I'm talking script-wise, man.

Actually really like your idea about the scratch part Thor.

Have some of the old levels in the center of classic restored and build from there is my standpoint.

Aren't these systems default?
It worked before 2005, there's no reason it wouldn't work now.

This time if Thor doesnt he will be removed. If no one wanna take his place classic will be erased. If storm doesnt wanna help, he'll prob. be removed pretty fast.

And that's when zip will strike

i will stand behind zip for manager

are you quitting or what?

do you need a ****ing spotlight on you 24/7 to avoid killing yourself?

i quit yesterday you retard

then why are you still here crying

im not i am merely supporting ziplock.

I was going to make a separate thread, but I guess the content fits better in this one.

What should be looked at right now as far as the server goes is whether it's more valuable as a server SLOT or a revitalization/rebirth project. Simply put, is it better to use this opportunity to continue the attempt to "fix" Classic or sink the toxic island and use this chance to make something entirely different?

A few of us foresaw this turn of events (ie: Classic as a server beyond fixing/redeeming). It's something of a vicious cycle. Lack of desirable content and/or player connections cause players to migrate to another server or leave Graal altogether, which in turn feeds that same fire. Classic itself didn't evolve disasterously; it was neglected as far as shaping where it should have headed. In my opinion, it was a cancer. It grew and grew with no beneficial or positive guidance and direction. The whole "too many chiefs and not enough indians" consistency also had a vastly negative impact on the server, as well as people who wanted to be the Jesus of Classic in its slump for the personal recognition. If those negative factors can be gutted out and avoided completely, the server itself, no matter where it's headed, has a chance of coming back strong.

I agree with what Midi said in the other thread. I feel that only with a completely different batch of developers and leadership can bring about positive change. It's a much bigger feat than it sounds, but like Midi said, if it can't be done, then it can't be done. The Classic of 2009 was on borrowed time anyway, and it seemed like only the people that have no stake in it at all were able to see that.

If the only value the server has is its SLOT, then why not give it to someone or a team that can make something positive out of it? Maybe have a competition bid and have someone else make something entirely different with their own team.

^^
(^That's my gift to you, Stryker)

terazel has some pretty compelling points....
i think that what classic needs right now is a week or two to sort itself out and then things will become a little clearer as to which way we need to go once the dust starts to settle. as far as i know, all of the current admins are currently making plans to jump ship (with the exception of the managers of course but that's a different matter), but not in a completely irresponsible way.

We assume you're talking about yourself =)

Ohhhh okay THOR so now we are good for ideas? so all of a sudden when classic has passed its expiring date we are good for ideas?
So all this time, in 5 years, where the players have made TONS of good ideas and no one ever listened, not you not storm, now we are good for ideas for the future of graal?
So the one(s) in particular Storm that have left the server for dead now need the ideas of players to bring it back to track?
NO! it's time for you and master storm to both step down. Like you said, there's a life outside Graal. If you can't dedicate time nor will for a server like classic, it's time to pack your bags. You people have had 5 years of time to make something out of it, and the best part is that you saw this moment coming, and guess what, now you and master storm want to re-build stuff, and lemme guess , when its done you guys are the all time saviours of reviving classsic out of a ****dump? right.
Get to steppin boys, your time has come just like classic.
We need new men, as soon as possible. I support people like maximus to do something for this server and someone capable enough to lead the group. Not some pussies that we have right now who can only pull a finger at eachother when they are themselve to blame.

Anyway if we start from scratch make sure users keep their records.

Please understand that if they dont deilver this short period they will most likely be fired. If they are fired classic will most likely be erased. Yes people had millions of ideas, there's been a solution / player. No one has agread on what to do and no one took charge bc it's "everyones" server unlike the rest of the servers. I don't buy the 5 years crap, YOU had 5 years why didn't you do something productive other than waiting 5 years to yell at people? Please shut it and start scripting, if you cant, learn it. Then you can do something about it.

That's what they said the last time.

As far as I know higher up staff seems very serious and classic hasn't been taken off the serverlist before off what i recall. Thing is no one will play if nothing happens now, and i dont think the server will be put up to the serverlist without major change. Only thing making that happen is stefan if he wants to be sadistic and prolong the suffering.

Time for epicness.

Ok look. Classic is like the Detriot Lions right now, the first NFL team to ever go 0-16 in a season. Neither of us can be any worse than we already are, outside of being removed. The Lions decided to gut the team, draft a franchise QB with the first pick in the draft, and start over. Classic needs to do the same.

