I don't understand why you are assuming that it wouldn't work. There is no reason why the GDT cannot develop servers, if not a single server. Obviously, with how many scripters we have we wouldn't need everybody to be working on a single server. But I think that a lot of you guys are completely missing the forest for the trees, if the GDT really is about improving Graal: this game is about playerworlds, not about GS2 documentation and pre-made tools and packs.

We can throw all the resources we want into the developing pool, but it's simply not as large as it once was. It's the least rewarding aspects of the GDT, in terms of how the team can benefit Graal. People don't just come to Graal to develop. They arrive first at a game and then become developers. Focusing on making tools and guides for a small pool of developers is kind of inconsequential if players (new developers) aren't coming in.

There are servers that need to be worked on and that can be improved. At the very least, the GDT can and should step in there. If there's enough impetus and reason, the GDT can and should develop an original server. These are the things that can really help Graal. I don't think we should forget about documentation and small projects, but pigeonholing the GDT into serving only those functions simply ensures that the group remains in the same position as it is right now.

The Code Gallery is the least effective way of distributing and advertising GDT-created content. Sorry if you disagree.

My thoughts almost; I think we can exist as both a global resource and server developers.

I graduate June 12th. So long as I'm not salvaging the server (meaning, it's in good shape, so that coming and getting straight to work isn't difficult), I'm willing to help out some.

Even if you guys make a new server, what makes you think it will attract new players to this game? At best, you'd just steal players from an already existing server. Good luck, I guess.

If you absolutely insist on making a server, try to team up with Stefan and Classic iPhone and release a PC version to draw in players from the iPhone. It would be really cool if the two platforms were somehow linked (sharing stats, progress, or anything) to bridge the gap.

Scripting accounts for at least 90% of to-do work, plenty of stuff to work with as well as room for a certain amount of creative liberty with some things.

Guys, I'm seeing lots of really good ideas and really good input from everybody here, not just a few select people.

Looks to me like the biggest issue is deciding not what the GDT should be working on in terms of which specific projects they take on. Instead it looks like its more a decision of what general type of projects they should take on.

I think everybody here really needs to ask themselves should the GDT be working on:

A) Providing documentation, tutorials, starter packs, etc for up and coming developers and servers.

B) Working on small projects that will benefit Graal and make it more fun, such as Rufus' World Cup idea.

C) Working on a large scale project that would require the help of the entire team and then some, such as creating a new server or helping out an/some existing server(s) such as creating a new server or helping N-Pulse/Delteria.

I think either one of these three (or all three, but everyone knows that's probably unrealistic to hope for at this point in time,) would be a very good path for the GDT to go down at some point or another, but for right now, what needs to be focused on is getting more players to come to Graal and play it.
I know I created a thread moaning the other day, but after logging on for more than 5 minutes, I'm seeing many new players coming in from iPhone and a lot of them are spending quite a bit of time online, so there is definitely something being done right.
Anyways, back to my original point. I think that if the GDT spent some time working on some projects, such as Rufus' World Cup idea and other global events or even things for individual servers to make them more fun for players to be on would be a good idea to keep those trials who are coming in from iPhone and where ever else they come from and it would also keep the older players interested because they would have something different to do than whatever they do on their home server.

Just my opinion, but the three paths the GDT could take that I mentioned earlier seems to be what the whole thread boils down to in terms of decisions.

I agree that most important thing for Graal is new players.
I agree that a good server would be one of the major pieces in getting new players.


What does a good server require? Just off the top of my head... direction, management, resources.

So why hasn't there been a good server already? Most would argue lack of resources.


Your point seems to be that if we just shove "GDT" into the resources slot, we will get a good server. This is where I disagree.

If everyone was interested enough in a single server more than all other servers, they would have gotten together and developed it already.

But, the obvious counter-argument is that "the GDT has a command structure to make people do certain work they aren't 100% interested in". This is where my point lies. How is the management of the GDT different from a server's management? What in the GDT makes it possible to unite uninterested developers into doing something?

