We complained about an inactive manager, now we are complaining about an inappropriate manager and a bad staff structure. They're pretty different issues, but one was the effect of something that you caused and the other was due to neglect. What do you think a manager does?

Obvious differences between being a player and being staff? Yeah? Then how come nearly ever player on Classic that is talking in this thread, if not EVERY SINGLE ONE is currently or has been staff at one or more points.

So you're basically admitting that the players of Classic know better than you do about their own server, to some extent, but because they're players (which.. well, see above points) their word is untrustworthy/less important to you? There was an obvious majority opinion on what the players were saying, and it was pretty obvious what the overall message was too.

You guys have the right to be angry, the decision was fuxed up and all, but arguing with Tig is a waste, you can break it down and have him realize his decision was wrong or whatever, but what will it do?

What we need is to understand the advantages of their decision and see what we can do to make this decision, even if you think it's complete bullocks, a smart one.

the puppet master reveals himself

You act as though I'm the only one who has those questions.

Just stop it, no one person is to blame. There's enough fighting and drama going on without you guys starting to attack each other too

Considering what the players have said, or hell, what most of everyone has been saying. Then considering the outcome of the month long 'review' and the response from the PWA members, mostly Tig, that followed.

All of this seems like one gigantic middle finger to the populace of Classic.

What outcome would of satisfied everyone?

pull the plug

No one outcome can satisfy everyone.
However, there was one big resounding message in this thread for the first 20 pages that seems to have been largely ignored.
I don't know how to answer that question on behalf of the majority without sounding like I'm 'tooting my own horn'.

you're joking, right?

I saw about 6 people say DC for manager, many of whom were probably manipulated by their master.

By all means, toot.

Are you really that mad that I helped your lifetime ban stick?

are you really that stupid that you're unable to go back and do a simple tally?

Pretty sure the PWA did a tally of players voting on who they would like to see as manager, and why they would like to see them as manager.

Certainly more than 6.

So how many people voted for DC outside of Uncommon Society?

Even if the PWA did this, why would I need to see their tally to go back and look at the first 20 pages of this thread, as DC suggested?

You're right, I was off.

Going back and looking at people who quite clearly endorsed you for being manager, the total is more like 3.

Okay bud.

Are you counting mine?

I don't know I didn't vote, nor did I hear any results from the voting. For your information though, the thought of DC becoming manager of Classic has mixed reviews from the people within US.

The reality of it is this, no one situation is or will be perfect. Can't we just let it go for a little while and see if the situation actually changes for the better before passing judgement on a ruling yet to be tested?

that was page 22.

I saw a bunch of posts like that all after the first 20 pages.

It's hilarious that DC would accuse someone else of raging when the past 6 pages have been him blindly insulting everyone involved in making Thor co-manager because he's upset his scheme of the month didn't work.

Aren't you the one that started this whole thread? Only to flip on your position of things when you got your 6-7th ban and finally got your lifetime one?

oh look, 3 (2 of which aren't even explicit) endorsements for you to manage.

I started this thread and I still believe in what I started it for.

It's not my fault you somehow warped my thread into an ill-fated campaign for manager.

I obviously said I believe Classic needs a new manager, but never once did I say it needed you.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been largely ignoring what you've been saying since you can't seem to spout retarded statements like how my whole 2 posts against the PWA about not arguing with players about the outcome, since it makes things worse, turns into me raging for 6 pages on them.

Good exaggeration there.

Edit:
This message is hidden because Mark Sir Link is on your ignore list.
Nice.

Too bad this post doesn't even make sense.

Blind rage

Who then?

I would honestly say with Kat back, he'd be the best choice.

And I haven't talked to him or seen his work in 4 years.

Don't forget my very specific opposition to it.


I have zero interest in such a position.

