you think that would not only make Johnny happy, but also encourage others to participate and want to upgrade to get those benefits? Of course submitting stuff for the contest would require you had a gold account, but it would be well worth it if you could get a free week added on for each time you won. And really... what is one extra week given away compared to the fact that it's going to benefit Graal so much?

I think the biggest weapon in Graal's arsenal IS the fact that they could give out free gold time as prizes. It costs Graal absolutely nothing to give someone an extra week free, and guess what? They will be happy and probably upgrade again. So wow, you give them one extra week and get a whole year's re-upgrade out of the deal. I think that's a pretty good investment.

I believe they could successfully pull off good teams of people to work on new gold servers if they offered some sort of compensation. I'm not saying money, but again, free gold time... whatever.

Also if there was to be a VIP upgrade to an account, one of the biggest features it should boast is that you'd have faster access to staff or customer support. Like your support tickets get moved to the top of the list or something. That would be nice.

We must forget about the entire new scripting Language and the move from Graal 2 -> Graal 4.. and the gui ctrls etc..

The updates might seem like nothing to you, but to me and other developers.. it's awsuem and amazing and the players benefit from it but they don't even realize it like yourself.

From 2000 to 2003 Graal had Graal2001 and GK added, many servers were changed, the playerbase completely changed, and was fun. Graal also shifts through many versions.

What happened from 2003-2006? Graal v4, RC2, Zone, Zodiac, and GS2. :/

Graal3d is really a waste of resources.

Couldn't agree more.

It may infact be necessary to abolish it, I don't know exactly how bad the financial situation is, but it would depend on that.

Of course, getting rid of Moon Goddess as forum staff would be a good idea too.

You are a very brave man.

Nice knowing you!

Such is how I became the hero of July. It really would help make money though.

You're not a hero, but you sure as hell just showed you are indeed a man.

Googi is growing up so fast, i can barely keep up! :p

GS2 is a lot bigger then what you think silly..

Not as big as anything that happened between 2000-2003. I'm talking big changes, servers going away, new ones coming, and 2 servers made by Graal Online. You already know what went on, stop being so silly.

btw if you aim me i wil tel u somthin unapropiat ^_^

I may be a bit late here, but this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

Get rid of Free for Life Classic Accounts and basically say bye to 60-70% of your playerbase.

Coldn't agree less
Brave, bold, correct.
Sorry Moonie/Unix, but not many people would pay extra to come here, unless it was more...player oriented. Hard to say without using cliches...there's too strict of moderation. Even for an official forum.
At least change the rules a bit :\

I'm starting to feel as though I'm not normal for having so few problems with the current moderation.

I'm not saying I hate them, I just have a few problems.
Including some of their logic, rules, and the enforcement of said rules.

You're not exactly a logic-bot.

This is different from other conversations about moderation. This is not about "problems" we have with the moderation, it's about how the moderation is hurting Graal's profit margins.

I do my best.
At least my logic doesn't surround a "I'm always right and morally supperior" core :\

It's too bad you're doing that for no real reason in particular. Unless you've spent the past year eating, sleeping, and breathing Graal 3D, don't act like it's not a waste of resources.
Are you kidding me? How many discussions have you been in where you take the grounds of, "Well you just wouldn't understand because you don't use mac, claim transgendered status, or something similar?" If there is a list of people who do this the most, you're in one of the top spots. OUt of everyone on this board you're probably one of the worst about making unfounded arguements.