Nothing.


In summary...
The ideal server developers are many and willing.
The current server developers are few and willing.
The GDT are many and unwilling.

We can still utilize the GDT for small projects which don't require so much will, but not for something like developing a server.

You don't get paid for developing on Graal. So everyone has their own motivations for developing. Some people like the idea of making content for others to play and experience. Graal's draconian system of payment hinders that, along with the lack of attention from Stefan. I don't think that environment makes people feel as if their work will go anywhere.

This is basically a doom-and-gloom scenario, even if it is indeed partially truthful. If the GDT collectively are/have been totally unwilling and uninterested in doing what in theory many would argue they're there for.. then the department should simply be dissolved.

Regardless of what is or isn't at this point it's patently obvious that many of us share one thing in common: desire in some form or another to improve the community. We can all debate as we have for years which specific course of action is the best, but, alas that leaves us ultimately with meaningless banter (for which history shall judge I us I suppose). The fact of the matter is that irrespective of title, privileges, and duties any of us have, those of us who can develop well should come together and do so. This is where everyone needs to learn to be selfless. Not every idea will ever be implemented, but all who participate should rightfully take pride in -- and relish the fact that they've made a positive contribution to this 'hobby' (Graal) we all share in for whatever reason. I mean honestly think about it: if even the past three years weren't spent debating, scheming, and one-up'ing our peers and instead were spent on finishing off Delteria, NP, and improving the other classic servers where needed we'd all be a lot happier than we are now. That's simply fact, and it would've taken =< the amount of energy we've spent doing the former.

There's really no excuse and honestly I don't believe I'm the only one who sees that. Things happen, we all have lives... and for some it sucks. So what, you're still reading this post aren't you? Exactly, so how about we do something? x_x

How is it gloom-and-doom? I'm saying there isn't anything special about the GDT that suddenly invigorates everyone in it to have enough will to work on a server.

However, it DOES give us the capability to manage small groups of developers who have common interest in working on certain things.

Said this way I take no real issue. Otherwise at some point we'll end back up in the never-ending discussion of what the GDT should be. I simply don't want to go there because I am convinced it's a discussion that cannot be had.

Kind of off topic, but, just to say, if I was stefan, I'd be embarassed as **** about myself for iphone players to see these forums at all (of coarse I'd try and fix the issue :blank:).

Its not just the lack of what GDT does and doesnt do. Imo I thought GDT = Global Development Team. A GDT for gfx helped Armageddon when it needed it. I think some of them need to be removed from the list yes, because they really dont do too much of jack squat, but ranting on the matter is useless because its just not going to get fixed. Seriously, anyone realize that graal hasent had an update since like 2005, its website turned *** as all getout, and the forums are horribly organized and bashing the game everywhere (I know I do it to, just saying)?

Better to better yourself, if you are going to use either:
a:Your hard earned money
b:Your parents hard earned money
then do it yourself if you are a developer at all, you paid for the ****. Advertise your own server everywhere, because its just not going to happen by the actual game staff. Theres no real way to argue this either, otherwise Graal would still have 500-700 on at a time every so often.

Btw, World cup idea is great, and I'd love to help if needed.

dude i ran the graal olympics (for sparring) once. all it takes is some organization and support from a visible server and you can get it started yourself

@rest of the thread: so now we're all on the "creating content for graal" bandwagon which i posted about (i think) months ago. now the team has some functioning structure of rank, and the planning can finally get decided

should the GDT choose too, it would be a great goal to improve what is already there, while at the same time adding onto it. systematically by choice the GDT can move through the current visible servers - either collectively or separately - and help local staff improve or create content. clean the place up so too speak

i doubt anyone would support the GDT going so far as to create their own server (though i think it could be a cool idea) but everyone should be in all for them helping server get their content released: it isn't exactly often that something new get's onto graal

My issue has been that the attitude has been passive, like you said, when it should be active. The GDT team should be actively trying to help, not just waiting for someone to ask them to help. I've asked Soala several times if there's anything I can help with (but I think he was busy at the time) and I offered my help for the World Cup project, if it gets off the ground.