Storm has failed. Perhaps the understatement of the century, but it's true. He's had years to try and make classic better, but instead we have slowly been on a course to destruction. He's done some nice things during his time (am I being too kind here?), but clearly it has not been enough. It's time for change.

Thor has only been around for 3 or so months in the manager position. I don't know everything he's done in the past few months, but it wouldn't be right to completely judge him yet due to the horrid condition the server + dev team has been in recently. Thor is a good scripter and a hard worker from what I've seen, though I don't know how good of a manager he can be.

All of that being said, here's my thoughts. Just like the detriot lions, we need to gut the server + staff and start over. We need to find a franchise quarterback (quickly, like within a week or two,) get some pieces around him, and move forward. I don't know who the new manager should be, whether it be thor or one of the other ppl who have thrown their name in the hat. Regardless, we're going to have to find someone and make sure it's a good pick. Once we have a new manager, we need to get some new admins for some of the other staff teams, because inactive admins really hinders the team. Once we have a staff assembled, we need to decide on the direction the server should take and work towards it.

As for what direction we should take, I have a few ideas. There are a lot of reasons classic sucks and has sucked for a while now, but we can only fix a few at a time. The overworld is simply too large and most of it goes unused since most of it is useless. A downsize is needed, but we must be careful because if we downsize too much, it could leave us with not enough to do outside of events. My suggestion would be to cut out everything outside of the mountains that surround the NE and NW of the main island. This means we'll lose all 3 islands, tons of unused houses on the outskirts of the server, and tons of ocean that we can't traverse. From that point, we'll need to start upgrading what is left, specifically with the towns. The problem with classic is that people never leave graal city because there is nothing to do except idle and chat with people when events aren't being hosted. Even during events, there isn't always a competitive drive to try to slaughter everyone and win; many times people idle and chat rather than fight their hardest.

So how do we correct this? First off, we need to give each city it's own identity and purpose. Don't put the same buildings (bowling alley, for example) in multiple cities. Give people a reason to visit and stay at each city. Rather than have guildhouses way out in the wilderness, have them near/inbetween cities. Rather than have quests out in random gnome tunnels and castles, put them in cities. Second off, we need to make travel faster in between cities. We could do one of two things: 1) return the warp jewels so we can warp from city to city, or 2) put a horse stable next to each city. Both options have pros/cons, so the new manager would have to decide which would be better. (Another idea I had was to have a KoM-like "heaven" area which you get warped to for 20 seconds each time you die. After the time had passed, you could warp to any city like with the KoM bases.) Once each city had some value and travel was made quicker, we would have to add tons of quests: small, medium, and large ones. My time on UN has shown me that even easy quests entice players to explore the server in search of them. Rather than spending months on one quest that the entire playercount will finish in a week, we need to keep adding lots of quests as we slowly expand the overworld.

Once the overworld is cut down, the towns are upgraded, travel is faster, guild houses are made attack-able, and quests are added, we can release the server to the masses. A revamped GC team, FAQ team, and GP team will be needed to help out during the first few (hopefully) busy weeks. How long will all of this take? Well, depending on how quickly we get a new manager and a direction is set, I guesstimate we can have it done by september or october.

Well, there are my thoughts. I don't know whether a conversion to straight up default would be best for the server (though apparently it would be far easier to scripters,) nor do I know how long that will take (many months, apparently.) I'm sure some of you will find fault with my ideas, which is another problem classic has had: too much arguing and not enough action. It's hard for a bunch of people to come to an agreement on things, but this is one of those times where we need to get it done. Classic is simply not going to survive if we don't get working in a new direction pretty soon.

it's time current staff acts as a mentor and teach the people who are willing to help an hand to make the best out of this server.
If we don't unite we'll die. It's as simple as that. The first idea is to gather a small team that are willing to learn the basics. A team that that has common knowledge. And last the team of superiors who watch over the tasks.
Then we will need ideas for the server to be made.

classic under a different management would have to use systems different from the current, i can say that immeadiately. the two managers now are the only two people left that know fully how classics systems are scripted and how to script with and around them.

its no coincedence that their inactivity has slowed down the ability of progression, contentwise. there is simply a vast lacking of scripting manpower when they only log in twice a week, and usually don't script when they do log in.

While I fully expect this to fall on empty ears I will say it anyway. Enough is enough, this infernal bickering is to end here and now. (Too bad thats actually an impossible feat to accomplish.) For the sake of Classic's future, I have put it as Under Construction and will remain in full control of the server until such time as its ready to be rereleased. This was done so that focus will remain solely on development alone and we stop wasting time worrying about GC's, GP's, FAQ's and Managers. I have made myself deadly clear to everyone involved in the restoration of Classic that nobody is beneath my removal of them. I have flat out said "If you don't have the time, willpower or energy to contribute then get out so someone else can."

