more like classic and g2k1, where the player population of each server was massive. you really think that servers like UN or zodiac are of those caliber, or any server where it was not just the community of people that made it awesome? you can't beat the ability the owner has over the developers

and back then, people bought accounts for those servers, not to develop. do you know how many more players there are than developers?

I think the forums gets that you think Graal was so great back then.. but this thread is about developers, developing for free not bringing up nostalgia.

Also, you can't really compare the "caliber" of servers of the past to the servers now, those were different times, different playercount, etc.

That is probably because the web site was terribly constructed.

You also kind of do realize a good portion of graal's playerbase doesn't develop? That's because they're not supposed to. Graal is advertised as a game--It's this style of thinking that has made Graal's playercount fall to a fifth of what it used to be 4+ years ago. Most of the servers now suck, and not the least bit enjoyable for a new player, and people don't have to develop just to enjoy this game or even pay for it.

Most of hiro's posts have been in the correct style of thinking from a consumer's point of view for graal so I am taking his side on this. Sorry if I misunderstood anything, but I am speaking out of my perception of the matter.

I do happen to think the purpose of this thread has went off in a tangent. Yes I do wish I did not have to pay to help some UC servers out, but apparently this hasn't been the case for years. I'd pay the 25 yearly thing for the previously known vip package, but that doesn't exist anymore. But y'know theyre not making more money off the quality of their game, so they gotta charge more somewhere.

i don't need the forums to tell me if it was awesome - i was there, i know what happened. it was better in my opinion, and i'm sure others share my opinion. i'm not trying to just bring up nostalgia - i'm making a point that if the player's are going to make the content, then they need to be supported 100 percent by CJ - or CJ should make the content themselves, and this i would prefer

it' very true that ever since graal took the standpoint of being a "development platform" after the boom of people wanting to develop servers, the population has been in decline, and most of the people who play graal are not optimistic about anything happening on graal at all - everything is stagnate

I think Stefan treats Graal as a development platform, that's what he updates it as, and he has already said he: doesn't plan on making it a full-out game; or making a lot of money from it (which I think are correlated).

Being a "development platform", I would expect even greater emphasis on updating the tools that we need to develop, yet I've seen virtually no updates in several years.

sounds guude

Who cares? RC works. GraalEditor works. GraalShop works. If these tools weren't good enough, we wouldn't have any servers.

This is what I don't really understand. These tools work just fine. You're just upset that they don't work the way you want them to. Well, you know, you deal with what you're given. If you don't like, if you can't use the tools, then don't develop. The likelihood of you stopping is nil, though, because the tools do work well enough for people to make servers.

It's okay to ask for features. But, hell, you make it sound like you're being neglected; like you can't develop at all.

I would hope that there are a lot more players than developers, otherwise the whole development community wouldn't be doing its job... It doesn't change the fact that GraalOnline is a development platform, though. The whole goal for developers is to create a game that people like, using the tools we've been given to create that game.

You've paied, more then once I assume, for the tools you have been given. That does not give you any right what so ever to demand more tools, all you can do is ask for them.

It's simple really - if you don't like what there is already, then DON'T pay.

Fake argument.
You don't throw the television out of your window because you don't like one show.

yes but it isn't enough to say that "graal's now a development platform" as a way to get out of making content. the complaining about the updates for the tools and such are just an example of graal trying to transition over to something it never exactly was - we didn't always think of graal in these terms, and i'd go as far to say that we shouldn't think of it as such. we are losing players, so how exactly is the development community doing it's job? also, there will always be more players than developers in the first place - it isn't an indication of a community doing well when there are more players, that should be a given fact - the indication is how many new players are coming in, which has been on the decline ever since graal started focusing more on development and other projects instead of graal itself, and relying heavily on the small group of developers to provide everything

i realize that as staff and a developer you feel inclined to defend the position of power that developers have been given in graal, since they are now the main focus of CJ in terms of updates and support. but i don't see how this means that players themselves should stop being supported. why support the minority of pessimistic idealists when there could be a lot done for the majority of dedicated players? graal could still be treated as a development platform while still supporting content and updates for the players themselves, and the argument that "client updates are for players" is plain bull****, especially since that's all they're receiving, and especially since this isn't how things were done for a long time and the changing focus has obviously hurt the community of graal

Graal hasn't been a game in and of itself since Playerworlds came out, buddy-o. When it became the responsibility of playerworld developers to make games, Graal became a development platform. How successful Graal is depends wholly on how successful each playerworld is, which further depends on the developers that work for it. Graal's success, for the most part, does not rely on frequent updates from Stefan. When developers get it in their mind that they cannot develop without frequent client updates, or frequent engine updates, then that's when quality of gameplay goes down, including the playercount. It has to be like this, because the "game" is actually each "playerworld", not the client itself. This is how it's been for a little less than a decade. It's nothing new.