Another advantage to a project like Graal Olympics (or the World Cup) is that all content produced can be released for free use. People can learn from the scripts or use them for their servers, and there's always a need for graphics. I've never seen a soccer event on Graal with decent goalposts before.

I disagree with your reasons for disagreeing. Most servers fail not for lack of an idea and direction, but lack of a decent developing team and management skills. If we "shove the GDT" at a server, and those people are interested in developing a server, then the largest roadblocks to server development are gone. I've never said the GDT is a magical group that can create the best servers ever seen. But we are supposed to be a group of some of the best developers on Graal, so why the hell are sitting on our asses and not utilizing this supposed talent to its fullest extent?

Because people just miraculously realize that they all want to create the same server and that they should all get together and work on it, right? How can we ever know if people are interested, when we can't even talk about it?

What you're doing is stopping any conversation from starting, because you assume that the GDT could never, ever have members interested in developing a server, nor could it ever be organized and cohesive enough to do so. If that is the case, then wtf are we doing here? Why are we discussing doing anything larger than the projects we've already released, when we should be discussing who to cut out, because they lack the will and interest to go beyond the current level of output?

If the GDT exists to serve only that function, then I don't really see the point in having it be any kind of officially sanctioned group.

What is 'actively trying to help', though? You can't force people to accept help. Are you talking about advertisements? Even if we advertise, we're still dependent on being asked to help.

What's stopping GDT members from working on a server as a normal developer? Not as a part time helper, swooping down from the heavens with assistance, but actually developing a server.

You missed my point, I think. What I'm trying to say is that skilled developers (i.e., GDT) are not necessarily good developers in the context of making a server.

For the people who ARE interested, they can go help any server, no one is stopping them (in fact it is already suggested to go help). But the whole concept of assigning the GDT to a server by definition means making the non-interested people do work, which they won't.


The reason why I think it is better to play it safe rather than try to "utilize the talent to its fullest", is because failed projects are terrible. Not only for the GDT as a whole but for every developer that worked on them -- it's about one of the most demotivating things possible to see all your work go down the drain or be put "on hold" for a couple years.

It is clear when there is enough will to go work on a server. It's the type of will that you usually don't need to "pitch the idea" to someone because they already would have been thinking of doing it on their own, or already started.

Any other sort of incentive (e.g., "oh, it'd be fun to build systems from the ground up", "it'd be cool having a sandbox where I can create stuff") simply is not enough, at least that is what I believe through what I have seen in personal experience; those people tend to loose motivation half way through. You may disagree on this but I can't really convince you on this point as it is based on my experiences.


The reason this thread is good is because the GDT is currently doing nothing. This does not mean it needs to try and do the hardest thing possible. There are many possible small projects that the GDT would clearly excel in, and many have already been suggested.


Because that function is impossible without an officially sanctioned group, and that function is needed.

Lol, delteria has been wanting quality help for how long? Npulse has needed it for how long? And other servers I'm sure would take up the help. Thats when you ACTIVELY help, get on there and do it. Advertising isn't needed, theres an obvious need on plenty of servers. Being active, not just sittin around till someone begs you enough, or happens to find you.

Regardless, like I said in my previous post, this discussion on this is pointless.

Looking for something to do, instead of waiting for someone to come ask them.

I think what would make most sense is for GDT management to coordinate with servers that need help and set up a number of projects that GDT members can do... documentation and tutorials could be one of these projects. Then as a GDT member you would simply need to always be assigned to and actively working on 1 or 2 projects.

This way individual members wouldn't need to ask around everywhere for work, and it would also serve as a way to make sure everyone is actually doing useful stuff.

If you don't want to actively help people, gtfo of GDT.

...just a thought, but wouldn't it be better if you ask servers if they need help, rather than wait to be asked. If it's been this long and you havn't been requested to do anything then I'd its about time that your start touting for work.