While Thor and Storm are still the official managers they are still both having to answer to me. If they don't produce one or both of them will be gone. I will not micromanage but their sole purpose is to formulate a plan and implement it. I will not be manipulated by well thought out but empty promises. There will be no current administrators kept in their positions due to their time on the server. Each and every one of them have agreed to step aside if they were holding back any progress and not contributing to the server moving forward. If I have to, or if they feel there is a need, I will make the server staff only in order to keep things moving in a forward pace so the development staff is not having to respond to complaints of no visible changes.

Its already been decided that the server needs to be smaller to start out. That those areas first reintroduced should be devoid of empty space with nothing to do but wander aimlessly hacking bushes. Do not expect to see Classic restored in some miraculous timeframe of 2 weeks. Its not going to happen and instant gratification is not going to benefit the server in the long term anyway. Terezal pretty much hit it on the head when he said

Its time to put aside personal grievances and work toward a common goal. Bring back the server that was the flagship of Graal. One that included exploration, quests, guild rivalries and community.

One last thing, you cannot have a pre npc server. Its not going to happen, it won't be supported by Stefan so forget it. Those days are gone.

I love how people think being a manager of a server like Classic is such an easy case. There is soooo many differing thoughts/arguments of where Classic should go, and in the end, I'm scared Classic might fall in the wrong hands of corruption.

Thor has been Manager for 3 months, and dev for a good while before then. Instead of placing the blame on Thor, why don't you place it on Master Storm? He is currently not at the necessary qualities to be a manager, and should step down to developer considering he is 85 percent responsible for where Classic is now. As for Thor, I'd still give him a chance. Thor has had quite a few ideas including this one, since he started being Manager, which no one really wants to fathom about. He's been busy temporarily for the last bit, but still manages to come on almost every night. I think DC was overexaggerating both the managers not helping in the quest. Usually it's Master Storm I have to wait on to finish something. I don't think replacing Thor would be the best solution for now. UC is probably the best time to turn Classic around completely since it was Master Storm who is currently the person who arbitrates what can happen on his dev server, and now big changes can happen on the server itself, then the dev server. This is also the chance to revive GC and change it around, so no it should not only be for the development purposes as GC was entirely ****ed before. Why am I this mad at storm? He hasnt logged on in a week for ****s sake.

Also, I want to see where these "fresh new set of developers" fall from. That's such a flawed logic because you won't even find a this new set of developers looking at Classic's condition.

This is

all us skilled developers decided **** off we aren't helping if you dont let us LOL and also i've got a restraining order against me on classic. i'm gonna commit my dev skills to vampiro.

We're never going to have a large, super-brilliant dev team. What we need is a committed, efficient dev team that actually gets work done in a decent amount of time. I don't expect miracles or monuments, but I do expect assembly line-like production that keeps churning out decent work.

I'm glad that you finally took the appropriate action to push the focus of the server itself to the top. I think one of the biggest problems as far as player-wants is that there are people who want to see the past, the people who want to maintain the status quo, and the people who want the server to evolve beyond the original. Putting the server in UC status would hopefully allow each option to be explored to see what would work and what wouldn't, without excessive interference. And yes, some of us older players won't ever see the mental utopia of Classic of the Old again. It was more than just the server, as many people have pointed out before. I think it's time that management (current or future) take the server to the next level, take some chances, and throw in stuff that's out of the "Classic" norm. Tyhm took that plunge before despite criticisms and oppositions, and in the end he's remembered as one of our greatest.

What I would like to see is more focus on warfare that would become player-sustaining to a degree. Not exactly what was thought up for the original Nations and the attempted Nations revival, but something different and less complex. Territories being the incentive for groups to band together to defend and gain, while still maintaining the staple diet of quests and traditions such as movement and weapons. Gladius' idea about focus on different areas would fit right into a territories kind of gameplay; perhaps giving players more of an identity beyond guilds and into cities they occupy and call home (as Avalon was mine and Kraken's, among others).

To that end, I feel that the focus on GC in the past became detrimental to the server. As the original GC Admin, the goal I had laid out before was to use events (in coordination with LAT) to provide extra activities and GC-managed/ran interactive mini-quests to keep the population entertained, involved, and active while LAT rolled out their masterplan of NPCWs, quests, and new areas to explore piece by piece. It was never meant to be the pillar to hold up the server.