Most people don't know/realize this, but the core logic of the server from a scripting standpoint is COMPLETELY flawed. You literally cannot make any change without affecting a ridiculous amount of other things that've all been done the way whoever was doing them saw fit, rather than trying to have any sort of global structure and follow it. The fact that the HP problem described in another thread still exists and can't even be easily tracked down by myself or anyone else is a perfect example of this.

That sort of seems like a tangent, but it's just one of the reasons I personally wouldn't want anything to do with being responsible for the entire server. I can't even stand to go on there NOW with no official staff position.

In my opinion, the issue I described above is the TRUE cause of delays and issues on the server. It certainly has prevented me from having any interest in doing much of anything. I'm pretty sure that any of the actual scripters would agree. They just tolerate it. The problem gets worse with new additions being done in the same fashion: doing whatever is necessary to make it work without any real structure. This isn't necessarily their fault (although I wouldn't be at all surprised if at least some of them do things this way regardless) at this point, as you simply don't have a choice.

Real progress, despite it not being visible to the players, would be an INTELLIGENT reworking of the "core" with actual thought put into it that other people and scripts will be using the code. Not some huge amalgamation of random chunks of code that just "work" and were conceived of in a box where only the person who made them and only their scripts exist.

If this many people are unsatisfied with the PWA decision, what gives you guys the motive to defend your decision? The players asked for a review of management. Not a review to add another manager. The review should of been declared over because Storm is active right about now. Not sure what the future case may be with 2 managers.

I'm not sure how two people with full control over the server is going to work out. But I'm going to want to see so PWA can feel stupid about themselves, when the downplay comes out that we all are anticipating. PWA are looking stupid right now trying to defend themselves when a majority of the players are unsatisfied with the decision.

I have no problem with Storm or Thor, but 2 managers shouldn't be the case, on any server. Reasons already stated.

Just as many people opposed as supported, which I would have pointed out if DC had persisted.

Yes.

:-( Mine wasnt a serious suggestion.

I figured as much

Well its just safe to bet money on now classic being thrown into the ****ter again for a couple of more years. I wouldn't expect anything to good now that we have two people who are not capable of managing as our managers. Hoorah!

Sorry, I didn't see it. After I responded to Ramirez, I went to bed.

I could have walked around on Classic with the 2 or 3 people that were on each day over the past couple of weeks until my virtual feet bled, but no amount of walking around on the server was going to get my review input to be swayed by something like
"This tile looks like it's been inactive for 4 years"
but since merely being on the server didn't seem to be productively moving anything along, it was a good thing that the people still had a voice.

The moments in which I was able to get in contact with a tiny mass of people on Classic at one time, all I got were a 3-4 man strong set of "DC Supporters" who only moaned and complained how they wanted DC as Manager, but honestly avoided most of my questions by giving deflective answers, so I knew that DC would never get manager as he were one of the people in the room, as well. You can't hope to reach the top if you deflect everything.

This, in-turn, left only 1 real aspect to fulfil which was to just speak to those who would speak, and Bell summed that up pretty well. When given the chance, I had quite a few people simply say "I'll post it on the forum thread later" who never did, and never showed up again.

While I have already stated that I see where people are coming from on the Duel Manager thing, and even showed you my opinion on it, they're big boys. I am sure that now they're both mature enough to (if they so decided) discuss between each other if there should be a "Co-Manager" instead of "2 Managers" and further decide which of the two should take up that position. That, in my opinion, is now entirely up to them.

I personally found this to be very bothersome. You must have only had the most positive of experiences with Storm. To himself, most actions of his are justifiable, and the ones that aren't aren't severe enough to warrant anything negative being done. So no, he's not capable. This is pretty evident by the fact that he hasn't stepped down on his own.

Feel free to point out that this is my opinion of his actions. You'd be right, but what, exactly, DOES it take before it's severe enough without just plain being "corrupt"? There is no clear rule to go by here, it's all based on opinion of severity. Clearly myself and a lot of others think that what has transpired IS enough. The time involved is BEYOND ridiculous.