If anything, it's those developers' faults that the playercount isn't increasing, coupled with the increased costs of upgrading an account. But if the content was worth paying for, then people would pay for it. Since developers are the content makers, as they should be on a development platform, it's their fault if people aren't upgrading their account. If upping the price means upping the quality of content, then so be it; developers need to get their asses in gear and start doing something new and worth paying for. That's not to say that prices aren't outrageous. But arguing about prices isn't going to change them, so the focus needs to shift on making the content worth paying for.

To do that, Stefan does need to do some things. I have faith that he's doing them. The problem for most developers is that he's not releasing those things fast enough.

I hope you're starting to understand, though, that developers are the ones who give content to the players, not GraalOnline. GraalOnline provides the client, developers provide the game. It's that simple. Whatever server it that you play, is the server you need to start demanding updates from. If you start demanding tons of content from GraalOnline, then developers are going to get short-changed, and the outcome is going to be a situation worse than what it was before you demanded the content.

:confused:

and once again, you only perceive the problem from a developer's point of view, and it's obvious to me that you have never been an actual player of graal, despite what you might retaliate and defend otherwise. you act as if CJ has never created content before, and that the game has never focused on the player before, and that just isn't true. you also act like the players are satisfied with what's out there, or that it is somehow the fault of the developers that there is no leadership or direction. i don't think you realize the extent of stefan's influence on the game, both to the players and to developers

Haven't seen any of this influence for a few years now, except for the people who go stupid/annoying when he logs on RC.

I am a developer, after all.

Years 1-3 of playing.

Then playerworlds came out.

It's pretty evident that some aren't.

Exactly what kind of leadership and direction do you want? All you people ever post are lofty requests, that can never be fulfilled because they're so vague and inaccessible. Are you wanting Stefan to drop everything and create a playerworld for you? What?

currently i'm waiting for him to at least address the problem publicly, or to post something hinting as to what CJ is even doing right now

honestly, i want any leadership and direction since we don't have any at all. it doesn't even have to be stefan, it could be any developer who's wise enough to pull it off, whatever "it" is. currently, i don't see anyone stepping forward to make a difference, nor do i see anyone from CJ stepping up to address the problem. "you people" who constantly defend the position that graal is in seem to think that graal will just magically pull itself out of the rut by some divine developing community power, while the players (who are pretty much powerless since they can't develop) complain that nothing is being done, or opt for humble indifference towards graal

the sad thing is i already tried making a thread to promote a developer's circle of individuals who could brain storm a project to help revive graal, with the premise being that we were on our own and that it is our problem to solve. no one stepped forward, no one thought it would work, the thread ended up being locked because of the different topics it brought up. now when i try to advocate that CJ should take the problem and mold it into a solution, you tell me that it isn't their responsibility nor has it ever been - well then when are you of the developing community going to do something about it? you're still paying to develop but you aren't trying to save the game at all?

Because it's the developers job to pay for Graal and make it, as CJ profits, amirite?
I think that's enough reason to be upset about no upgrades regarding the game itself or the tools used to create it.

A lot of developers have their own projects (I am working on Zodiac V2), we don't need someone who played Classic/G2K1/whatever server 5-8 years ago to stop what we're doing and create some server that will have the same effect comparable to the release of old servers in the past.

Do I think my project is going to revive Graal? Frankly I don't care, I only care about my own server, and attempting to please whoever may play it. I have to assume the playercount will be around for when I want to release but it's not something that you can expect to get done in a month.

Now.. Our current tools work, however they're extremely outdated but they can be improved in Graal v6 when developing tools will run out of Graal itself, allowing for scripted improvements, and personalization (I hope).

I took over Maloria since I want to create something unique and lasting for Graal, that will have high enough quality to be able to be advertised on the Internet. To achieve something like that doesn't take one night, and I'm personally not one to release half-assed content or be satisfied with decent work when I know something better can be done.

Player complain when they don't see updates? Of course they do, but just because they don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

All you need to have is faith in the project you're working on, and in the people working with you. Sadly a lot of projects never see their finished result, due to the majority of developers not being able to stick with things for more then a week.

I'm sure Hiro only wanted to gather developers interested in that genre of a playerworld, so need to slander someone.

I'm also sure that Hiro, as well as myself, is speaking out that the content produced now isn't fulfilling enough to suffice good gameplay, and if the servers' management cant help that, then CJ should at least come in with a few proposals for raising the activity. I'm always supportive of playerworlds, but lately they are lacking and I think they need to head something up. Even the premium servers are lacking. Graal itself now cannot stand unless the management of the game decides to make a few changes

i don't think i ever mentioned stopping your projects to make a different one, or to somehow mold your project into one that will revive graal. that's your own prerogative, and if you don't care enough to make it into such a project then that's just another server to cross off my list of hopes. i don't see why you wouldn't want a server with comparable results to the ones created by CJ, but maybe that's just me

i'm glad you don't want to release half-assed content, that's awesome and i support that fully. but why does that mean that no information, no updates on the project itself could be given? why must players be in the dark about a server like maloria, or client updates from stefan? it's not that hard to post a thread about a project, and update that thread every time there's enough of a cause to do so. having faith in graal projects is like having faith in a god, where you hope that it's going to be real and it's a miracle when some evidence of it appears, but then when it never comes and promise of new gods are brought to light who will bring us wonderful things, you end up not believing at all

Sooo....
my thread was hijacked =(
Free-developing on servers that are staff-only? Possibly some kind of package where you purchase developer slots?? Honestly, I think it would improve Graal tremendously.