That's just what I'd personally like to see and what would bring ME back as a regular. Players really need to figure out what would retain them to the server and what they want to see/do in the long run.

I'm glad as well.

I like this thought, as for a while I've tried to figure out how to make guilds want to leave their protective forts and go and capture stuff. Places like MoD fort are obviously capturable, but unless a guild goes there and masses "we have mod fort," it is never used. Even then, capturing it gains you nothing; no bonus, no reward outside of some shallow sense of satisfaction. I don't know exactly what kind of reward could be offered for capturing territories, but I think it would help promote guild activity. Likewise, guild gates need to be destroyable, but only when 3 or more members of a guild are online (capturing a base with no online members is kind of lame.) A bonus for capturing enemy bases would be useful as well, though again I don't know what it could be.

First of all delete the new quests they are horrible, same goes for the bosses.
Who came up with that stuff? X.x

Take back the old favorite quests (the ones people enjoyed the most) and then
make new quality quests xD come up with fun items to collect add some
secrets every here and there (some might lead to quests maybe) that could
make the game more interesting.

Also make use of the tileset make a thought out desert place, lava place ect
for variation with custom baddies and monsters, use Draenins guide if you cant
think of anything decent http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=56

One problem I've seen is past dev admins have actually tried to make too much structure for guilds. What happened to the days where guilds took things into their own hands. They needed no incentive to take over anything. They would just decide one day that level 14 for example was theirs and destroy anyone that happened to wander into their territory.

Sort of reminds me of toys, they've evolved to eliminate the use of imagination. Instead of a player using their imagination to do something, they want it all layed out for them with a set of rules. There was never an additional incentive to take over any fort. The simple fact that they could take it and hold it while constantly complaining about lamers was enough to entertain a guild or two for hours on end. The flag said who owned it last and if a guild didn't like that they would take it away from them and brag about it so they'd come try to take it back.

Guild incentives are definitely a must. I'm sure it will be a looked at issue during the whole UC era. I was interested in brainstorming some actual ideas with guild territories. I'll post it when I sort of have a somewhat concrete idea.

The problem is that there is only so much people can do until they want events. With the community low in graal, any events team can't truly just fill in the hole. I don't think GC, or any events team, can manage to be a complement to the server's enjoyment rather than just be part of the features the server has to offer. Maybe that might be possible when there is tons of new quests/miniquests.

Maybe one day that might be possible when the marketing plan of Graal actually changes.

@ Bell.

I suppose early on in my graal "career" I would be syked to attack a fort that belong to another guild just for the hell of it. Of course, I was in my early teens at the time (I started in 02.)

Now adays I find myself less motivated to go and do stuff without there being a purpose. I'm almost 19 now (july 5th, woot,) so maybe it's due to being older. From what I've seen, most people who continue to play Classic (or at least have played during the past year or so) are 17+, not 14-17. Looking at real life, 14-17 are junior high/high school years where people randomly doing things for the hell of it is pretty common. But once you get past the age of 17, doing things for the hell of it doesn't fly as much. Personally, I like getting something out of what I do. So when I go to take MoD fort from another guild, I would like to get some kind of reward out of it other than now controlling the fort which I will now have to spend the next hour defending with a plethora of s key bashing.

Maybe that's just me, idk. But from what I've seen, Classic's (former?) playerbase is 17+ and therefor looks for a little more structure/reason than perhaps playerbases back in the day.

True enough, I spose you're right. I'm not much for button smashing these days myself. Keep in mind though that the focus is not only to retain old players but to encourage new players when considering Classic's needs.

Too true, but I don't think graal overall is attracting too many new players these days, especially with games like WoW and Warhammer online out.

Regardless, they still have to plan for it. All of you are going to continue to grow older and eventually leave.


Any comments about why I'm still here and I'm gonna slap the hell out of you.

Oh Bell, we know you love us too much to leave.

But you're still here.

I miss this so much, you just dont know....

These days died along with the playercount. There actually was some incentive back then, and it was being able to say that your guild was better then another. Nobody cares enough nowadays with the playercount so low.

I know where to find you!

D:i

I don't know about Classic...it's no longer 2000 and Zelda: A link to the Past is no longer only 10 years old but rather almost as old if not older than the average Graalian. Games have come a long way and sitting around doing nothing does get boring after a while. With competing gameplay styles from Era and Zodiac, I don't see how a server like Classic can survive without "modernizing" itself (which is kind of what Graal 2001 did...except in 2001 LOL).