You my friend, are the smartest person here.

So, everybody needs to simultaneously and independently be thinking about developing a server (with generally the same idea for it), and then suddenly just coalesce and realize that they all are thinking about it... and then spontaneously start all on their own? I'm not understanding how anybody is supposed to tell if other people are interested without pitching the idea. ...

A GDT that only does small things is a GDT that is largely inconsequential to the success of GraalOnline as a whole. You can only help so much by releasing packs and writing documentation. But whatever -- you're right that we probably won't ever convince each other of our views. I only hope that, either way, the GDT becomes more than what it is right now, because it's already stuck in obscurity.

That's certainly one way to go about doing it, more preferable to be sure.

This is how it should go down, there's just too much risk involved if GDT puts all it's eggs into one basket. It'd also help if they discussed what each individual would like to be doing, and derive projects from that instead of just being pitched at the group, there's already been lots of public input of what people like to see happen so now it's just organization and following through with solid project plans.

No. Much easier way, if youre a global developer team member, help globally develop and go on a server yourself and just ask if they need help, it takes like to energy to do that at all really. Or, look for the desperate attempts to make "hiring" threads for all the servers on these forums, since most GDT are on here a lot anyways. Each GDT member should be searching out servers to do their job. They are a team, a group even, but they don't have to magically work together all at once. Obviously some servers only need certain things.

But, like many have mentioned in and out of this thread, the two main ones that were already classic should ALREADY have been saved by GDT, Npulse and Delteria.

That is completely unrelated to what we were arguing about.

Lol, you're bright. I was answering what 'actively trying to help' is. Think. -_-


pretty freakin obvious. Still not what you guys are talking about? :sigh:

Actively trying to help is getting off your ass and going to see if anyone needs help. 3rd time to say it now.

Thread is pretty much reached its limit. It's now simply a looping argument. o.o

Above ^

If you were answering that question, why did you quote a post about the GDT creating its own server? ;) Think. -_-

Lol, I said nothing whatsoever about GDT creating their own server. Think. -_-

Just to add, there are multiple posts about them doing that in here, so its definitely in the conversation. And, the only quote I ever put in a post on this thread was a quote from you, lol.

Mostly because certain people in this thread are idiots and can't understand simple concepts.

The GDT should help out era dev get out a bit faster since we are kinda on a tight schedule.

The GDT isn't here to be development slaves, but if you need a little extra push then there should be some people that are interested. You'd need to outline what needs to be done though, clearly.

I wasn't implying that they needed to be development slaves. I meant just a little help here and there, just a little bit of help just to get things rolling.

Hey, lol, you quoted a post by me talking about the GDT creating a server (lol). You proceeded to say that the easier way for somebody to know if the GDT is interested in creating a server is... by going out and helping servers. I responded that your comment was completely unrelated to the discussion I was having. Lol. You then went and insulted me. LOL.

But whatevs. All that needed to be said has been said... not that anything new has been said by anyone. (Except for Rufus' FIFA idea!) I'm only responding because I'm bored out of my mind, waiting for my pants to dry. And waiting for Delteria's to-do list to be posted. So, maybe it is time for the post to be locked or something. :cool:

Like what?

So far I'm seeing it this way, from both sides.

GDT:

I don't want to be bothered to help people with development, let me make tutorials on my own time whenever I get around to it.

Others:

Please help us with some development, or maybe collaborate to make a simple server?

Hey, I'm GDT, and I'm agreeing with the "others." Inverness is just stubborn.

if gdt created a server wouldnt change expect if its any good stefan will just put it on gold i personaly think graal should go back to its old ways like example no gold or vip simply if u want to play certain servers u might have to pay like 3 bucks a month like back in the day some servers had coins stack icon beside it meaning u pay to play also have some free servers like un and era and classic also if a server complete there server should be able to go classic even if its similar ideas at most old graal almost every server was a like in some way before era came along