I think I might have called the outcome of this thread somewhere... but before I make some long winded posts to further sidetrack this thread, I want to get my facts straight first...

First off, I want to see the results (by account name) from the poll house on Classic, preferably posted by Storm, or a member of the PWA (I don't want to run the risk of the results being tampered with). Just post the list of who voted for what option. I do this because I call the validity of the poll results into question. I spent some time 'idling' in the poll house and seen a number of players warped in and told to vote against the PWA decision. I would even bet that there is a second or even third account used by the 'whiners' to further influence the results.

Secondly, I'd like to know why some of the issues players are bringing up now regarding the validity of the PWA review weren't addressed from the very beginning (such as "the PWA don't play Classic, how can they make a decision").

Thirdly, I'd like to point out that the two primary 'whiners' had some personal agenda regarding who should replace Storm, and insist on causing this drama after the decision (with the help of a lacky or two).

Reading this thread is very disappointing.
I really hope that all of you will find a way to accept the PWA's decision, and try to work together for the better of Classic.

I'm probably going to be rambling again, but after seeing 4 pages added since I last checked this thread this morning, it would seemingly fit in.

Look. What's done is done. The PWAs have made their decision, right or wrong, and we have to stick with it. The players asked for a review of management, hoping for the removal of storm. The PWAs decided that, upon 'extensive' review, that storm could indeed still do his job, but he needed some help from someone a bit more active. Thus the solution of two managers was decided upon. As far as I know, these are the facts.

Now obviously some people have questioned the way in which this review occurred. They got opinions from some people, but not all. They got opinions from some admins, but not all. But lets be realistic here. It'd be nearly impossible to get the opinion of every single person who played classic. Apparently some admins were left out by accident, though I'm not sure how that can happen. Then again, we all make mistakes.

The problem I found with the review is that when the PWAs asked 'who would be a good manager', they really left a lot of open room. Who exactly was qualified? Who exactly wanted the job in the first place? What would that person actually (or at least promise) do as manager? The problem I saw is that many people knew they wanted a new manager, but weren't exactly sure who they wanted. Some people, such as DC, actively promoted themselves and listed a few things they would try to do. Other people suggested Thor, stryker, kat, or sometimes rufus. The problem was, most of these candidates never posted (at least that I saw) their credentials or their plans for the server, if they wanted the job at all.

So as far as I can tell, we had the majority of the playerbase wanting a new manager, but wasn't exactly sure who. Thus the PWAs were left scratching their heads, and eventually settled on the decision that they did.

IMO, though the 2 manager system could work out, it probably wasn't the best solution. In a review of management, the PWAs should review whether the manager in question can do his job or not. If the answer is yes, then that person should be left as manager. If the answer is no, then that manager needs to be removed completely. Then, they need to gather up all the qualified people and see if they are interested in the job. Of those that are, they need to hold a week-long poll/discussion about who the people think the best manager would be. The potentials would present their plan in a thread, and both the PWAs and players would vote for the next manager. If they came to the same conclusion, then we would have a new manager. If not, they would need to see why the people thought person A was more qualified than Person B, who was picked by the PWAs, and then discuss it more and then come to a decision.

At least, thats how I think a review should go. The players, if presented a list, should know who they'd want to take their server into the future. The PWAs, if presented a list, should be able to figure out (with investigations) who the best person would be. That's not how it was done, and its too late to change it.

Let us forget about these PWAs and focus on our future. If we work hard enough, perhaps we'll never have to ask them for their 'assistance' again, since apparently all they create is massive forum arguments. I respect the PWAs and all, since holding a review of a server they don't play certainly isn't easy. But with results and backlash like this, maybe they need to rethink how they handle these reviews. Nonetheless, we must now make due with what we have, which is two managers.

Who are your two primary whiners? I think I've exposed more flaws in the process than anyone and I had no agenda.

Still haven't been offered any explanation as to why I was completely overlooked on two aspects of this review. Apologies are cheap, reasons why are worth more.