In my opinion, Ibo should be paid for his work. Hes the only one who is helping the players within 24 hours or less, I think he should get a "piece of the cake" ;>

Because he gets payed. It's not the other way around.

K, let me add the word "still" then. Dont stop paying him ;o

OK it comes down to this. You pay for a account which uses their bandwidth. So when you purchase space to make your own server the bandwidth increases with it, plus the server space etc (stefan said it earlier). Why would you expect to get paid for doing something your merely using at a cost per year (kinda like a rental). It just don't make sense.

If you bought a gold/vip account, bought the space for your server and w/e else then don't expect to get paid...your merely renting the space for this from Cyberjourers and I don't think you a) realize this or b)care.

If your doing this then do it for fun, to see your ideas come to life. And besides you could always bug the owner of the server that your working on for a few items if you feel you should be paid for your time.

I think his defense is that he's 'making Graal' by being the reason anyone plays Graal... The only servers I think can even fit that description would be UN and Era.

Your making ur own server right? you kinda didn't say what you were doing here to make it cool.

I certainly don't mind not getting paid, I enjoy creating things. I plan to go into the video game development industry and Graal is letting me test my creativity and ideas.

lol this is why I go on forums, people can argue over such meaningless things.

Nobody said that such people would actually be the ones hired in such a hypothetical situation.

Pretty much standard forum fare of the time. Only a fairly long argument over gender (of course) stands out as being particularly irregular. I don't see why you would think that the topics make a difference.

Damn, I thought you were the ultimate at gender related arguements. Had no idea Kai even owned at that. D:

It was more than four years ago. I sucked like everybody else.

Kai could argue anything for two simple reasons:

-He was resourceful

-He was highly skilled in using language to his advantage


He probably went into a lot of arugements lacking many facts, and I'm sure people often knew more about topics than him, but he was not afraid to do the proper research needed.

I think he stated once that he's much better at debates online than in person, and that supports his two strengths. Time to research the topic, and time to word everything just right to make his points seem unbreakable.

This kind of thing isn't entirely wrong, but misses some important things and suggests that what we do on these forums is something that can be conflated with the so-called "sport" of "debating", or even worse, that we're just using some kind of linguistic "trick".

"Research" is kind of important but not nearly important as developing your rationality/analytical ability. I Googled way more back when I sucked (because I knew that I sucked) than I do now and I still sucked. To the extent linguistic ability is important, it's only important insofar as it allows you to put the "products of rationality" into appropriate words.

I've seen a lot of people have extremely rational arguements, and in the end, be completely right, but appear to be incorrect due to a lack of supporting facts, and the inability to word their thoughts in a coherent manner.

I'm not sure if what you're trying to say is that you needed to google more in the past because you lacked a lot of fundemental knowlege of arguing your point logically, so you tried to compensate for that by having all the facts on your side, but yeah.

Everything goes hand in hand, and if anything is missing, weakness in your arguement becomes apparent, but personally I feel Kai's two strongest points were his ability to gather relevant information in a short timespan, and then his ability to apply it in a way that made him seem almost an expert on every subject.

They are necessary but still peripheral. Rationality is the "core" of the process.

Once again you are reducing Kaimetsu's ability to some kind of smoke-and-mirrors trickery. In doing so you're saying that pretty much all I picked up from him was some kind of linguistic bag of tricks (seeing as I already had the googling down). Are you seriously suggesting this?

I'm Making you cry
 

Exactly.. :)

GO GET THEM STEFAN

I don't think I said at any point that those were his only abilities, I just stated that to me, those two stood out the most. Dunno why you're trying to pull more out of it like I had some underlying meaning.

And if you're saying that the skills to be able to use language extremely well and be a very effective researcher are nothing more than tricks, I don't know what to tell you really. I don't recall saying he was fooling us all into thinking he was good at arguing.

And I'm saying that those two are peripheral to Kaimetsu's (and my) ability, and that in saying that by claiming that they are central you (intentionally or unintentionally) "cheapen" what we do by saying that it's a result of "researching" (the ability of using other people's abilities) and making things "sound good".

You say that he makes things "seem" a certain way, suggesting that they aren't really the way he makes them seem they are (AKA he is using deception).

...