As some of you have said, it is the developers job to make the game, not CJ...however, very few developers are willing to upgrade anymore, and I'm willing to bet most of Graal's money is coming in from people who PLAY the game, not people who develop.

OGCC Thread (only major updates, and quite outdated by now): http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=82848
Major updates/hirings: http://www.maloria.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9
Staff devlogs: http://www.maloria.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53


There are plenty of information, and people who would be interested in finding out about them can do so quite easily.

now that's awesome, and should be copied

Damn those players who are too stupid to be having fun when you have put so much effort into your system scripts! It is all their fault that Graal is going downhill~

Actually, yes. That's the basic business model for development platforms, turn-key operations, etc.

You didn't mention having people stop your projects, but you did mention pooling developers together to create some G2k1 revival. That would mean developers giving up their projects.

Look, this may come as news, but I honestly doubt that these old servers would be popular if revived. Nostalgia is best as nostalgia.

What I've been trying to say this entire time is that you need to take your concerns about content to playerworld staff. There's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, demanding that Stefan make an amazing server to make up for (what you seem to think are) mediocre servers. Client updates are nice, but you don't play because you like the client updates. You play because you like the servers.

yea, i never mentioned a g2k1 revival either. stop trying to put words in my mouth - i chose those servers for a comparison in the example i used, mostly comparing the populations and life span of the servers, and because they were created by CJ. i don't think reviving old projects will work or has worked - i already tried it with doomsday and it crashed and burned just when it was almost ready to be released. i don't see why you would be so against stefan creating a new server, or why it couldn't be his "responsibility" if he wanted it do be. most of graal, developers and players alike, would be amazed and happy at the proposition of stefan creating a server, and people would have faith in it since it's the creator making content. it would be a huge deal instead of just another person trying to make another useless server

Stefan isn't a computer. Surprising, I know, but just play along with me. If he's making a server, that means less time working on the client and the engine. So, you get yourself a server, but no client or engine updates. A few months down the road, you come to "Your opinion" forum to let everybody know how angry you are that Stefan is working on some server, instead of more important things like client and engine updates. So, he starts working on those, which means less time on the server. I hope you can see where I'm going with this... ;)

i hope you see that players don't care about the client and engine updates, they want content updates

and that the people upgrading are players...there's no way in hell Graal is getting its money from developers.

exactly, i'm glad someone understands this who also develops (8

Well, ironically, we actually are paying them.

There's no way Graal is getting the majority of its money from developers upgrading just to develop...most of its money has to be coming from players. Developers are really running short...something needs to be done to bring them back, and hopefully encourage new developers to join as well.

That is what this thread is about >_<

I've been gathering some statistics on Era, and I've found that 1429 unique accounts have logged on in the last 7 days. 651 of those have more than 100 hours of playing time, and 505 of them were Graal# accounts. People are definitely paying to play.

If CJ isn't going to be developing anymore servers, and the task is indeed left to us, then why not give us easier ways to do so (such as not requiring us to upgrade just to work on UC servers)?

Uh, yeah. That's my point. ^^ So, go to your server and start demanding updates.

Well, the way I see it is that prices didn't increase arbitrarily. If Stefan and Unixmad are just trying to make ends meet, they wouldn't hike up prices for no reason. I have faith that didn't do that. So, we have to assume that costs rose, and we have to assume that people upgrading their accounts to work on UC servers helps zero out the balance sheet (accounting terms, but you get the idea).

If people no longer have to upgrade their accounts, then that stream of revenue is going to have to come from somewhere else.. meaning basic account upgrade prices are going to increase, or servers are going to be more expensive to rent, or both.

For every yin, there is a yang. For ever dollar UC developers don't have to pay, regular players or server owners are going to have to pay an extra dollar.

Needless to say, there are 6 servers developers can work on, without having to upgrade... if they have Lifetime Classic, anyways. Valikorlia is always looking for LATs and GATs. :)

:rolleyes:

It is possible to work on 8 servers with lifetime classic if you count both Graal Kingdoms and Zone.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I would want to assume they would make their money for uc worlds off how much people pay anyways. If they want to make ends meet somewhere, they could always hike up the price of a playerworld a bit and let the uc worlds be loginable for staff.

Also, I'm sure there are plenty of people whose interests lie in something different than the 6 classic servers you speak of.