Feels like it was just yesterday I would cheer Kai on in religious debates. I used to AIM him sometimes and he eventually blocked me. :cry:

Uh, believe it or not, the entire basis of having solid logic and a solid arguement comes through research itself. You need to know logic, you need to train yourself to think and present a rational arguement, and you need to have facts to back your arguement lest it will be proven invalid. All this comes through researching topics, be it the topic under debate, or the topic of logic itself.

I'm cheapening what you do no more than I would by saying a basketball player's main strengths are his free throws and 3 point shots. By saying this, I'm not saying other parts of his game are not good, I'm saying those are the points that stand out to me.


Again, you're making everything I'm saying into some abstract version of my real meaning, seemingly on purpose.

I said he makes his points, thus his arguements, seem unbreakable. That's exactly what I meant. I'm not going to claim every single time Kai argued, he was totally correct in all or most of his points, because I'm sure this is not the case. However, his ability to present his arugement well probably has stopped people from being able to disprove him at times, too. If you want to call this deception and tricks, fine then. I just call it being a sound debater.

that made me laugh =)!

Oh Kaimetsu...

I used to know him back before a lot of you probably did on Bhala's AllGraal Inc forums.

I liked to pretend to disagree with him just to get a rise out of him.

The true reward for developing a server into a classic server is that you don't have to pay for because it is successful and attracts players to play the game.. That is if it is good content :)

Another thing, if you think you should be paid for developing a server... lol@unubcake... GET A JOB! :)

One can't just research "logic" and in doing so "learn" it. How do you know that whatever you're reading about "logic" isn't total nonsense? You know by thinking about it and analyzing it rationally. It's that part that's really important. The greatest purpose that the words you're reading can serve is to trigger this thinking. If you think about the topic without being triggered by researched data (by coming up with your own stuff to think about, though sometimes you have to have reached a fairly high level to do this effectively), you still improve your ability, whereas if you just read the stuff without thinking about it you do not.

And if the player has some even greater strength that is even more important to his game than his free throws and 3 point shots then cheapening what he does is exactly what you would be doing.

I'm not judging what you mean to say. I'm judging what you do say. I even said that you may be doing this unintentionally, but that doesn't mean you aren't doing it.

Deception is where you make things seem different from what they are (by the way, Kaimetsu did not make it seem as though he was "always right", and we can find cases of him saying he was mistaken about something.)

Of course not. You also need to, as you said, analyze the information, and furthermore, be able to apply it.

However, this doesnt counter the fact that you must research, through whatever methods, the topic in which you're arguing, and the logic needed to make your arguement sound.

I'd say no. I'd call it simply being incorrect in that case. The player may have another asset that's more important to his success, but if it is true that the free throws and 3 point shots are indeed impressive, you're still advocating the player as talented and strong at what he does. Being better at another part of the game isnt, by default, less "cheap" than any other part.



And I'm also sure we can find cases where he may not have been right, yet no one was able to effectivly disprove him due to the factors I mentioned.

I never stated an absolute either way, or claim that he seemed "always right".

I actually said he could make himself seem almost an expert on whatever he was arguing about, which is true, and again, supports the strengths I saw in him.

Could I be overlooking strengths he had? Quite possibly.
Does this mean I am cheapening him by saying I see other qualities? Not at all. It would simply mean that some things stood out to me more than others.

And, if you think about it, the two points I mentioned encompass a pretty broad range of skills.

No, you don't "have" to research the "logic" needed. You can if you want to and maybe it will help (by triggering thought), but you can develop your rationality just fine without doing so.

You're cheapening what he does by being incorrect about it.

But you're advocating that he's less strong and talented than he actually is.

This isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying you aren't recognizing the full extent of his ability.

Maybe, but so what? If he "wins" primarily by using linguistic cleverness and "research" two or three times, and "wins" primarily by using rationality the rest of the times then it's clear which factor is the most important.

That's why it's in quotes.

You said they were his "main strengths" which is not true.

It does when you say that they're his "two main" abilities and thus subordinate his other abilities to them.

They don't encompass rationality. Or to the extent that they do it is in that rationality supports them. They do not support it.

Here's an Idea : Go make TONS of great server get millions of active players and maybe, Stephane or Stefan would pay you for your hard work. But I think server's that make it to classic don't have to paid for by the owners no more instead Graal hosts them. (If there player count is up off course Dead servers should be RIPPED off Classic.

Haha to make this a reality I say go on strike! LOL get to Classic Servers and stop making content and stuff LOL XD
j/k

if u rly do this it's not my fault >_<